I had a story rejected after four months

[holliday1960]

We raised three daughters and between them and their friends and the organizations they were active in I ended up spending a lot of time around adolescent girls. I eventually learned that post-pubescent girls watch how the men/boys around them respond, then they adjust their "look" and their manner to increase or decrease the reaction they get and to adjust who is paying attention.

Once I actually had that idea formulated I confronted my youngest daughter with it and she said it was totally true.

The first time that got hammered home I was sitting in the lobby of a ballet studio and waiting for my daughter to change. A 16 year-old dancer walked by me wearing jeans over a leotard and tights. She stepped just inside the door of the studio and bent down with her back to me to pull her jeans down. My eyes followed her, but I was thinking about nothing in particular. She looked back at me with her jeans around her knees and gave me a great big smile when she found me looking at her butt.

This wasn't the reaction of some loose little chick. She was the featured dancer at the studio. She graduated from high school with a scholarship that gave her a full ride at any college of her choosing, plus a laptop and money for books and fees. She could have gone anywhere and done anything, but she chose to stay at the local U because her mother was diagnosed with MS and needed help with her two younger brothers, who were both very athletic geniuses. She's an architect now.

That behavior doesn't stop as people get older. I think most (not all) women seek that kind of knee-jerk, almost unconscious feedback from men. That's totally not the same thing as being groped or accosted on the street.

I absolutely agree with this. I was doing the same thing as early as 13. I didn't even know the basic mechanics of sex, but I liked the attention all the same. I understand the difference between objectification and sexualization that you pointed out.

However, let me say this (again in defense of men and boys everywhere). When I was in my twenties, I had all the usual maladies associated with PMS. I learned by experience that sex relieved most of the unpleasant symptoms (with or without orgasm, although the latter is certainly preferable.). I have, on many occasions, requested of men the use of their penis. (When a woman says, "I need a man with no strings attached," that pretty much says it all.)

I made it clear that I didn't want to date them, and even in some instances ever see them again. None of them ever declined to oblige me and not one of them ever said afterwards, "I feel so used. You make me feel like a sexual object." Pfffffftt!

If they didn't want to be used for sexual purposes, they could have said no. The same holds true for women. Just say no and move on. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. It's completely voluntary.

On the other hand, if you cut a hole in a cantaloupe which is also a living, breathing being, and you use it for sexual purposes for which it was not intended, THEN you have sexually objectified that poor albeit tasty cantaloupe. The human body was designed for having sex. It's why we fit together so nicely, so if it is used for that purpose or admired for the same reason, it isn't being objectified.

 

[NotWise]

However, let me say this (again in defense of men and boys everywhere). When I was in my twenties, I had all the usual maladies associated with PMS. I learned by experience that sex relieved most of the unpleasant symptoms (with or without orgasm, although the latter is certainly preferable.). I have, on many occasions, requested of men the use of their penis. (When a woman says, "I need a man with no strings attached," that pretty much says it all.)

I made it clear that I didn't want to date them, and even in some instances ever see them again. None of them ever declined to oblige me and not one of them ever said afterwards, "I feel so used. You make me feel like a sexual object." Pfffffftt!

Damn. That explains some things I've wondered about for a while. And yeah, in one instance I did drive off with the "I feel so used..." reaction.

I understand that some women find dildos to work pretty well for that. There might be a stigma attached to using a dildo, even though they seem to be an ancient cultural tool, like flaked stone blades, levers and wheels.

 

[holliday1960]

Damn. That explains some things I've wondered about for a while. And yeah, in one instance I did drive off with the "I feel so used..." reaction.

I understand that some women find dildos to work pretty well for that. There might be a stigma attached to using a dildo, even though they seem to be an ancient cultural tool, like flaked stone blades, levers and wheels.

No, I tried the synthetic penis and it is definitely not the same. I much prefer the 'Real McCoy'. I'm sincerely sorry if anyone made you feel used in any way. To avoid any misconceptions, I always stated the purpose clearly up front. To do otherwise would have invited those hurt feelings.

