"I hate Prophecies": A Rant

[3113]

So I just went to see the new "Harry Potter" movie and I'd like to rant (again, as I think I've done this before, so bear with me) about something common--and, to me, tiresome--to fantasy tales: the prophecy.

Let me first say that I recognize this as a matter of taste. For example, there are people who hate romantic comedies because they're predictable from that first moment that the girl bumps into the guy. I understand this, nevertheless, I find them relaxing and enjoyable stories. You sit back with the popcorn and go with the flow for two hours. Likewise, I know there are lots of people who enjoy "prophecy" stories. Some kid is told they'll be the next king, and sure enough, he's the one who ends up pulling the sword from the stone. Hoo-ray. (waving tiny flag). And if that's what you like, that's fine. My problem is, I like reading fantasy...but I hate prophecies in fantasy...and I often find myself tossing a fantasy novel across the room because it just *had* to have a prophecy.

Which brings me back to the latest "Harry Potter" movie. Just before the movie there were previews, one for "The Golden Compass" (from a popular book) which looks to be a beautiful movie. But sure enough, there in the trailer: "Could she be the girl who's coming was prophesied?" --> cue appropriate response from actor saying this AND THEN, in "Order of the Phoenix" we find out, low and behold, that (glances both ways and whispers): there's a prophecy about Harry and V.!

*sigh* The reason this annoys me is threefold: First and foremost, it comes across as a cheap, lame-assed, lazy-writer excuse for why the bad guys are all after someone (usually a kid). It's like the writer couldn't take the time to really think up a good reason to have this king or dark lord or whatever trying to kill this child. Enter, the prophecy! The bad guy is trying to stop or influence the outcome of a prophecy, that's why he's after the kid. Which just makes me want to send the baddies a copy of Oedipus Rex. Hello? Get an education! Or get some brains--if you believe the prophecy is true, how can you also believe that there's anyway around it?

Second, problem I have with prophecies: they negates free will. There might be a choice for those able to take sides--go with the kid who will "save the land" or go with the baddie who thinks they can find a loophole in that prophecy, but the kid (and usually the baddie) is trapped. The game is rigged. Which, IMHO, negates anything they do. What I'm saying is that you have to feel, at least, that the kid can quit or fail at the job. Otherwise, their choice to go on, to do what needs to be done means nothing. It's just the "prophecy" in action.

And yes, we'll grant that there are different types of prophecies. But if the kid *can* fail, can lose the battle and leave all in darkness...why bother putting in a prophecy at all? What's the point of a prophecy that states the obvious?

Last, most fantasy novel prophecies are classic examples of "telling" rather than "showing." The prophecy *tells* us this kid is extraordinary and special: "the one." Now sometimes a good storyteller will mix things up and give us a red herring (we think it's one kid, but it's another), or will give us an awful kid ("you're the child of which the prophecy speaks???") who has to be given a make-over. All of which makes the prophecy a little less objectionable. But all too often, the story doesn't bother to put a twist to it's prophecy. It just has a kid who we know is special because the prophecy says so...not because anything they say or do makes them so.

Lazy. Lazy, lazy, lazy storytelling. IMHO, unless you're really going to play with a prophecy and use it for the purpose of surprising the audience, you shouldn't bother putting one in.

End of rant. Thank you for listening.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Ooooo-Kay. Reasonable.

I've never been a fantasy fan. The only one I can remember reading is the Lord of the Rings, which of course is in a class by itself. I've enjoyed a few of the Pern novels, but those aren't actually fantasy - there's a plausible scientific basis. I prefer the ones ones that are more sci-fi style than mythic style.

The difference between sci-fi and fantasy is that the former must be plausible. A lot of sci-fi only pretends to be, with a mere fig leaf of scientific explanation. Those involving FTL travel are problematic in this regard, but opening up the galaxy to a fiction writer's imagination is an excuseable cause to push the envelope, and many of the greatest classics involve FTL. I'm also a fan of the "modern gets zapped back into history," which is wholly implausible.

So the line is not black and white. Still, I just can't get into a genre founded on mysticism. Maybe that's a better distinction - sci-fi generally eschews mysticism.

 

[Lee Chambers]

I agree with everything you have to say concerning prophesies in stories and have nothing further to add. They make stories predictable and boring.

