I just don't get it (Iraq rant ahead. You've been warned)

JazzManJim

On the Downbeat
Joined
Sep 12, 2001
Posts
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To begin, I believe that some sort of armed response to remove Hussein is necessary and has been for at least four years now.

That being said, I read carefully the statement Colin Powell gave to the UN Security Council, as well as the responses from the nations on that Council. I've seen the photos and heard the taped conversations. I believe that, though they are not as black and white as some might like, they accent the point the administration has been making pretty nicely.

But I dont understand something here, and I've tried very hard to do so. How can someone - anyone - be in favor of yet more inspections and giving Hussein more time to do what he's spent since 1981 doing nearly withouth pause?

There are currently 17 UN Resolutions in effect, each one geared all or in part with disarming Hussein in the face of his using some of the most horrible weapons I can imagine and using them against helpless civilians. But he's had time to disarm and he's had the pressure of the entire world against him in every way but militarily. He's proven without dispute that he is easily capable of evading, delaying, and threatening every inspection team which has ever entered his country. He doesn't necessarily hide his efforts either.

Obviously, any inspection program we've yet imagined has not worked and there's no logical reason to expect that a return to any of them will work again. Countries like France, Germany, and Russia have called for something called "intrusive inspections" yet Resolution 1441 has been the most intrusive demand short of force of arms. They've not even proven willing to follow through with that resolution, since Hussein has clearly not done what the Resolution demanded. He has lied repeatedly and we, and the world, have allowed it, while millions have been slaughtered.

What more intrusive inspection program can we devise? What will work short of going in there and destroying the weapons whether he wants it done or not. We in the world have offered him chance after chance to do this the nice way and all he's done is laughed in our faces and retained and used his illegal weaponry. I just don't see anything else beyond force of arms that will do what must be done.
 
You simply have to look at fruit to know the tree...Saddam has repeated commited genocide against his own people and has been at war with his neighbors...what other proof do you need. I expect the Russians and China to complain...its the super power game...but fuck France (although they have always been week sniffling cowards) and Germany those ingrates, I guess they still admire murdering dictators. I say we go in and do our thing and then lets boycott all German cars and goods in this country and lets start putting a tarriff on Canadian goods as well...since we have to pay for and fight for their security as they hide behind our backs. I truly believe in peace, i hate to see any one suffer and die, but freedom and has a price, a heavy price...its called war, and if your just and strong, you will eventually win...
 
I think Colon Powell and GWB got spanked today at the UN.

Diplomacy is an art the USA has never really been all that good at.

Expecting to tell the UN they are nearly irrelevant as a way to persuade them to take your side, for example, is not generally considered a smart move in diplomatic circles.

If you read the media and government statements from the other member countries of the UN Security Council, you'll also find that the prevailing view internationally is that while Iraq is in breach of Resolution 1441, they are not as yet proven to be in material breach of the Resolution.

This explains why the parties with cooler heads on the Council...the ones without a vested and emotional interest...are recommending that more Inspectors be sent in...to see if the circumstantial evidence provided by Powell to the Security Council (instead of to Hanns Blix weeks ago or as it became available to the USA) today has legs.

If it does, if there are proven material breaches...the UN will discuss and agree on appropriate measures.

But the UN's not about bombing the shit out of Bagdhad or shooting Hussein in the head.

As far as I know, the UN hasn't started a war yet...but they've helped several end.

I think Colon Powell and GWB got spanked today at the UN.

Lance
 
Re: I think Colon Powell and GWB got spanked today at the UN.

Lancecastor said:
Diplomacy is an art the USA has never really been all that good at.

Expecting to tell the UN they are nearly irrelevant as a way to persuade them to take your side, for example, is not generally considered a smart move in diplomatic circles.

If you read the media and government statements from the other member countries of the UN Security Council, you'll also find that the prevailing view internationally is that while Iraq is in breach of Resolution 1441, they are not as yet proven to be in material breach of the Resolution.

This explains why the parties with cooler heads on the Council...the ones without a vested and emotional interest...are recommending that more Inspectors be sent in...to see if the circumstantial evidence provided by Powell to the Security Council (instead of to Hanns Blix weeks ago or as it became available to the USA) today has legs.

