I don't know if I agree or not...

[Cirrus]

I just basically want a sounding board here, so if everyone could toss out some ideas that would be great.

Long story short, my Dom has a fantasy about a female friend, himself, and I. I enjoy the fantasy and it turns me on. As a caveat, all 9 planets would have to align on the second Tuesday of June during a new moon in order for it to happen, so it's pretty much a moot point anyway, but here's the deal.

I don't want to perform oral on a woman. I told him I'd probably safeword, but later after I thought about it, I did concede that if the situation were exactly right, I might do it.

Here's what I need feedback on. He said the safeword is for physical danger, too much pain, too tight bond, cramp, etc. I feel similarly, and for everyone's info, I have never used the red word...I reserve it for emergencies. I've used yellow to mean "that's good, but not quite so hard" and things like that. He always respects it.

I trust him and I love him, and I know he would do me no harm. I'm sure of this. But, since 1) going down on a woman won't kill me 2) though I probably won't enjoy it, it wouldn't do me emotional damage just the same as eating a food I don't like or going to a place I don't like wouldn't do me damage 3) if I really, REALLY didn't want to do it, he wouldn't make me, though he may make a few attempts to convince me otherwise.

So, was he right to imply that it's not really a safeword type situation? Would this be more of a pushable limit, somewhere between hard and soft?

 

[lilredwolph]

i would say this would be under limits not safeword, but if you set the limits clearly on the subject and were being pushed i would say you could safeword out

 

[~Dream~]

I just basically want a sounding board here, so if everyone could toss out some ideas that would be great.


I trust him and I love him, and I know he would do me no harm. I'm sure of this. But, since 1) going down on a woman won't kill me 2) though I probably won't enjoy it, it wouldn't do me emotional damage just the same as eating a food I don't like or going to a place I don't like wouldn't do me damage 3) if I really, REALLY didn't want to do it, he wouldn't make me, though he may make a few attempts to convince me otherwise.

So, was he right to imply that it's not really a safeword type situation? Would this be more of a pushable limit, somewhere between hard and soft?

the thing that stands out for me in this CIRRUS SWEETY IS THAT You say YOU TRUST AND LOVE HIM..Does He feel the same for You? if so then mutual respect should be there and JMHO BUT..He should respect the fact that doing that would make you very uncomfortable and not even ask for you to perform the act then..if YOU say that you probably wont enjoy it then how can He knowingly ask it of you ,just wrong ,wrong ,dead wrong in my mind.. it's good that if you really dont wanna he wont make ya but ultimately the decision is for You to make I would say that for me personally it would be a safeword thing and NOT A PUSHABLE LIMIT CAUSE pleasing a woman orally is definately NOT MY THING I prefer pleasing a man =my MASTER

 

[Vulpesvulpes]

Wow! tough question...

I am really on the fence here.

I also have a fantasy about 'forcing' a sub to go down on another woman.

It would almost have to be in the context of one of those dirty things that she likes to be 'made' to do.

If it really repulsed her, I would have to respect that.

I agree that the safeword is sacred and should only be used when necessary but I think it shows a lack of respect for the sub to put her in a position where she feels like her only way out is to use it.

How weird would it be for you to say okay but only on your terms. (ie. when, where, with whom, etc.)

That way, you could get involved in picking a woman you thought you could do this with, seducing her, etc.

Then he is getting you to do something you really don't want to do but allowing you some control for your own comfort.

Another thought...

What if it were golden showers or scat play that he wanted to do? That won't physically harm you either but it sure is a hard limit for a lot of people.

-Vv

 

[Ebonyfire]

I just basically want a sounding board here, so if everyone could toss out some ideas that would be great.

Long story short, my Dom has a fantasy about a female friend, himself, and I. I enjoy the fantasy and it turns me on. As a caveat, all 9 planets would have to align on the second Tuesday of June during a new moon in order for it to happen, so it's pretty much a moot point anyway, but here's the deal.

I don't want to perform oral on a woman. I told him I'd probably safeword, but later after I thought about it, I did concede that if the situation were exactly right, I might do it.