Men sometimes are just as straight forward as well, but rarely so, simply because they know if they make it clear they are looking for sex only, their odds of success go down significantly. I don't think some women understood the irony of the old advertising jingle: 'Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.'

 

[NotWise]

No, I tried the synthetic penis and it is definitely not the same. I much prefer the 'Real McCoy'.

I try to write into my stories the scent of a partner, the way their bodies flex under your touch, the way they taste when you bite their skin. To me those are important. Are those the difference?

Yeah. This is way off the original topic.

 

[plesmore]

We raised three daughters and between them and their friends and the organizations they were active in I ended up spending a lot of time around adolescent girls. I eventually learned that post-pubescent girls watch how the men/boys around them respond, then they adjust their "look" and their manner to increase or decrease the reaction they get and to adjust who is paying attention.

Once I actually had that idea formulated I confronted my youngest daughter with it and she said it was totally true.

The first time that got hammered home I was sitting in the lobby of a ballet studio and waiting for my daughter to change. A 16 year-old dancer walked by me wearing jeans over a leotard and tights. She stepped just inside the door of the studio and bent down with her back to me to pull her jeans down. My eyes followed her, but I was thinking about nothing in particular. She looked back at me with her jeans around her knees and gave me a great big smile when she found me looking at her butt.

This wasn't the reaction of some loose little chick. She was the featured dancer at the studio. She graduated from high school with a scholarship that gave her a full ride at any college of her choosing, plus a laptop and money for books and fees. She could have gone anywhere and done anything, but she chose to stay at the local U because her mother was diagnosed with MS and needed help with her two younger brothers, who were both very athletic geniuses. She's an architect now.

That behavior doesn't stop as people get older. I think most (not all) women seek that kind of knee-jerk, almost unconscious feedback from men. That's totally not the same thing as being groped or accosted on the street.

When you start wearing tights and form fitting costumes at 5 years old, you become very comfortable in clothes that are much more revealing than normal - it is possible that your dancer here may have been a flirt, but she may not have thought much about giving you a smile since she knew you. After all, when we do a good tilt or fan kick we do not think someone is saying "hey, love that crotch." we prefer to think they are saying "great execution of that movement."

 

[holliday1960]

When you start wearing tights and form fitting costumes at 5 years old, you become very comfortable in clothes that are much more revealing than normal - it is possible that your dancer here may have been a flirt, but she may not have thought much about giving you a smile since she knew you. After all, when we do a good tilt or fan kick we do not think someone is saying "hey, love that crotch." we prefer to think they are saying "great execution of that movement."

plesmore, I don't think I understand your point. The young lady was not executing any movement other than removing her jeans. And, she saw him looking at her ass. Should he have said, "Hey, you're doing a great job of taking your jeans off"?

 

[plesmore]

plesmore, I don't think I understand your point. The young lady was not executing any movement other than removing her jeans. And, she saw him looking at her ass. Should he have said, "Hey, you're doing a great job of taking your jeans off"?

No - the point is that tights become normal clothing - you just don't think much about it. And if she was running late for class she would have taken her jeans off before entering the room. Just saying that the reaction of seeing her butt was more likely in Notwise's head, rather than her desire to be seen.

 

[NotWise]

When you start wearing tights and form fitting costumes at 5 years old, you become very comfortable in clothes that are much more revealing than normal - it is possible that your dancer here may have been a flirt, but she may not have thought much about giving you a smile since she knew you. After all, when we do a good tilt or fan kick we do not think someone is saying "hey, love that crotch." we prefer to think they are saying "great execution of that movement."

Eeck! and Ick!

The dancer was not a flirt. She was a powerful young woman who enjoyed the feedback.

 

[plesmore]

Eeck! and Ick!

The dancer was not a flirt. She was a powerful young woman who enjoyed the feedback.

I'm sorry - I thought you were saying that the dancer knew she was tantalizing you by showing her butt.

 

[holliday1960]

No - the point is that tights become normal clothing - you just don't think much about it. And if she was running late for class she would have taken her jeans off before entering the room. Just saying that the reaction of seeing her butt was more likely in Notwise's head, rather than her desire to be seen.