 

[rgraham666]

My opinion on the matter of prophets was best summed up by Heinlein.

A fake fortune teller can be tolerated. But an authentic soothsayer should be shot on sight. Cassandra did not get half the kicking around she deserved.

 

[cloudy]

Although I can certainly see your point, I think that prophecy can play an acceptable role in telling a story.

I have one now that I'm working on that builds on the old Hopi prophecy. Like a lot of prophecies, it's open to several interpretations, and unlike most, there's no part of it that says "this will happen absolutely, no matter what." Instead, it says "if this, then that," which, to me, isn't any different than any other storytelling device.

 

[Stella_Omega]

"The Golden Compass" is the first book in a trilogy called "His Dark Materials" by Philip Pullman. I think it has the right kind of prophecy; it just says that someone will change the world-- but in no way does it say how, for good or bad, or to which faction's advantage-- and in fact, it can go any direction, and at first there are several candidates for the Chosen One.
Excellent, excellent books-- quite mystical in a Jehova-related way-- but not what you'd expect-- RWJames might appreciate them.

One plot aspect of Prophecy books that you touched on is the character evolution gimmick-- that the kid has to grow big enough in soul to encompass the Fabulous Destiny. A number of those books use that growth process as the main plot. One book that I know of that parodies it a bit is called "Little, Big" by John Crowley. In it, the girl was discovered to have a Destiny, by a seeress, back when she was a "just a skinny kid in pigtails, eating a chicken drumstick." But it never makes any difference i her life-- she's impoverished and struggling, no different from any other un-Chosen girl. This Destiny never materialises; it's always somewhere in the Ultima Thule.

And when it does happen it has nothing but nothing to do with any special qualities she has, nobody needs to help her out-- it's something utterly other.

 

[galaxygoddess]

the game I play, World of Warcraft, I always start giggling hysterically because EVERYONE is "the one prophisized about" no matter how many characters you do that EXACT same quest for, "you are the chosen one" and it's a play on that.

Is EVERYONE the chosen one for something? if you weren't "the chosen one" does that mean you're trash?? Can't we all have a chance of suceeding? Prophecy or not?

Yeesh *eyeroll

 

[3113]

So the line is not black and white. Still, I just can't get into a genre founded on mysticism. Maybe that's a better distinction - sci-fi generally eschews mysticism.

Interesting point. Dune, certainly one of the most seminal sci-fi novels of the mid-late-20th century, had an interesting take on prophecy and seeing the future: it was an ability to use the fluctuations in space time to see future probabilities. These likely futures, some with multiple possible results some without, were rather like predicting rain by looking at current weather patterns.

This is not so far fetched--though the manner that it was done in the book, using drugs and going on something akin to an LSD trip, might be a little woo-woo. We look at the political situation in a country, or the way the economy is going, and make often valid predictions. Some of these predictions, as in Dune, are they're "inevitable." Like snow that's been piling up for years and is destined to fall in an avalanche. We might not know when it will happen, but the history of the situation, the way it was managed, has made the outcome unavoidable--barring some strange miracle.

I actually had little objection to the prophetic elements in Dune because they made so much sense (and were not, as you say, mystical). The book postulated that there *were* critical junctures where the outcome was uncertain and could go in any direction, but that the paths between those junctures were unstoppable, like a rushing river. Their momentum had been built up over years, and the points at which they might have been changed (when the river was still small and slow enough to dam or divert) were long past.

 

[angelicminx]

I went and saw the movie last night. Ugh!

Regarding 'the prophecy', the movie fails to mention (or at least I missed it if it did) that there were two children that the prophecy could be referring to, and it was only by Voldemort's choice that Harry was marked.

I was looking forward to seeing Hermione, Ron and the others who hadn't yet seen death riding the 'invisible' Thestrals and then seeing their reaction after leaving the Ministry of Magic, when the Thestrals would become visible. IMO, they missed a great cinematic opportunity.



3113, your opinion about prophecies makes me question the use of one in my sci-fi novel. I wonder how many people feel the same way? Hmm.

 

[slyc_willie]

I used a prophecy in one of my first published sci-fi stories. No one commented on it, but looking back now, I'm conscious of the fact that I did use the prophecy device just because it tied everything together and "forced" the bad guys to chase the good guys. It was pretty convenient, I have to admit.

