I heard 2 girls talking today

[carsonshepherd]

in one of my classes. They're probably both around 19. They were talking about how they both hated school, didn't know what they wanted to do, and thought they might just become stay-home moms and "start popping out kids."

I hope they were joking, but fear they weren't.

I wanted to ask them what they might do if their husbands left them for another woman, hit them, or died and left them with the kids, but I kept my mouth shut.

What are people teaching these kids nowadays?

 

[starrkers]

I'd really love to know when parenthood as a career choice became so wrong.

Why shouldn't they want to be mothers and care for their children instead of paying someone else to do it for them?

There was a time when mothering was revered as a worthwhile occupation, now it is reviled. Why?

 

[carsonshepherd]

I'd really love to know when parenthood as a career choice became so wrong.

Why shouldn't they want to be mothers and care for their children instead of paying someone else to do it for them?

There was a time when mothering was revered as a worthwhile occupation, now it is reviled. Why?

I'm not reviling motherhood as a choice. I'm only saying it's rather shortsighted to think motherhood negates the need for education. I'm not going to defend my statement. I think it's appalling that these girls think "popping out kids" means they don't have to be responsible for their lives, and that some man will take care of them.

 

[3113]

in one of my classes. They're probably both around 19. They were talking about how they both hated school, didn't know what they wanted to do, and thought they might just become stay-home moms and "start popping out kids."

Well, they're probably thinking what a lot of girls who pick that option often think: that someone else (the husband) will take care of them and give them a secure life, and that, somehow, taking care of kids will be easier than working at a job, or completing college for that matter. In short, the lazy way out.

They may also believe, as many 19-year-olds who want kids do, that kids mean instant love. Children and husband will love you, and you don't have to do any work to earn that love. Being the wife/mom just entitles you to it, like it entitles you to be financially supported.

I'm doubtful that either girl knows how hard it is to be a stay-at-home mom, or that they realize that with the current economy, it's hard for even middle class moms to stay at home rather than work and bring in a second, much needed income to pay the bills. Even if this is what they really, really want, they may not be able to have it.

 

[starrkers]

Even if this is what they really, really want, they may not be able to have it.

And that has to be the saddest indictment of the economic situation for most of the western world.

 

[carsonshepherd]

Well, they're probably thinking what a lot of girls who pick that option often think: that someone else (the husband) will take care of them and give them a secure life, and that, somehow, taking care of kids will be easier than working at a job, or completing college for that matter. In short, the lazy way out.

They may also believe, as many 19-year-olds who want kids do, that kids mean instant love. Children and husband will love you, and you don't have to do any work to earn that love. Being the wife/mom just entitles you to it, like it entitles you to be financially supported.

I'm doubtful that either girl knows how hard it is to be a stay-at-home mom, or that they realize that with the current economy, it's hard for even middle class moms to stay at home rather than work and bring in a second, much needed income to pay the bills. Even if this is what they really, really want, they may not be able to have it.

I agree, and that's why I'm hoping they were joking. Surely they know these things.... I hope...

 

[carsonshepherd]

And that has to be the saddest indictment of the economic situation for most of the western world.

True, especially that decent child care can cost as much as a lot of jobs pay.

 

[3113]

I'd really love to know when parenthood as a career choice became so wrong.

I think, as Carson said in his response, that this is not what he was implying at all. In point of fact, NOT having kids and NOT being a parent is still the option that comes more under fire than parenthood. The one thing people who do not plan to ever have kids always get asked is "So, when are you having kids?" It is assumed that there is something very wrong with you if you don't want to be a parent...not vice versa.

Carson's dismay here is valid, because these are 19 year olds. And 19 year olds rarely know what they really want in life. If a girl or a guy doesn't get an education, doesn't sample the job market how are they going to know what is out there for them? How are they going to know, for sure, what their passion is? Whether that passion is to be a fireman or an artist or a stay-at-home mom/dad?

Making one thing your goal because you THINK it's an easy goal is very different than finding a true passion and pursuing it. I think Carson's point is well taken. These do not sound like girls who have decided that motherhood is their one true passion and they will pursue it no matter the pitfalls, problems, highs-lows. My husband's mother was a woman who wanted only one thing: Kids. Once she had them she worked herself to death for them, because they were all she ever wanted and they were her passion and she put them before anything else. If these two girls can't say that they want the same, if they can't say that they will do ANYTHING to have and raise those kids right, then parenthood is NOT yet the career for them.

You might as well substitute the word "writer" for stay-at-home mom for all the serious thought they're giving it. "I'll become writer and publish best selling novels..." Easy, right?

