I applaud Angeline!

[twelveoone]

for this

I would take my hat off, if I had one

I think there is a limit on roses in a post

RIGHT ON
ANGELINE

 

[anonamouse]

for this

I would take my hat off, if I had one

I think there is a limit on roses in a post

RIGHT ON
ANGELINE

Raise you right hands and repeat after me
I promise not to screw it up with bullshit

 

[Angeline]

Raise you right hands and repeat after me
I promise not to screw it up with bullshit

LOL! Cut it out!

 

[anonamouse]

LOL! Cut it out!

nope, a few more

 

[sandspike]

LOL! Cut it out!

I have both hands in the air! Dammit I dropped my beer!

 

[PatCarrington]

for this

I would take my hat off, if I had one

I think there is a limit on roses in a post

RIGHT ON
ANGELINE

ANY post about poetry deserves roses.

especially one about working together for its improvement, with the rules and guidelines so well spelled-out.

 

[Angeline]

ANY post about poetry deserves roses.

especially one about working together for its improvement, with the rules and guidelines so well spelled-out.

I cheated. I used to evaluate writing samples for a living.

 

[champagne1982]

I cheated. I used to evaluate writing samples for a living.

Hey you, get back to puttin' callouses on yer fingers by learnin' that thar gitar thang...

And thanks for puttin' this board into 4wheel drive and spinning it back on track.

Signed, nascarishly, Carrie the speed freeek...

 

[Angeline]

Hey you, get back to puttin' callouses on yer fingers by learnin' that thar gitar thang...

And thanks for puttin' this board into 4wheel drive and spinning it back on track.

Signed, nascarishly, Carrie the speed freeek...

I had to stop, lol. I tried to teach myself C major and B minor and then I tried to play Everybody Knows This is Nowhere (I'm starting with a Canadian artist in honor of you and darkmaas) and it was all too much. Then I handed the guitar to ee and he played it flawlessly, the bastard. I'm getting callouses and I broke a nail. Oh, what I don't do in the name of art.

I am very happy to see you slutting your words in that thread.

 

[wildsweetone]

As others have said...



thanks dear.

 

[Jennifer C]

Keep up the good work Ange, the workshop is excellent and I look forward to taking part.

 

[Angeline]

Keep up the good work Ange, the workshop is excellent and I look forward to taking part.

Thank you sweetie. I just think we can all help each other. What I dig about that thread is that's exactly what is happening. All we need to do there is write poems and help each other.

 

[Jennifer C]

Thank you sweetie. I just think we can all help each other. What I dig about that thread is that's exactly what is happening. All we need to do there is write poems and help each other.

You're welcome hun, what I love about that thread is that it's not intimidating, it's friendly, yet helpful and honest and I feel very comftable taking part in it.

I will go and do my bit when I am a bit more awake and alert lol.

Thanks again and well done...

 

[annaswirls]

I cheated. I used to evaluate writing samples for a living.

omg I have not heard the word rubric in years.

do you have the grid worked out?

4=theme well developed 3=theme apparent but not consistant .....? 0=random appearence of unconnected ideas




those damn things are tough to write but make the evaluation a bit less painful.

omg I will have nightmares!

Those darn home-ec teachers.

So this is different from the Not for the Thin Skinned thread in the sense that it is structured with guidelines or that the thin skinned should be able to walk out without scratches?? Just curious. I like getting it rough. But that is just me and really only from those I am bowed to already. Hmm. Much to consider

J

 

[Angeline]

omg I have not heard the word rubric in years.

do you have the grid worked out?

4=theme well developed 3=theme apparent but not consistant .....? 0=random appearence of unconnected ideas




those damn things are tough to write but make the evaluation a bit less painful.

omg I will have nightmares!

Those darn home-ec teachers.

So this is different from the Not for the Thin Skinned thread in the sense that it is structured with guidelines or that the thin skinned should be able to walk out without scratches?? Just curious. I like getting it rough. But that is just me and really only from those I am bowed to already. Hmm. Much to consider

J

Hi Anna.

The rubric is in the thread--you can read it if you like. It is tied to elements by which to evaluate a poem: theme, structure, word choice, and mechanics. I tried to explain what I think works in each of those criteria. I could have tried to associate number values with each of those, but it seemed unnecessary to me. The main thing for me was just to try to explain what I think works in each of those elements--people can agree with it or not. If they can improve on it, that's good.

The difference from other "review" threads here is 1) that it does try to establish common rules to assure that people are trying to evaluate within the same parameters and 2) it requires two reviews for every poem a writer posts. That means that everyone who participates gives as well as gets reviews. In the progress thread, for example, I gave many reviews, but most of my poems were ignored. That's discouraging to a writer, don't you think? Also, my way helps people who feel less comfortable with how to structure a review have a common way to go about it. Reviewing is a good way to learn how to improve one's own writing. I've always felt that if you want to learn how to do something, try to teach it to someone else. And the more reviews we do, the better for all of us. I have fairly limited time to do this myself and I'm sure others are in the same boat, but if ten people do two reviews each a week, a lot of poems get pretty extensive critique.