Here's what I need feedback on. He said the safeword is for physical danger, too much pain, too tight bond, cramp, etc. I feel similarly, and for everyone's info, I have never used the red word...I reserve it for emergencies. I've used yellow to mean "that's good, but not quite so hard" and things like that. He always respects it.

I trust him and I love him, and I know he would do me no harm. I'm sure of this. But, since 1) going down on a woman won't kill me 2) though I probably won't enjoy it, it wouldn't do me emotional damage just the same as eating a food I don't like or going to a place I don't like wouldn't do me damage 3) if I really, REALLY didn't want to do it, he wouldn't make me, though he may make a few attempts to convince me otherwise.

So, was he right to imply that it's not really a safeword type situation? Would this be more of a pushable limit, somewhere between hard and soft?

If going down on a woman is a hard limit for you, then that should end the conversation. However, it is it not, then the door has been left open and you and Master have to discuss just what the true boundaries are in this situation.

Ebony

 

[Trainerman]

My two pence worth......

I am in agreement with points made in various posts earlier.
The ongoing communication (particularly the calm 'out of scene' type) should have clearly identified hard and soft limits. In my view, the 'Dom' never pushes a hard limit...and IF convinced that pushing a soft limit would be of MUTUAL benefit then he has a huge responsibility to communicate/learn/calculate/plan and be 110% sure that he has got it exactly right when he does so.

But he could still get it wrong.....and IMHO that is precisely what safewords are for, so to me you would HAVE to be able to safeword out.

Also...I believe it is possible for emotional damage to be done IF the wrong limits are pushed at the wrong time or in the wrong way etc. What happens to the trust then? Getting to the point of feeling that you can never trust anyone COULD happen in time...and that would be emotional damage indeed.

Dave

 

[lasavane]

i have to agree with Ebony on this. However, you seem to not be sure if it is a hard limit or not. You need to decide. If it is and he tries to force it on you, then you can safeword, but he needs to know if it is. Also, if you think this is one of those things where maybe you won't know for sure until you get there, let him know that, too. We have done things that i told him upfront i wanted to try with the knowledge i could stop it, and he has been ok with this. This way you don't have to use a safeword and it is more of an experiment to see how you truely feel.

lasavane

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: My two pence worth......

I am in agreement with points made in various posts earlier.
...I believe it is possible for emotional damage to be done IF the wrong limits are pushed at the wrong time or in the wrong way etc. What happens to the trust then? Getting to the point of feeling that you can never trust anyone COULD happen in time...and that would be emotional damage indeed.

Dave

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well said. Trust is paramount in these situations. Once lost, it can be impossible to regain.

 

[Persephone36]

Re: My two pence worth......

I am in agreement with points made in various posts earlier.
The ongoing communication (particularly the calm 'out of scene' type) should have clearly identified hard and soft limits. In my view, the 'Dom' never pushes a hard limit...and IF convinced that pushing a soft limit would be of MUTUAL benefit then he has a huge responsibility to communicate/learn/calculate/plan and be 110% sure that he has got it exactly right when he does so.

But he could still get it wrong.....and IMHO that is precisely what safewords are for, so to me you would HAVE to be able to safeword out.

Also...I believe it is possible for emotional damage to be done IF the wrong limits are pushed at the wrong time or in the wrong way etc. What happens to the trust then? Getting to the point of feeling that you can never trust anyone COULD happen in time...and that would be emotional damage indeed.

Dave

Cirrus,

I think Sir-to-k brings up a point here that I would like to emphasize. There's a need for a safeword -- in my personal opinion -- for the possibility of emotional damage. Even if this isn't a hard limit for you -- and you start to explore the possibility more and more...there's still the chance that in being forced to do this it becomes a destructive act.

You have a natural repulsion to it. I can understand that -- I do too, (that's not a judgment of others, it's just my gut response to the idea) although the fantasy of a three-some with a woman occasionally appeals to me. I would say it's not a hard limit for me -- but in the moment -- you just can't know for sure. To me, isn't that the point of a safeword -- to remain safe, both physically *and* psychologically.