If it does, if there are proven material breaches...the UN will discuss and agree on appropriate measures.

But the UN's not about bombing the shit out of Bagdhad or shooting Hussein in the head.

As far as I know, the UN hasn't started a war yet...but they've helped several end.

I think Colon Powell and GWB got spanked today at the UN.

Lance

That proves it. You definitely have it.
 
Re: I think Colon Powell and GWB got spanked today at the UN.

Lancecastor said:
Diplomacy is an art the USA has never really been all that good at.

Expecting to tell the UN they are nearly irrelevant as a way to persuade them to take your side, for example, is not generally considered a smart move in diplomatic circles.

If you read the media and government statements from the other member countries of the UN Security Council, you'll also find that the prevailing view internationally is that while Iraq is in breach of Resolution 1441, they are not as yet proven to be in material breach of the Resolution.

This explains why the parties with cooler heads on the Council...the ones without a vested and emotional interest...are recommending that more Inspectors be sent in...to see if the circumstantial evidence provided by Powell to the Security Council (instead of to Hanns Blix weeks ago or as it became available to the USA) today has legs.

If it does, if there are proven material breaches...the UN will discuss and agree on appropriate measures.

But the UN's not about bombing the shit out of Bagdhad or shooting Hussein in the head.

As far as I know, the UN hasn't started a war yet...but they've helped several end.

I think Colon Powell and GWB got spanked today at the UN.

Lance

Diplomacy is a polite way of lying and manipulating...at thats exactly what the UN is all about and why it's a joke..
 
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My problem with the pro-war rhetoric is this.... when Saddam was actually in the process of committing acts of genocide (see Kurds circa 1993) we did nothing to intervene. The sanctions we have imposed on Iraq over the last twelve years have led to the deaths of somewhere in the neighborhood of a million to a million and a half Iraqi civilians. Now that Saddam is not committing any acts of genocide, why is it so important that we go to war now?
 
Re: Re: I think Colon Powell and GWB got spanked today at the UN.

sufisaint said:
Diplomacy is a polite way of lying and manipulating...at thats exactly what the UN is all about and why it's a joke..


Six months ago or so I wondered if the USA was heading towards a return to isolationism...Ishmael smacked me down and said that simply wasn't realistic.

But I think your view is one that's shared by many Americans and probably your President.

So perhaps you should close all your Embassies worldwide, recall all your troops everywhere, give the UN their Notice to get the fuck out of NYC and live amongst yourselves for a few decades and see how you make out.

Surely you don't really think the rest of the world is always going to do whatever the USA says...do you?

Are you that simple-minded as a nation?


Lance
 
sufisaint said:
I expect the Russians and China to complain...its the super power game...but fuck France (although they have always been week sniffling cowards) and Germany those ingrates

Not sure what's up with the Germans, but 70% of Iraqi oil contracts are held by France and Russia.

I'm surprised that hasn't been mentioned more.
 
I appreciate your views Lance, but please don't liken me to our president. Sadly, I find that insulting.
 
Lasher said:
Not sure what's up with the Germans, but 70% of Iraqi oil contracts are held by France and Russia.

I'm surprised that hasn't been mentioned more.
The Germans sell them technology.
 
Re: Re: Re: I think Colon Powell and GWB got spanked today at the UN.

Lancecastor said:
Six months ago or so I wondered if the USA was heading towards a return to isolationism...Ishmael smacked me down and said that simply wasn't realistic.

But I think your view is one that's shared by many Americans and probably your President.

So perhaps you should close all your Embassies worldwide, recall all your troops everywhere, give the UN their Notice to get the fuck out of NYC and live amongst yourselves for a few decades and see how you make out.

Surely you don't really think the rest of the world is always going to do whatever the USA says...do you?

Are you that simple-minded as a nation?


Lance

*hic*
 
Lasher said:
Not sure what's up with the Germans, but 70% of Iraqi oil contracts are held by France and Russia.

I'm surprised that hasn't been mentioned more.

If America knew they were about to put their sons at risk to steal oil from Europe...they might just say "no".

It's better with a maniacal madman to hold up on camera I think...yes?
 