 

[carsonshepherd]

And 19 year olds rarely know what they really want in life. If a girl or a guy doesn't get an education, doesn't sample the job market how are they going to know what is out there for them? How are they going to know, for sure, what their passion is? Whether that passion is to be a fireman or an artist or a stay-at-home mom/dad?

I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life until I was 32. Because of that, I didn't take the opportunity I had when I was 18 to get my education, and I have to do it now when I'm 15 years behind where I could've been.

 

[starrkers]

You're both making the assumption that these girls haven't thought it through and see motherhood as the easy option.
Maybe they do, but they may also have wanted nothing else since childhood, they may already look after younger siblings.

You say childless couples are forever asked when they'll have kids. It is assumed that they want kids.

Did you also know that stay at home mothers are forever asked when they're going back to work?

 

[carsonshepherd]

Did you also know that stay at home mothers are forever asked when they're going back to work?

If you were asked this question, what would you say?

 

[starrkers]

If you were asked this question, what would you say?

I have been, many times
I say I already have a job, thank you.

Now, I'm coming over far more argumentative than I mean to be, so I think it's time I buggered off for awhile.

 

[SensualCealy]

Carson, be a good friend to those girls and give them a piece of advice from me will you?

I didnt know what I wanted to do after highschool, so I just worked the jobs I could find that were full-time. I got married at 20 and Hubby and I decided that I would stay home and raise the kids until they went to school full-time. Well because I didnt have a post secondary education I had little to choose from when that time came. So in '98 I went to floral design school, got my papers and that was about it. In our town there isn't a market for florists (wont go into that). So I hummed and hawed for a couple years doing this and that until finally last year going back to school at 38. Was it fun? Well ya kinda, was it humiliating- yes!

I felt like I was nothing more than a Mom. I was the loser that did nothing with her life (except raise two good kids) that had to go back to school so we could have enough money to put our kids through university.

My husband has an awesome job, does it cover all our costs, no. We have gone without alot over the last 20 yrs and some days I feel like IM the reason we went without. That isnt the case, but if I had been working, we would have alot more to show for the last 20 yrs than we actually do. We were able to manage until about 5 yrs ago, the kids getting older, cost of everything going up etc. Times are really tough now specially since Ive graduated and still don't have a full-time job.

What would I do differently. Get my education after highschool! Work for atleast 10 yrs then have kids. I think this would give you a career to fall back on, or a good base to make decisions on after the kids are in school.

Motherhood is the ultimate sacrifice as I think of it. But it was MY choice. I want my daughter to feel like she is needed, that she is a piece of something bigger. Once she has that established, I sure would like some grandkids, but after she is 28ish. lol

Without a post secondary education and at least 5 yrs experience, good luck! Minimum wage will be the only thing they will be able to obtain without it.

Maybe copy and print this and hand it to them...if they change their mind, Ive done something to help someone else.
C

ps, I love being a stay at home mom (and wouldn't change much of what we did), I know my kids really well but some days...

 

[SensualCealy]

If you were asked this question, what would you say?

My job right now is to ensure that my children are brought up with respect for others and to be viable members of society that do not rely on others to get what they want or need in life.

I know people hate it when we say...how much do you think stay at home moms are worth?

Per year services...
Maid- $30,000
Chef-$45,000
Laundry service- $30,000 approx.
Diaper service- $5,000
Chaufer service- $35,000
Personal Shopper- $40,000
Educational Assistant- $40,000
Therapist-$55,000
Medical Assistant- $35,000

Shall I continue?
C

 

[Katyusha]

You say childless couples are forever asked when they'll have kids. It is assumed that they want kids.

Did you also know that stay at home mothers are forever asked when they're going back to work?

Both are true, and both piss me off. Society has impressions of what people SHOULD do with their lives and don't care what people WANT to do with their lives. A married couple HAS to have kids. I can't tell you how often our parents ask my husband and me when we're going to have kids, and I can't tell you how often my mother's told me that my fertility's going to start declining and soon I'll be too old (I'm 28).

I also know women who've been stay-at-home mothers and they felt like the whole world looked at them as lazy good-for-nothing freeloaders who were nothing but a drain on their husbands' incomes.

I don't understand why it is that people have this need to tell others what they SHOULD be doing with their lives. I agree that these two girls should finish their educations if for no other reason than everyone does, in fact, need a fallback measure should their plans fail them at some point. But beyond that...if being mothers is what they really really want, then who's to say they shouldn't?

 

[neonlyte]

In UK, we are almost reaching the stage where it will be forbidden to be a stay at home mum unless you have independent wealth - a husband qualifies but only if he brings home enough money.