P.

 

[James Blandings]

Re: My two pence worth......

I am in agreement with points made in various posts earlier.
The ongoing communication (particularly the calm 'out of scene' type) should have clearly identified hard and soft limits. In my view, the 'Dom' never pushes a hard limit...and IF convinced that pushing a soft limit would be of MUTUAL benefit then he has a huge responsibility to communicate/learn/calculate/plan and be 110% sure that he has got it exactly right when he does so.

But he could still get it wrong.....and IMHO that is precisely what safewords are for, so to me you would HAVE to be able to safeword out.

Also...I believe it is possible for emotional damage to be done IF the wrong limits are pushed at the wrong time or in the wrong way etc. What happens to the trust then? Getting to the point of feeling that you can never trust anyone COULD happen in time...and that would be emotional damage indeed.

Dave

In my opinion you are absolutely right. The point of a safe word is to protect the submissive in situations where the dominanat can not tell that a problem exists. I do not believe that an emotional or psychological problem is any less important than a physical one. In fact, I will go a little further and say that the damage of a broken bond of trust is likely to be much greater than any physical harm that might result in a BDSM scene.

 

[Shadowsdream]

safe words..

were created for SAFETY..emotional or physical is just splitting hairs.

BUT....the safe word was not created as an easy out for * not in the mood* or *maybe some other time*

If this experience is a limit...it is a limit...if it is a revulsion and you go through with it...you set yourself up to fail..you set the other woman up to be hurt emotionally..and you set the Dominant up for disappointment or embarrassment.

Why do I say *you* set all of you up? Because you already are pretty sure it is not your thing.

I know it is hypothetical and so say...before it gets to reality..communicate some more..about how it turns you on to think about it and turns you off to do it...how limits change as trust and kink develope but at the MOMENT it is a safe word limit scenerio.

I must say I don't believe there is any situation that should be denied a safe word as emotions are different every day...

 

[WillowPuss]

Robuck and I discussed this point once we saw the opening post.

I had not given it much thought - as he knows what triggers any huge emotional thing for me.

However, he said that he would want me to safeword out of anything that caused me such discomfort that it was akin to bad pain - be that physical OR emotional.

 

[Cirrus]

.

BUT....the safe word was not created as an easy out for * not in the mood* or *maybe some other time*

That's exactly what I'm not sure about. It would have to happen for me to know. Yes, giving oral to a woman is repulsive to me (although I did already agree to receive it...might not be my cup of tea but it wouldn't repulse me most likely) but in the heat of the moment I might actually WANT to me "made" to do something that repulses me.

The more I've thought about it...I think it's a "medium" limit. I think about my hard limits: children, animals, humiliation, suspension (due to a physical condition), and it's not akin to those. I don't get the same feeling of NO!!!! regarding this as I do with those.

 

[cellis]

Having to deal with a similar situation, I can say that you have to be certain within yourself about what you want. That has to be first and foremost important.

If you find oral sex with a woman uncomfortable or worse, then say so before you are put in a position to perform. I would hate to be in that situation and then the sub say... I'm not going down on her... It would ruin everything.

I agree that it comes down to a limit. It would be a limit for me if I were in that situation and I felt as you do.

You do everyone in the situation a tremendous disservice if you allow a scene to start and then decide you don't want to play.

 

[MzChrista]

That's exactly what I'm not sure about. It would have to happen for me to know. Yes, giving oral to a woman is repulsive to me (although I did already agree to receive it...might not be my cup of tea but it wouldn't repulse me most likely) but in the heat of the moment I might actually WANT to me "made" to do something that repulses me.

The more I've thought about it...I think it's a "medium" limit. I think about my hard limits: children, animals, humiliation, suspension (due to a physical condition), and it's not akin to those. I don't get the same feeling of NO!!!! regarding this as I do with those.