Lancecastor said:
If America knew they were about to put their sons at risk to steal oil from Europe...they might just say "no".

It's better with a maniacal madman to hold up on camera I think...yes?

*hic*
 
funspirit said:
My problem with the pro-war rhetoric is this.... when Saddam was actually in the process of committing acts of genocide (see Kurds circa 1993) we did nothing to intervene. The sanctions we have imposed on Iraq over the last twelve years have led to the deaths of somewhere in the neighborhood of a million to a million and a half Iraqi civilians. Now that Saddam is not committing any acts of genocide, why is it so important that we go to war now? [/QUOTE

We were watching them do it through the sights of our weapons but bush Sr. did not have the balls to go against the UN that said stop..... it was an absolute disgrace what we did to the kurds and demonstrates the cowardice of diplomacy...
 
Someone apparently hasn't read Hans Blix's report to the UN. He really, really should before he says "if" in connection with material breaches.

Here's what Mr. Blix has to say:

"Iraq has declared that it only produced VX on a pilot scale, just a few [metric] tons and that the quality was poor and the product unstable. Consequently, it was said, that the agent was never weaponized. Iraq said that the small quantity of agent remaining after the Gulf War was unilaterally destroyed in the summer of 1991.

UNMOVIC, however, has information that conflicts with this account. There are indications that Iraq had worked on the problem of purity and stabilization and that more had been achieved than has been declared. Indeed, even one of the documents provided by Iraq indicates that the purity of the agent, at least in laboratory production, was higher than declared.

There are also indications that the agent was weaponizied. In addition, there are questions to be answered concerning the fate of the VX precursor chemicals, which Iraq states were lost during bombing in the Gulf War or were unilaterally destroyed by Iraq."

And:

have mentioned the issue of anthrax to the Council on previous occasions and I come back to it as it is an important one.

Iraq has declared that it produced about 8,500 liters of this biological warfare agent, which it states it unilaterally destroyed in the summer of 1991. Iraq has provided little evidence for this production and no convincing evidence for its destruction.

There are strong indications that Iraq produced more anthrax than it declared, and that at least some of this was retained after the declared destruction date. It might still exist. Either it should be found and be destroyed under UNMOVIC supervision or else convincing evidence should be produced to show that it was, indeed, destroyed in 1991."

You really might want to take a look at it, even though it is couched in diplomat-ese. You might see that what Powell said today has already been standing up through Mr. Blix's testimony.
 
Screw all of these fucked up bleeding heart liberals!! They are the reason this world is as messed up as it is....
Just go in and kill the SOB and get it over with.
 
Strange man said:
Screw all of these fucked up bleeding heart liberals!! They are the reason this world is as messed up as it is....
Just go in and kill the SOB and get it over with.
A voice or reason.........
 
Resolution 1441 named Iraq in specific material breach of all the other Resolutions, especially those demanding disarmament. That's one large material breach.

That Iraq has, to date, not done a single requirement of Resolution 1441 puts them in further material breach - by definition. There need be no further declaration of materian breach nor additional resolution for the consequences outlined in 1441 to take place.

Now, from Hans Blix, "The burden remains on Iraq -- not on the United Nations, not on the United States -- the burden remains on Iraq to cooperate fully and for Iraq to prove to the international community whether it does or does not have weapons of mass destruction. We are convinced they do until they prove to us otherwise."

Obviously, 1441 has been violated in every respect.

So the question remains, having declared in the strongest possible terms what Hussein must do and having seen him not only ignore those terms but act specifically against them, what other action aside from force of arms exist to remove these weapons from his hands?

I'm not talking about reasons why. There are ample reasons why Hussein must be disarmed and removed form power. That's beyond argument at this point to anyone who purports to think critically.
 
Strange man said:
Screw all of these fucked up bleeding heart liberals!! They are the reason this world is as messed up as it is....
Just go in and kill the SOB and get it over with.

Thanks for your support, General Haig.
 
Killermuffin- I wasn't debating whether I think its all true or not. I was trying to make a point about why we feel we have to attack Iraq right this minute.
 
funspirit said:
I was trying to make a point about why we feel we have to attack Iraq right this minute.

Should we wait another 12 years?

I suppose Saddam will just die on his own eventually.
 
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