"Why are they chasing us?"

"Because they want to stop the prophecy!"

However, I do enjoy self-fulfilling prophecies in sci-fi and fantasy. Such as the wizard who discovers a powerful spell that can only be cast at a certain time, under certain conditions, etc., and then puts events in motion. But there is always still the element of free will for all involved except the wizard.

 

[The_Fool]

No different than the Doom in a classic Tragedy...

 

[bluebell]

Harry Popsicles

Okay, am I the only one who read the title as "I Hate Popsicles"?
Because that, like, totally changes the way you read the thread...

 

[slyc_willie]

Okay, am I the only one who read the title as "I Hate Popsicles"?
Because that, like, totally changes the way you read the thread...

And what are you drinking tonight?

 

[bluebell]

I did not have sexual relations with that vodka bottle

And what are you drinking tonight?

A cuppa'.
You know, cuppa' this and cuppa' that.
Why, you a wanna somma me drinky drinky whooooooooooeeeeeeeeee?!

 

[slyc_willie]

A cuppa'.
You know, cuppa' this and cuppa' that.
Why, you a wanna somma me drinky drinky whooooooooooeeeeeeeeee?!

Ish gotsh plenny o'my ownnn . . . .

Oh, and if you did have sexual relations with that vodka bottle, I want piccies

 

[3113]

3113, your opinion about prophecies makes me question the use of one in my sci-fi novel. I wonder how many people feel the same way? Hmm.

I think you have to ask the question: "If I took out the prophecy, how would that change the story?"

If it would radically change the story--example, Oedipus Rex really needs that prophecy!--then keep it in. If the story would be pretty much the same, only you're going to have to come up with a "real" reason for why the bad guys are chasing this kid, or (as in Harry Potter) you're going to have to come up with another clue about that second kid--if, in other words, it's just going to make you rewrite a couple of things....then take it out.

Is it really necessary? Or, alternately, is the scene where they get the prophecy that cool and neat and special? A real show-stopper?

I mean, let's face it, a fantasy character entering a cave or a hut or a temple, where some priest or gypsy or shaman will tell them, "You are the one! Dark times are ahead, and you must face many trials, but only you can bring back the (insert magic item here) which will restore the land to glory!" Do we really need that scene? It's not even special or cool.

I kind of view it like the "it's personal" reason. For some reason, the hero can't go off to hunt down the bad guys until "it's personal!"--that is, until they murder his family. According to this logic, every police officer hunting down criminals joined the force because someone in his/her family was murdered. Because no one does anything just because it's right and good and heroic. Oh, no, they need a "personal" motivation. Just like they need a prophecy

 

[bluebell]

Ish gotsh plenny o'my ownnn . . . .

Oh, and if you did have sexual relations with that vodka bottle, I want piccies

Mkay, but I got some *hiccup* if you want it.

I know that bottle well. It was a very promising, innocent little bottle.
I shall not comment on its current state of innocence.

 

[starrkers]

Having just finished the last HP book, and not having seen the latest movie yet, my only comment is: without the prophecy, there would be no story.
The whole saga is about how certain characters' reactions to hearing one particular prophecy affect its accuracy. If no one had reacted to it, would it have had any value?

 

[rgraham666]

I once read a book where there was a prophecy about one of the main characters. And it wasn't good.

He got around it by wiping his own memory and implanting a a new personality.

 

[3113]

Having just finished the last HP book, and not having seen the latest movie yet, my only comment is: without the prophecy, there would be no story.

*sigh* I haven't read the latest HP book so I can't argue with you on this. But I've found in most cases, to not only my annoyance but profound disappointment, I usually find that prophecies to manipulate characters and readers indicate a profound LACK of writerly imagination.

Maybe, in this case, I'm wrong and like Oedipus Rex the prophecy is the gear on which the whole story turns, elegantly, beautifully, cleverly, and with a satisfying conclusion...but having read Rowling, I'd be very, very surprised if that were the case.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Having just finished the last HP book, and not having seen the latest movie yet, my only comment is: without the prophecy, there would be no story.
The whole saga is about how certain characters' reactions to hearing one particular prophecy affect its accuracy. If no one had reacted to it, would it have had any value?