Government is proposing that single mums should find employment once their youngest child is aged seven - training for this 'future employment' will be compulsory in the two years before the youngest reaches seven.

Child care, in UK, is horrendously expensive, 300$ - 450$ per child per week, effectively a higher cost than an unskilled part-time job making child care only affordable to full time 'career' mothers.

In Portugal, we have day nurseries on almost every corner. It is part of the social culture that your infant children spends time with their grandparents or in day nursery. The system doesn't appear to disadvantage Portuguese families.

Unlike UK politicians, don't see any problem with being a mother as a career choice, it would be sensible to try not to be a single mother but that is not always avoidable. It is anecdotally true that in the UK, single motherhood became a choice because it was a means of securing state provided housing, and consequently benefits for raising a child. It would be nice to think politicians might consider the structural faults within UK society that make single motherhood a preferential choice for some young girls.

 

[3113]

You say childless couples are forever asked when they'll have kids. It is assumed that they want kids.

Did you also know that stay at home mothers are forever asked when they're going back to work?

Yes I do, and all this proves is that there's assholes on both sides. So people are tackless and they get you angry--on the opposite side, they get me angry. That doesn't mean I assume that any parents talking about having kids are attacking my choices. So why assume that those of us questioning the commitment to parenthood (at this point) of these two girls are tackless assholes attacking your choices? You know us better than that.

IF these 19 years olds had younger siblings and all their life the one thing they'd dreamed about was having kids, and this was already their passion, they would NOT be in school talking about it. They'd be married and having kids.

I think our assumption is perfectly valid given the evidence.

 

[starrkers]

Yes I do, and all this proves is that there's assholes on both sides. So people are tackless and they get you angry--on the opposite side, they get me angry. That doesn't mean I assume that any parents talking about having kids are attacking my choices. So why assume that those of us questioning the commitment to parenthood (at this point) of these two girls are tackless assholes attacking your choices? You know us better than that.

IF these 19 years olds had younger siblings and all their life the one thing they'd dreamed about was having kids, and this was already their passion, they would NOT be in school talking about it. They'd be married and having kids.

I think our assumption is perfectly valid given the evidence.

Oh give me a break.
They're feckless because they're talking about having kids, while still getting an education.
If they already had kids at 19 you'd be putting them down for not getting "a decent education" to pass on to the kids.
And I never said anything about tactless assholes, or assumed you were attacking me. Guess I was wrong.
For the record, I had no idea whether you had kids or not before this thread, and I could care less whether you choose to have them or not in the future. Or whether you return to work after having them. That is entirely your business.
My point was, and still is, that motherhood is an undervalued, underrated and generally poorly received choice of occupation.

 

[3113]

In regards to stay-at-home motherhood and the economic situation, while I agree that, in our modern world, the situation isn't good, we have to keep in mind that stay-at-home motherhood, as we know it, is a very unique and recent thing in human history.

Though most of human history--the very rich excepted--there was no such thing as the modern stay-at-home mom. There was a family, that might be extended (grandparents, aunts, uncles), kids who were working on the farm or in the house or on the job (farming or a trade) by age five, child care in the form of older siblings looking after younger, and mom doing HER job, that being maintaining the household and making babies. Now without washing machines, dishwashers, electricity, heat, indoor plumbing, refrigerators--and with the need, in most cases to grow, prepare and/or butcher your own food, spin your own cloth, sew your own clothes...that was one hell of a job.

My point is that we can complain about parents having to work rather than being able to stay at home with the kids--or that it's important for parents to be at home with the kids rather than working. But, frankly, that's not the way it's usually been. It's only in the last, oh, 75 years that we've created the nuclear family with the mom whose primary job is to look after the kids, rather than doing her share to keep the family alive (milking cows, making clothes, etc).

The stay-at-home mom prior to the 20th century was, for all intents and purposes, a working woman who only looked after the kids part-time at best. It was up to the older kids, or an old aunt or grandma to do more "full" time watching over the little kids...and that wasn't that long a watch either since by age 7 most kids were working, too.

I'm not saying we should go back to that, but I do think we should keep in mind that the "ideal" here--a stay-at-home mom (or dad) who has time to really watch over the kids, help them with homework, take them to piano lessons, etc.--hasn't been around for long. Most moms, historically, were working mothers, holding down a "job" to keep the family afloat. And it may be that we're back to that, to a lot of moms having to work part time, because our ideal isn't an easy ideal for the majority of parents, at least not if the family consists of just mom/dad.

 

[3113]

Oh give me a break.
They're feckless because they're talking about having kids, while still getting an education.

