I find it difficult to understand how Israel...
- Thread starter p_p_man
- Start date
G
Guest
Guest
Last edited by a moderator:
p_p_man
The 'Euro' European
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2001
- Posts
- 24,253
foxinsox said:Personally, I blame the Brits. I mean, wasn't it obvious that whacking a Jewish nation in the heart of the Middle East was never going to work?
They turned down Uganda just after the First World War...
Well to be precise America was persuaded by them that Uganda wasn't suitable and so withdrew its support for the idea...
G
Guest
Guest
Last edited by a moderator:
JazzManJim
On the Downbeat
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2001
- Posts
- 27,360
It's not that hard, if you've been paying attention.
See, the nation of Israel, within hours of it's being granted nation status by the UN, was attacked by all five of its neighbors.
Then they were invaded again.
Then they were invaded again.
Then they were invaded again.
Then they were invaded again.
In between these invasions, they've been subjected to suicide bombers, assasination attempts, and surrounded by hostility the likes of which you and I, safe in our relatively-secure nations, can not even begin to imagine.
So Israel decided to keep the territory they won during those five invasions by armies much larger than their own. The UN told Israel to give them back. Israel said that such a thing wasn't bloody likely unless the UN could guarantee that the invasions wouldn't happen again and that the territories were not only a buffer zone, but a place for new arrivals to settle and live. The UN asked around and found out that there was no way in hell that the hostility would stop. So Israel gave some of it back, but kept some that was of really important strategic value (like the Golan Heights), or where people had already started to live (The Gaza Strip and West Bank). After all, it was a time-honored tradition of allowing a victor nation to retain control of some of the territory it had taken in the war. Didn't the Allies do the same for the Soviet Union? But the bombings continued. And the rhetoric saying that there would be no rest until Israel was destroyed. So, Israel figured that it had best keep what it had already.
Then there was a lot of peace talks. Israel actually agreed to cede much of the territory back to whomever had it in the first place, on the condition that the Palestinians stop killing Israelis. Yasser Arafat said "Hey. No Problem. We can handle this", then went back and told the Palestinians to kill some more Israelis. So the Israelis, figuring that Arafat wasn't quite the negotiator interested in peace he purported to be, left the table.
And now, here we are.
It's a bit simplistic, and leaves out some of the nuances of the conflict since 1948, but that's about it. I'm not going to say that Israel has been innocent, either, but, to my thinking, they've been fighting merely to exist for a hell of a long time. Maybe, just maybe, they deserve a little peace.
See, the nation of Israel, within hours of it's being granted nation status by the UN, was attacked by all five of its neighbors.
Then they were invaded again.
Then they were invaded again.
Then they were invaded again.
Then they were invaded again.
In between these invasions, they've been subjected to suicide bombers, assasination attempts, and surrounded by hostility the likes of which you and I, safe in our relatively-secure nations, can not even begin to imagine.
So Israel decided to keep the territory they won during those five invasions by armies much larger than their own. The UN told Israel to give them back. Israel said that such a thing wasn't bloody likely unless the UN could guarantee that the invasions wouldn't happen again and that the territories were not only a buffer zone, but a place for new arrivals to settle and live. The UN asked around and found out that there was no way in hell that the hostility would stop. So Israel gave some of it back, but kept some that was of really important strategic value (like the Golan Heights), or where people had already started to live (The Gaza Strip and West Bank). After all, it was a time-honored tradition of allowing a victor nation to retain control of some of the territory it had taken in the war. Didn't the Allies do the same for the Soviet Union? But the bombings continued. And the rhetoric saying that there would be no rest until Israel was destroyed. So, Israel figured that it had best keep what it had already.
Then there was a lot of peace talks. Israel actually agreed to cede much of the territory back to whomever had it in the first place, on the condition that the Palestinians stop killing Israelis. Yasser Arafat said "Hey. No Problem. We can handle this", then went back and told the Palestinians to kill some more Israelis. So the Israelis, figuring that Arafat wasn't quite the negotiator interested in peace he purported to be, left the table.
And now, here we are.
It's a bit simplistic, and leaves out some of the nuances of the conflict since 1948, but that's about it. I'm not going to say that Israel has been innocent, either, but, to my thinking, they've been fighting merely to exist for a hell of a long time. Maybe, just maybe, they deserve a little peace.
p_p_man
The 'Euro' European
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2001
- Posts
- 24,253
I'm not questioning how they reached this position JazzManJim...