Rowling is proof of the pudding; not a very good writer. *Shrug*

 

[slyc_willie]

Rowling is proof of the pudding; not a very good writer. *Shrug*

And she just proves that you only need a good gimmick and forumlae to be successful. The days of Hemmingway and Chandler are gone, alas.

 

[3113]

And she just proves that you only need a good gimmick and forumlae to be successful. The days of Hemmingway and Chandler are gone, alas.

Well, now, to be fair, wildly popular books haven't always been written by the greatest authors. Dickens was one of those wildly popular authors who was also an extraordinary writer, so popular that American readers stood on the docks waiting for the latest installment of "Old Curiosity Shop" and he was constantly fighting for royalites as folk stole his stuff and made stage plays out of it (like Xmas Carol).

But prior to him, one of the very first "best selling" authors was Mrs. Radcliffe She wrote what would not be called gothic-horror novels about innocent girls who end up trapped in old castles with evil Italian uncles.

Her books were so popular that Jane Austen wrote a book that makes fun of Radcliffe's over-the-top stories and the readers who adored them (Northhanger Abbey). It's very lucky that our most popular current author (Rowling) is not nearly so bad a writer as Radcliffe was. For example, in her most famous book (Castle of Udolpho), the heroine faints ten times (that's 10 times!) in the first 100 pages. And after she leaves for Italy, her boyfriend sits in the garden to pine for her and gets shot by the gardener!

We're talking really silly stuff. My point being...when the Zeitgeist hits, it hits, and you never know what will be wildly popular or why. In Shakespeare's day, his two most popular play were....

Hamlet--understandable, yes? and....
Pericles, Prince of Tyre--WTF? It's not a bad play but it's hardly even close to the top ten there....

You just never know. The best selling book could be This Side of Paradise or a Grapes of Wrath, very literary, or it could be Gone With the Wind (well written by it *is* a Plantation Romance!) or Love Story (Remember, "love means never having to say you're sorry").

 

[slyc_willie]

Well, now, to be fair, wildly popular books haven't always been written by the greatest authors. Dickens was one of those wildly popular authors who was also an extraordinary writer, so popular that American readers stood on the docks waiting for the latest installment of "Old Curiosity Shop" and he was constantly fighting for royalites as folk stole his stuff and made stage plays out of it (like Xmas Carol).

But prior to him, one of the very first "best selling" authors was Mrs. Radcliffe She wrote what would not be called gothic-horror novels about innocent girls who end up trapped in old castles with evil Italian uncles.

Her books were so popular that Jane Austen wrote a book that makes fun of Radcliffe's over-the-top stories and the readers who adored them (Northhanger Abbey). It's very lucky that our most popular current author (Rowling) is not nearly so bad a writer as Radcliffe was. For example, in her most famous book (Castle of Udolpho), the heroine faints ten times (that's 10 times!) in the first 100 pages. And after she leaves for Italy, her boyfriend sits in the garden to pine for her and gets shot by the gardener!

We're talking really silly stuff. My point being...when the Zeitgeist hits, it hits, and you never know what will be wildly popular or why. In Shakespeare's day, his two most popular play were....

Hamlet--understandable, yes? and....
Pericles, Prince of Tyre--WTF? It's not a bad play but it's hardly even close to the top ten there....

You just never know. The best selling book could be This Side of Paradise or a Grapes of Wrath, very literary, or it could be Go With the Wind (well written by it *is* a Plantation Romance!) or Love Story (Remember, "love means never having to say you're sorry").

An ex-girlfriend of mine absolutely loved Patricia Cornwell. Others I have dated adored Anne Rice. I can't stand either as writers. Granted, my work on this site is by no means worthy of instant publication, but I can recognize really good prose, extraordinary imagery, and the ability to place the reader 'in the moment.'

Just like Hollywood, the mainstream fiction market works on a formula of 'what works vs. what doesn't . . . for now.'

 

[Stella_Omega]

My daughter tells me that files purporting to be the new book have been downloadable for weeks now.

And she says that two people she knows of downloaded the file and read it and decided that it was a hoax-- that what they had was inferior fan fiction. They then got their genuine copies on the 15th, and found them to be the same book as the one they'd downloaded-- which still read like inferior fanfic...