I agree that it is a possibility that due to her conditioning as a dancer, she might have not taken it seriously. But, consider this: A three year old child would probably think nothing of kicking their heels up in a way that displayed their undergarments to their dad's best friend. (After all, a 3 year old has limited sexual awareness.)

However, by age 16, any generation still presently living has near complete sexual understanding and awareness. We as parents teach our girls to conduct themselves with a degree of modesty in public. (Keep your legs closed in public, don't wear see-through shirts in public, don't bend over in a short skirt, etc.)

So, that being the case, while she may have felt 'safe' to pull off her jeans in front of an adult male that she was remotely acquainted with, she still would have the idea that it might, and probably would, elicit exactly the reaction she got. Which was a harmless look of admiration for a beautiful body.

In teaching our children modesty, we inadvertently teach them to be aware of the sexual responses of others to the exposed human form. Therefore, it could naturally be concluded that her conduct was not completely innocent. This is a case of post-pubescent behavior, not the unknowing innocence of a child.


.

 

[NotWise]

I'm sorry - I thought you were saying that the dancer knew she was tantalizing you by showing her butt.

She absolutely knew what she was doing, but she didn't want sex with me, she just wanted some feedback. I was a safe source for feedback.

 

[plesmore]

I agree that it is a possibility that due to her conditioning as a dancer, she might have not taken it seriously. But, consider this: A three year old child would probably think nothing of kicking their heels up in a way that displayed their undergarments to their dad's best friend. (After all, a 3 year old has limited sexual awareness.)

However, by age 16, any generation still presently living has near complete sexual understanding and awareness. We as parents teach our girls to conduct themselves with a degree of modesty in public. (Keep your legs closed in public, don't wear see-through shirts in public, don't bend over in a short skirt, etc.)

So, that being the case, while she may have felt 'safe' to pull off her jeans in front of an adult male that she was remotely acquainted with, she still would have the idea that it might, and probably would, elicit exactly the reaction she got. Which was a harmless look of admiration for a beautiful body.

In teaching our children modesty, we inadvertently teach them to be aware of the sexual responses of others to the exposed human form. Therefore, it could naturally be concluded that her conduct was not completely innocent. This is a case of post-pubescent behavior, not the unknowing innocence of a child.


.

The first time we did a kick line in competition, the man sitting behind my mom said, "They should put their names on those shorts."
Yes, there is an age that you know that the moves can be interpreted as provocative, but they really are not intended that way. But, your point is well taken, that there is an awareness of how some moves and outfits can be perceived. However, parents of dancers become desensitized after a while - so there is no imput.

 

[holliday1960]

I try to write into my stories the scent of a partner, the way their bodies flex under your touch, the way they taste when you bite their skin. To me those are important. Are those the difference?

Yeah. This is way off the original topic.

Yes. Those are the significant differences. Consider it and compare it to breast implants and you'll understand. Some implants are close to looking or being a possible substitute for the real thing, but you can tell the difference, if in no other way, by touch and texture.

As for being off topic...not really. The discussion was about a story where a girl felt objectified by her brother's admiration of her breasts. Granted the age in the story factor's into the rules on Lit, but in real life, there is an argument to be made about whether it is abusive or demeaning behavior for a man/boy to look at a naked female with sexual interest. Some argued the boy was being abusive by 'checking her out'.

 

[plesmore]

She absolutely knew what she was doing, but she didn't want sex with me, she just wanted some feedback. I was a safe source for feedback.

Right -ask any teenage girl how old old is..

 

[sr71plt]

Some argued the boy was being abusive by 'checking her out'.

The flip side is that he's being normal and responding to how the laws of procreation in the human realm were set up to work. But I think you've already made that point.

But no matter how often we hash this topic out on the forum, it remains that the laws and the laws of nature aren't exactly the same as the selection criteria on Literotica.

 

[NotWise]

You know, in the rather bizarre context of this forum I should never have mentioned this. We aren't really into actual human relationships here, are we?

She was someone for whom i had and have a lot of respect. She could flirt with me if she wanted and it was just flattery for me.

 

[plesmore]

You know, in the rather bizarre context of this forum I should never have mentioned this. We aren't really into actual human relationships here, are we?