And as you say we'll leave out the nuances like the support America has relentlessly and blindly given Israel since it was first formed.
And the creeping virus of the settlers...
And the killing of schoolkids who throw stones...
And the cold blooded murder of a 12 year old witnessed by the world on TV...
I just find it strange that they are now thinking about declaring war. I suppose it's really taking a lead from my friend Bush and his statement about a war on "terrorists". That excuse is going to be used again again by any tin pot war mongering megalomaniac who wants to crush any opposition.
And as you say we'll leave out the nuances like the support America has relentlessly and blindly given Israel since it was first formed.
And the creeping virus of the settlers...
And the killing of schoolkids who throw stones...
And the cold blooded murder of a 12 year old witnessed by the world on TV...
I just find it strange that they are now thinking about declaring war. I suppose it's really taking a lead from my friend Bush and his statement about a war on "terrorists". That excuse is going to be used again again by any tin pot war mongering megalomaniac who wants to crush any opposition.
pabloback
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2001
- Posts
- 8,255
Re: I think it's the Palestians who need Max...
i think the images of palestinian villages being blown up by tanks and rockets is stronger than watching old rabbis spraying graffitti on mosques
palestine 1 israel 0
hey we disagree again cool#p_p_man said:The Israelis seem to be streets ahead in the spin war...
i think the images of palestinian villages being blown up by tanks and rockets is stronger than watching old rabbis spraying graffitti on mosques
palestine 1 israel 0
p_p_man
The 'Euro' European
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2001
- Posts
- 24,253
Yeah the images are there...
For half a day at the most then it's back to those crouching cretins in Israel telling the world how they are at war with terrorists and how (and this is the one I like - even Bush repeated it yesterday) they are acting in self-defence!
This from a country which has an army an airforce and a navy. Top of the range up-to-date technology ( courtesy of we know who) which occupies parts of Palestine and which is still building settlements further and further into Palestian areas.
Whose day-to-day agenda seems to be to kill as many stone throwing schoolkids as it can manage and who can go into Palestinian towns at will with tanks and shell whatever buildings they want.
No pabloback it's the Palestinians who need a spinmaster to keep those type of things in the public conscious (and conscience).
For half a day at the most then it's back to those crouching cretins in Israel telling the world how they are at war with terrorists and how (and this is the one I like - even Bush repeated it yesterday) they are acting in self-defence!
This from a country which has an army an airforce and a navy. Top of the range up-to-date technology ( courtesy of we know who) which occupies parts of Palestine and which is still building settlements further and further into Palestian areas.
Whose day-to-day agenda seems to be to kill as many stone throwing schoolkids as it can manage and who can go into Palestinian towns at will with tanks and shell whatever buildings they want.
No pabloback it's the Palestinians who need a spinmaster to keep those type of things in the public conscious (and conscience).
The_old_man
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2001
- Posts
- 916
What I can't understand is why no one can seem to remember---THE JEWS WERE THERE FIRST!
JazzManJim
On the Downbeat
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2001
- Posts
- 27,360
Re: I'm not questioning how they reached this position JazzManJim...
First, the US has supported Israel, not blindly, but fully knowing that it is the only democratic country in the area. That's been very important to this country for a long time. We do the same for lots of other countries. It's only because it's the Middle East that it gets so much attention.
Second, the settlers are on land that Israel claims belongs to them, taken in wars they didn't start, but efficiently and conclusively ended, fought against nations much larger than they, whose sole motives were to kill each and every one of them.
Third...you warn people and warn people and warn people not to be in a place and not to throw stones. You warn them what will happen if they do. And the world is supposed to be surprised when ou do just what you say you will do? Come on..get real. These schoolkids weren't there all by themselves - they never have been. They'v ealways been a part of a stone and Molotov-cocktail and gun-toting mob which routinely threatens Israeli soldiers and police officers. Blame the adults who put these kids in harm's way, for God's sake.
Ditto for Number 4.
The fact is that, when it comes to "who's been attacking whom", the Israelis have been the ones under nearly constant attack since they've existed. They've been the ones fighting for their lives and their piddling scrap of land graciously granted them by the UN in a place where there's plenty of land to go around .
I cry no tears for the Palestinians.
p_p_man said:And as you say we'll leave out the nuances like the support America has relentlessly and blindly given Israel since it was first formed.
And the creeping virus of the settlers...
And the killing of schoolkids who throw stones...