I'm not into rough where poetry is concerned. I do like honest, but that doesn't require making someone feel bad about their efforts. The reviewer may not intend that to be the result, but all one needs to do is talk to people who've had their writing excoriated to know that it generally makes them feel defensive and inadequate. I don't see how that helps anyone become a better writer. I know some people disagree with that, but they can do their thing the way they want. I'm just doing mine my way.

Does that help?

 

[annaswirls]

Yeah, I saw the guidelines, and they are certainly clear. I was joking about the chart rubriks used in grading or assigning points. What a nightmare!

As far as the Construction thread, I never thought of that as a review thread, just a place to keep versions. I usually ask before giving suggestions in there, or look for requests for the review. I use the thin skinned thread for critique.

Hi Anna.

The rubric is in the thread--you can read it if you like. It is tied to elements by which to evaluate a poem: theme, structure, word choice, and mechanics. I tried to explain what I think works in each of those criteria. I could have tried to associate number values with each of those, but it seemed unnecessary to me. The main thing for me was just to try to explain what I think works in each of those elements--people can agree with it or not. If they can improve on it, that's good.

The difference from other "review" threads here is 1) that it does try to establish common rules to assure that people are trying to evaluate within the same parameters and 2) it requires two reviews for every poem a writer posts. That means that everyone who participates gives as well as gets reviews. In the progress thread, for example, I gave many reviews, but most of my poems were ignored. That's discouraging to a writer, don't you think? Also, my way helps people who feel less comfortable with how to structure a review have a common way to go about it. Reviewing is a good way to learn how to improve one's own writing. I've always felt that if you want to learn how to do something, try to teach it to someone else. And the more reviews we do, the better for all of us. I have fairly limited time to do this myself and I'm sure others are in the same boat, but if ten people do two reviews each a week, a lot of poems get pretty extensive critique.

I'm not into rough where poetry is concerned. I do like honest, but that doesn't require making someone feel bad about their efforts. The reviewer may not intend that to be the result, but all one needs to do is talk to people who've had their writing excoriated to know that it generally makes them feel defensive and inadequate. I don't see how that helps anyone become a better writer.

I don't think that anyone tries to make someone feel bad, and I know you did not say that. I am not arguing, just stating my preference, I know everyone has a right to do their own thing

Some of the reviews in the thin skinned thread might seem harsh. I know I can be blunt with certain people. It is not ineveryone's nature to put a smilie face or a cushion in their reviews. John E. of ERWA gives harsh reviews because he is a bit grumpy and does not have it in him to try to sweeten his words. It is not always about opinion or taste. Sometimes parts of poems suck beyond taste, the pieces are just plain bad. But he has helped me more with my writing than almost anyone else in the 2-3 critiques in my poetry. I don't want a "I like your use of bluebells, but you might want to reconsider as they are very common in poetry to signify yada yada. My feelings are not hurt with a "Lose the bluebells. They are overused to the point of nauseous cliche." Especially when the poet is kick ass and knows what he/she is talking about. I don't have a lot of experience reading enough poetry to know what is cliche (although I see it more than a lot of people after you read the same reference in 100 poems, it gets across)


I know some people disagree with that, but they can do their thing the way they want. I'm just doing mine my way.

Does that help?

I figured that these were your intentions-- and after I asked I found Fly asked the same question andI had just wanted to check. I am glad you are giving it a go. I know when Patrick and Seattle put up the progress and thin skinned threads, they were given a big dose of doubt that a review thread could ever make it here! I am glad you have the confidence that your way will work! It is a great addition to the forum and has caught on very quickly.

And now I am up up and away.

~J

 

[Angeline]

Yeah, I saw the guidelines, and they are certainly clear. I was joking about the chart rubriks used in grading or assigning points. What a nightmare!

As far as the Construction thread, I never thought of that as a review thread, just a place to keep versions. I usually ask before giving suggestions in there, or look for requests for the review. I use the thin skinned thread for critique.



I figured that these were your intentions-- and after I asked I found Fly asked the same question andI had just wanted to check. I am glad you are giving it a go. I know when Patrick and Seattle put up the progress and thin skinned threads, they were given a big dose of doubt that a review thread could ever make it here! I am glad you have the confidence that your way will work! It is a great addition to the forum and has caught on very quickly.

And now I am up up and away.

~J

Thanks Anna. I don't necessarily have any confidence that my way is better than any other or that it would work particularly well, though that seems to be the case thus far. I just think it's always good to say up front "this is my standard" and "If you want reviews you have to give them--if you don't know how, here's a way to do it." Just from my experience as a teacher and a workplace manager, I've found people seem more at ease when they know how they're being evaluated and that it's as objective as possible. I like people to feel comfortable, to know it's not personal--especially when I know that some of the things I'm going to say will likely be less than "great job." And also, I think one can almost always find something good to say as well as saying what needs to be done to make the poem work better.

And honestly, I don't have any particular ownership of the thread or the rubric. I just wanted to help move us out of the cycle of arguing about the "right way" to do it and jump start "it" being done. I think this type of reviewing--knowing what to expect in advance and being required to give reviews to get them--will work well in a subforum. My thread can be moved or reconstituted or reinvented in that forum and I think that would be fine.

 

[eagleyez]

I'll give the girl a dozen extra kisses for you Twelveone.

She deserves those and about a gazillion more.