She was someone for whom i had and have a lot of respect. She could flirt with me if she wanted and it was just flattery for me.

True to your av - it looks like your foot is in it

 

[holliday1960]

The first time we did a kick line in competition, the man sitting behind my mom said, "They should put their names on those shorts."
Yes, there is an age that you know that the moves can be interpreted as provocative, but they really are not intended that way. But, your point is well taken, that there is an awareness of how some moves and outfits can be perceived. However, parents of dancers become desensitized after a while - so there is no imput.

I agree that it is most unfortunate some predators take advantage of the fact performers in general and as a whole think nothing of disrobing in front of others. Honestly, that's how it should be in a perfect world.

Unfortunately, when we are not aware of who is looking and how they react, we could potentially place ourselves in danger of receiving unwelcome attention. It may be unwelcome attention, but is it completely unprovoked? In some cases it takes very little to provoke the imagination of another.

 

[NotWise]

True to your av - it looks like your foot is in it

Probably it is, but the fact remains that women (even and maybe especially young women) want to be 'checked out.' It's a human reality, regardless of whether or not I have my boot in my mouth.

 

[holliday1960]

The flip side is that he's being normal and responding to how the laws of procreation in the human realm were set up to work. But I think you've already made that point.

But no matter how often we hash this topic out on the foreign, it remains that the laws and the laws of nature aren't exactly the same as the selection criteria on Literotica.

I agree with this. I would expect this to be a 'normal' or natural reaction. Someone suggested the boy might be ousted from the house if his sister felt uncomfortable with his interest in her body. For me, age is not a factor. Change the ages to 19 and 21 and still I would ask why the sister's feelings would take precedence over the brother's. It's a matter of where one's personal rights end and another's begin.

 

[sr71plt]

I agree with this. I would expect this to be a 'normal' or natural reaction. Someone suggested the boy might be ousted from the house if his sister felt uncomfortable with his interest in her body. For me, age is not a factor. Change the ages to 19 and 21 and still I would ask why the sister's feelings would take precedence over the brother's. It's a matter of where one's personal rights end and another's begin.

I wonder how upset some would be to know that I'd not only look at any part of a woman's anatomy that she chose to emphasize with clothing or stance but I'd also look at men the same way.

 

[plesmore]

Probably it is, but the fact remains that women (even and maybe especially young women) want to be 'checked out.' It's a human reality, regardless of whether or not I have my boot in my mouth.

We all come to an age when we would like to be checked out

 

[sr71plt]

We all come to an age when we would like to be checked out

Which is along about 12. And which pretty much destroys a "want to have cake and eat it to" argument or two on this thread.

 

[holliday1960]

I wonder how upset some would be to know that I'd not only look at any part of a woman's anatomy that she chose to emphasize with clothing or stance but I'd also look at men the same way.

Exactly. It isn't about age, or sex really. I mean in the OP it was pointed out that the male didn't grope or even attempt to grope his sister in any way. He simply was curious about his sister. What if we were talking brother to brother? Shouldn't the same rules apply? People are naturally curious. They are going to look, and they might even try to touch.

I grew up with all sisters and you can rest assured the 'I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours' game was played more than once. It wasn't for sexual gratification. It was curiosity. Just like boys, we seized every opportunity to look at nude photos of either sex.

The argument that men should have more control over their sexual responses is ridiculous. Should we then say that women who climax during the act of a rape should have controlled themselves? (After all, we are equals in every way you know.)

As you pointed out way back in the thread, you cannot have your cake and eat it too? That alone argues against the basic principles of women's lib. To assume a man could control his physical response and to hold a woman to any lesser degree of responsibility is ludicrous.

Have you ever actually seen the way women act at a male strip club??? They are ANIMALS I tell yah!

 

[sr71plt]

Have you ever actually seen the way women act at a male strip club??? They are ANIMALS I tell yah!

Well . . . actually . . . I've seen both male-for-female and male-for-male strip clubs. The women patrons throw themselves around and squeal. The male patrons withdraw into themselves and focus their eyes and their hands. Since you asked. *smile*