And the cold blooded murder of a 12 year old witnessed by the world on TV...
I just find it strange that they are now thinking about declaring war. I suppose it's really taking a lead from my friend Bush and his statement about a war on "terrorists". That excuse is going to be used again again by any tin pot war mongering megalomaniac who wants to crush any opposition.
First, the US has supported Israel, not blindly, but fully knowing that it is the only democratic country in the area. That's been very important to this country for a long time. We do the same for lots of other countries. It's only because it's the Middle East that it gets so much attention.
Second, the settlers are on land that Israel claims belongs to them, taken in wars they didn't start, but efficiently and conclusively ended, fought against nations much larger than they, whose sole motives were to kill each and every one of them.
Third...you warn people and warn people and warn people not to be in a place and not to throw stones. You warn them what will happen if they do. And the world is supposed to be surprised when ou do just what you say you will do? Come on..get real. These schoolkids weren't there all by themselves - they never have been. They'v ealways been a part of a stone and Molotov-cocktail and gun-toting mob which routinely threatens Israeli soldiers and police officers. Blame the adults who put these kids in harm's way, for God's sake.
Ditto for Number 4.
The fact is that, when it comes to "who's been attacking whom", the Israelis have been the ones under nearly constant attack since they've existed. They've been the ones fighting for their lives and their piddling scrap of land graciously granted them by the UN in a place where there's plenty of land to go around .
I cry no tears for the Palestinians.
Problem Child
titleless
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2001
- Posts
- 27,935
JazzManJim-
I officially award you the title of "dude that gets to beat his head against the brick wall we call p_p_man".
Congratulations! Have fun!
later.
I officially award you the title of "dude that gets to beat his head against the brick wall we call p_p_man".
Congratulations! Have fun!
later.
p_p_man
The 'Euro' European
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2001
- Posts
- 24,253
To my mind Israel doesn't want to live in harmony with Palestine...
they want the whole country. Arafat has never been a good leader for the Palestians but as Israel killed off all the top contenders then Arafat is all that's left.
Isreal is the subject of breaking so many UN resolutions I've lost count.
I can't imagine how a twelve year old by being shielded by his father caught in cross fire can be callously murdered by Israeli soldiers in full view of the World's television audience and be considered an instrument of planned protest. The Israeli armys excuse? They didn't see him!
Yeah it's a mess. But Israel is no longer interested in peace. It wants to absorb Palestine into Israel.
I can't see Palestine absorbing Israel...
they want the whole country. Arafat has never been a good leader for the Palestians but as Israel killed off all the top contenders then Arafat is all that's left.
Isreal is the subject of breaking so many UN resolutions I've lost count.
I can't imagine how a twelve year old by being shielded by his father caught in cross fire can be callously murdered by Israeli soldiers in full view of the World's television audience and be considered an instrument of planned protest. The Israeli armys excuse? They didn't see him!
Yeah it's a mess. But Israel is no longer interested in peace. It wants to absorb Palestine into Israel.
I can't see Palestine absorbing Israel...
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Re: I'm not questioning how they reached this position JazzManJim...
I do. They're getting a raw deal at the hands of the Israelis.
Of course Israel has a right to defend itself and its borders. But these so-called retaliatory attacks? They go waaay beyond defence.
Israel does not know how to compromise and is not interested in learning. For example, Palestine offered to compromise with Israel over the sharing of common holy sites but Israel refused to entertain the idea.
How is fanaticism any different or any more acceptable just because it emanates from a Jewish nation as opposed to a Muslim or Arabic nation?
JazzManJim said:
I do. They're getting a raw deal at the hands of the Israelis.
Of course Israel has a right to defend itself and its borders. But these so-called retaliatory attacks? They go waaay beyond defence.
Israel does not know how to compromise and is not interested in learning. For example, Palestine offered to compromise with Israel over the sharing of common holy sites but Israel refused to entertain the idea.
How is fanaticism any different or any more acceptable just because it emanates from a Jewish nation as opposed to a Muslim or Arabic nation?
G
Guest
Guest
Woops...
Lost Cause
It's a wrap!
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2001
- Posts
- 30,949
I find it difficult to understand how england can declare war on the IRA, when england occupies most of their land.
JazzManJim
On the Downbeat
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2001
- Posts
- 27,360
Just call me Don Quixote.
Sometimes I just like tilting at windmills.
Problem Child said:
Sometimes I just like tilting at windmills.
M
miles
Guest
What happened to your balanced view?