Well look, lots of times subs think they want to do something and when the time comes cant go through with it and lots of times they say somthing else they wont do but in the heat of the moment they realize it turns them on. Thats well known to all. The only difference in your case is that its not a pain sort of thing but a sex one. If the question was you didnt know if you would really say yes or no to the cane until the actual time arrives there wouldnt be any controversy, everyone would say sure you dont really know until you look it in the eye.
So I dont see that this is different in any way really.

 

[Daddyslilpet]

Well look, lots of times subs think they want to do something and when the time comes cant go through with it and lots of times they say somthing else they wont do but in the heat of the moment they realize it turns them on. Thats well known to all. The only difference in your case is that its not a pain sort of thing but a sex one. If the question was you didnt know if you would really say yes or no to the cane until the actual time arrives there wouldnt be any controversy, everyone would say sure you dont really know until you look it in the eye.
So I dont see that this is different in any way really.

Well said. I have to agree with this. I think, communication and understanding on both parts as to what is expected or desired is the key. As a sub, I don't know what I'll find exciting until its happening, and the reverse of that is also true to an extent. I also have to agree that MY safeword is to protect ME from all hurts, be they physical or emotional.

dixi

 

[morninggirl5]

Well said. I have to agree with this. I think, communication and understanding on both parts as to what is expected or desired is the key. As a sub, I don't know what I'll find exciting until its happening, and the reverse of that is also true to an extent. I also have to agree that MY safeword is to protect ME from all hurts, be they physical or emotional.

dixi

Exactly, dixi. If something is too much for me emotionally, there has to be some way to communicate that and often, especially for me, those are the hardest things for me to talk about. A safeword gives a very clear indication that something is wrong, we need to stop and talk about this.

 

[Lancecastor]

to summarize...?

I enjoy the fantasy and it turns me on

...if the situation were exactly right, I might do it.

I trust him and I love him, and I know he would do me no harm.

So, was he right to imply that it's not really a safeword type situation?

Would this be more of a pushable limit, somewhere between hard and soft?

If the fantasy turns you on, you've thought about actually doing it, you trust your man and there is no danger....

...I think you answered your own question in the first post, Cirrus.

It's your limit, one you're thinking of adjusting, by the sounds of things.

Have fun;
Lance

 

[Pure]

Cirrus said (second posting)

>That's exactly what I'm not sure about. It would have to happen for me to know. Yes, giving oral to a woman is repulsive to me (although I did already agree to receive it...might not be my cup of tea but it wouldn't repulse me most likely) but in the heat of the moment I might actually WANT to me "made" to do something that repulses me.

>The more I've thought about it...I think it's a "medium" limit. I think about my hard limits: children, animals, humiliation, suspension (due to a physical condition), and it's not akin to those. I don't get the same feeling of NO!!!! regarding this as I do with those.

You seem to have answered your own question.

Several posters (e.g. Blandings, Artful's Dream) seem to ignore your comparison of eating a food you don't really like; namely no 'harm' is involved, nor even a 'problem'. So it would seem that the issue of your 'safety' is irrelevant, whether psychological or physical. So the use of 'safeword' would seem odd.

MzC is right, imo; you won't know till you look it in the face.

No one here has mentioned that it's pretty hard to "force" you to eat a pussy! How would that be done? Someone grabs your tongue and applies it? Puts bamboo under your fingernails, till you do it? My point: if, at the time, you do it, you in some way consent. Lots of people fantasize of 'forced', this or that: being
'forced' to dance naked on a table, before strangers, for example.

My personal conclusion: Since the result is no more harmful than, say, eating brussell's sprouts or dancing on a table, you should consider doing it. If you do do it, it won't be from force. Your reaction may be a surprise, but at worst it won't be any different from my agreeing swallow a raw oyster, doing it, and finding it's really a repulsive food item; but my psyche is just fine.

Your decisions and what you go along with and what you are 'forced' to do (in the bdsm scene sense, not the 'gun at the head' sense) will show you what your likes are.

 

[Cirrus]

You seem to have answered your own question.

Several posters (e.g. Blandings, Artful's Dream) seem to ignore your comparison of eating a food you don't really like; namely no 'harm' is involved, nor even a 'problem'. So it would seem that the issue of your 'safety' is irrelevant, whether psychological or physical. So the use of 'safeword' would seem odd.