No. They're feckless because they're talking about giving up the education to be stay-at-home moms. This indicates to me that they're not sure what they want. Because if kids were what they wanted, there's be no need to talk about it. They'd be doing it. There are 19 year old ballerinas who are in ballet because that's what they want in all the world--they surrender education, a normal life, to be on stage dancing. People that age CAN make a decision about something they really want, and if they do, it's usually a done deal.

This is why I doubt their commitment to the idea.

If they already had kids at 19 you'd be putting them down for not getting "a decent education" to pass on to the kids.

No. Not if that is the thing they most wanted in the world. My husband's mother had no education. Kids were all she wanted. She was a great mother, a great woman, who worked very hard to raise her kids right. I have nothing but respect for her and her choices.

I do apologize, however, if you feel I attacked you. I respect your posts and opinions and, no, you didn't say anything about tackless assholes, I did. My feeling was that you were misjudging my view on the topic because of such tackless assholes who are exactly the sort to say that 19 year olds who have kids can't pass down a descent education to them. I feared you were lumping me in with them and their tackless judgements about motherhood.

Guess I was wrong.

If you think I'm attacking you for being a parent, for your choice to be a stay-at-home mom, then you are wrong. If you think I'm arguing with you about your judgement of our assessment of these girls, then, IMHO, you're overstating the situation. It isn't an attack, it's a disagreement.

For the record, I had no idea whether you had kids or not before this thread, and I could care less whether you choose to have them or not in the future. Or whether you return to work after having them. That is entirely your business.

Then we're entirely on the same page. It's no one's business what people choose--but this question isn't about these girls making a "valueless" choice. Is motherhood underrated? Yes, of course. But that doesn't mean that we're saying that if these girls pick it they're valueless. It simply means that we don't think they should choose it before they know what value it really does have for them.

Frankly, I'm mystified. Why should I be made to feel that I'm underrating mothers in general just because I have reservations about a pair of 19 year olds, with 20 childbearing years ahead of them, wanting to be moms right now? They haven't time to be sure that this is really and truly what they want? Why don't YOU have reservations? You know better than anyone that once they have that baby, they're not going to be able to take it back. You can drop in and out of college, you can't drop in and out of motherhood.

And that, in a nutshell, is why I'd agree with Carson that they should be asked "Are you sure?" Not because stay-at-home motherhood means nothing, but because it means so much. It's not a career to jump into lightly or because you think it's going to be easier than getting an education.

 

[Handprints]

In UK, we are almost reaching the stage where it will be forbidden to be a stay at home mum unless you have independent wealth - a husband qualifies but only if he brings home enough money.

Government is proposing that single mums should find employment once their youngest child is aged seven - training for this 'future employment' will be compulsory in the two years before the youngest reaches seven.

One of my best friends just got a pamphlet from her MP about this: she's bringing up two on her own and working from home as a consultant until she thinks they're (and she's) ready for her to be less available. She has an accounting degree, an MBA, and her former employers are forming a disorderly queue for her carefully-rationed services. She's wondering exactly what one-size-fits-all training is going to serve both her and someone who left with O-levels, since there doesn't appear to be any alternative to accepting the training...

Best,
H

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I work in human services. As recently as 3 years ago the industry was almost entirely mature adults with families and some life under their belt. Now it's almost entirely female kiddies fresh out of college, with no idea of how they want to spend their adult lives, and no real-world experiences.

They annoy the crap out of mature women because their deeds and counsel are based on idyllic, utopian pish posh they learned in college. Or they cant be less interested in the work because their minds are on mating.

People can combine education and life. Its very doable. Just dont turn the babies loose on the world until they know which way is up.

 

[SensualCealy]

I think we have lost touch with what this thread is about:

Two young ladies thinking they rather take the easy route and go have babies instead of get an education and contribute to their success.

The misconception that 'going and having babies' is the easy way out of having to work outside of the home for a living is the part I want to clarify for them.

I loved being a stay at home mom, but you can only do that if your spouse can carry an income to cover all the expenses- many don't anymore.
And frankly, in this day and age, who wants to be married to a girl without an education? You need a basic college course to be considered for any job worth going to, and that isn't enough some times.

Being a mom is one of the hardest jobs one could take on, it shouldn't be taken lightly.

C

 

[Missdemeanour]

I think that the government (here in the UK at least) make the whole 'popping out kids' an easy option for a lot of teenagers, they get preferential housing and benefit while those in genuine need of housing get pushed back down the list. Just sayin!

 

[SensualCealy]

Honestly, I think it should be manditory that you have to take a series of parenting classes before considering having a child. What could it hurt?
C