Thanks Pure...I think you're right. Like I said, I just needed a sounding board to "talk" my thoughts out and decide how I really felt about it.

While it's something I don't think I'd enjoy, I agree with you that since there's no real danger, physical or otherwise, involved, it's not a safeword situation.

Why must my Dom always be right?

 

[zipman]

Another Point of View

I am currently going through this exact issue with my girlfriend/sub. This has been a huge fantasy of mine and I wanted to do it. I raised it by discussing a fantasy while I was fucking her. She made it clear that she "might" be willing to do it, but preferred others to not be a part of our sexual relationship. In addition, that my being with the other woman would be a huge turn-off for her.

As her Dom (as well as her boyfriend), I knew that I had introduced something to our relationship too early (yes, we Dom's do mistakes every now and again). Since then, I have waited and talked to her about it, in a variety of different ways. She now is willing to not only do it, but doesn't have an issue with me having sex with the other woman. So what changed?

We did, our relationship did, the level of trust between us changed. I told her how much the thought turned me on, what about it turned me on, how I don't want to fuck other women, that I want us to be with another woman together. That I want two women to submit to me. All these things have slowly changed her mind, or rather, have made her aware that the thought does turn her on. That and the fact that she desires to do it to please me as well.

Cirrus, it sounds as if you are getting close, but still aren't quite ready. There is nothing wrong with that. If this was a hard limit for my sub, I wouldn't even have mentioned it again to her. I think you may want to discuss it further with him. Understand why it turns your Dom on. Perhaps, in time, you may find the thought erotic, and your feelings may change.

 

[MsWorthy]

I just basically want a sounding board here, so if everyone could toss out some ideas that would be great.

Long story short, my Dom has a fantasy about a female friend, himself, and I. I enjoy the fantasy and it turns me on. As a caveat, all 9 planets would have to align on the second Tuesday of June during a new moon in order for it to happen, so it's pretty much a moot point anyway, but here's the deal.

I don't want to perform oral on a woman. I told him I'd probably safeword, but later after I thought about it, I did concede that if the situation were exactly right, I might do it.

Here's what I need feedback on. He said the safeword is for physical danger, too much pain, too tight bond, cramp, etc. I feel similarly, and for everyone's info, I have never used the red word...I reserve it for emergencies. I've used yellow to mean "that's good, but not quite so hard" and things like that. He always respects it.

I trust him and I love him, and I know he would do me no harm. I'm sure of this. But, since 1) going down on a woman won't kill me 2) though I probably won't enjoy it, it wouldn't do me emotional damage just the same as eating a food I don't like or going to a place I don't like wouldn't do me damage 3) if I really, REALLY didn't want to do it, he wouldn't make me, though he may make a few attempts to convince me otherwise.

So, was he right to imply that it's not really a safeword type situation? Would this be more of a pushable limit, somewhere between hard and soft?

Since you have made your decision regarding whether this is a safeword situation, I would like to voice my concern for the other woman. Imagine how she would feel if you safeword out of going down on her, or safeword in the middle of it. I realize that you said it probably will not happen, but I think the point should be made. I do hope she is involved in the negotiations and knows of your reticence before you pursue the fantasy, if you ever do.

~just a friendly tip from your neighborhood lesbian....we are not just fantasy fodder, we are people with feelings~

 

[Cirrus]

Oh my god, MsWorthy...I never meant to imply that lesbians were just fantasy material. My sincerest apology if you inferred that. I probably should have added that the woman He and I discuss is also straight, and married. That's why I didn't bring up the issue of lesbians, since neither of us are.

It goes without saying that the other woman would be included in the discussion, after all, she's going to have thoughts about the scene as well as limits of her own. Everyone involved should know what the others bring to the table in order for it to work at all.

Again, my apologies if you misunderstood me.

 

[MsWorthy]

Thank you, Cirrus, for your consideration regarding my post. *smiles*

I am happy to see that you have thought this through and care about your friend's feelings.