humiliation vs. degradation

[ownedsubgal]

what's the difference? is there a difference? do you have a need for one or the other, or both (whether to subject someone else to it, or be subjected to it yourself)?? when most people use these two terms in this lifestyle, do you think they're referring to TRUE humiliation and degradation, or simply embarassment and/or mild discomfort?

i happen to believe this is the case. many speak of "loving" humiliation, or "loving" being degraded...but can you truly love such things? these are not pleasant emotions...they involve being debased, being kicked down a few notches, so to speak. they are not meant for pleasure. now, i am a submissive who has a strong need to be both humiliated and degraded from time to time. but i could never say that i enjoyed those things...of course i don't enjoy it...but i need it, because i need the reminder of my place, and i appreciate it. and sometimes, when looking back at such situations/experiences thru rose colored lenses, i can find myself become very aroused thinking of them...but during the actual moment? gosh, i was suffering. i felt about 2 inches high. i felt worthless. definitely not arousing, and not meant to be arousing.

but this is how i know the terms and experience them. i decided to see what webster had to say about all this:

"de·grade
v. de·grad·ed, de·grad·ing, de·grades
v. tr.
To reduce in grade, rank, or status; demote.
To lower in dignity; dishonor or disgrace
To lower in moral or intellectual character; debase.
To reduce in worth or value


hu·mil·i·ate
tr.v. hu·mil·i·at·ed, hu·mil·i·at·ing, hu·mil·i·ates
To lower the pride, dignity, or self-respect of. "


humiliation to me is a reality check, a reality check that injures the pride. something that reminds me that i'm not so high/special/valuable as i may have thought i was. it's the truth, but a harsh truth. a white man referring to me sincerely as a niggerwhore...that's humiliation, because it's what i truly am in his eyes, but it's not exactly something that makes me feel all warm and tingly inside to be.

degradation to me goes a step past humiliation. degradation actually LOWERS who/what i am. something that says...well, you thought you were pond scum, but baby, you're the scum of pond scum. it takes me down yet another rung from the lowest worth/value i thought i had. were my Master to decide that he wanted me to not only be a piss toilet for men (as i am now), but a toilet for feces as well..taking it in my mouth...then that would be degradation. another step down the ladder, if that makes any sense.

what say you?

 

[Desdemona]

In all honesty, neither one floats my boat. I don't like them at all. I know some of you do, but I just can't go there at this point.

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

GREAT premise for a thread OSG. I'm going to collect my thoughts and come back to it.

~anelize

 

[yessmiss]

Actually ScreamerGirl has a great article on the subject at her site. Articles name is The Art of the Blush: Erotic Embarrassment and Humiliation

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

Big difference. Major difference. I have a deep seated and real need for and love of humiliation. Degradation? Nope. I don't want to go there. I've been there and it ain't pretty.

Like OSG, I agree that humiliation is a reminder that I'm not special, or perfect, or super sub. It's an ego-buster. I NEED it to get me out of myself, take me off that pedestal of self that I've got in my head and knock me down to sub size. No matter HOW great a submissive I think I am, how wonderful the service I'm giving, I've still got a little place of ego I'm operating from in there somewhere...hiding out...waiting. A good dose of humiliation is just the right thing to take me down, and put me in . my . place .

Degradation, on the other hand, is something that scares the living daylights out of me. Mainly because it's something I've done to myself in the past. Yes, I've degraded myself. Not in this relationship, but in another....note I said degraded myself. I didn't allow it to happen, I abused myself with that relationship in a way that was degrading and abusive to me. It wasn't embarrassing, or mildly uncomfortable--it debased me, dishonored me, and disgraced me. I was nothing after it was over. A shell.

Where I a woman of great pride, and unending arrogance, perhaps that line between humiliation and degradation would be fuzzier. Perhaps it SHOULD be fuzzier. Perhaps I would need more degradation...a few less rungs on the ladder down towards the scum of pond scum to use OSG's analogy. However, I have expended a great deal of time, and effort dealing with the vagaries and whims of my ego, and work daily on staying out of myself, and remaining focused on others, rather than me. It's not the easiest work in the world, but I'd rather work at that, than spend time being degraded.

It's a fine line, and a DIFFERENT one for each of us. I respect them both for the power that they have.

~anelize




Thanks for the ScreamerGirl essay plug YesMiss....I love her stuff (sig line).

 

[Pure]

hi owned s g,

i thnk you summarized the difference admirably well, including the idea the degradation goes further (down). humilations are more easily left behind, since the 'self' has not been lowered in worth.

as to who 'needs' degradation, anelize's thoughts are interesting. in sum, it seems she doesn't, you osg do seem to. temperamentally i'm with you.

J.

 

[ownedsubgal]

ego..

Anelize, i'm glad you brought up ego, that's a very major issue for most submissives...namely, it's the complete shattering of ego that many of our Masters strive for with us. first i'll admit about myself, that i've never been one to think very highly of myself. i've never been one to put myself on any pedestal. i've always had low self-esteem...this actually didn't begin to improve until after i began a loving relationship with my Master. but that doesn't mean i still didn't have those selfish, self-centered thoughts. actually, i believe having such extremely low self-esteem made me one more to focus on self than a typical, ego healthy person. my constant thoughts were...'i'm worthless...i'm crap...i'm nothing...no one will ever want me...no one can love me..' etc. my Master taught me that this was a form of egoism in itself, and he resolved to put an end to that. among other things, humiliation and degradation, on a regular basis, became his methods. why do i need to be degraded, and not simply humiliated? well that is a bit more difficult to explain...it's one thing to know your place...it's another to know that however low that place may be, you can ALWAYS be brought lower. it's a reminder that there is no comfy, safe resting place. if my Master wishes it, he can take me down, and down again, and down yet again. there is no limit to it. humiliation reminds me of what my place IS...degradation reminds me of what my place CAN be.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Humiliation exercises are all about reducing pride and subborness. They are NOT about breaking a person's will or spirit, or making them feel worthless...it is about breaking down barriers that hinder growth as a human being.

Otherwise, it is degradation, and that is not something I engage in.

 

[Netzach]

Humiliation to me, is erotic embarassment. It's like a typical SM spanking, it "hurts so good" and it's about being embarassed but getting an erection.

Degredation is more about catharsis, it's not erotic, it's like a heavy beating, it's not pleasurable but it can be necessary.

I employ these methods heavily with those receptive to them. With those who are not, it tends not to have any postitive effect whatsoever.

 

[catalina_francisco]

While I would not say I have low self esteem, I do not ever hold myself on a pedestal nor feel superior to another being, even animals who I respect in general more than the human race. This goes back to my belief system which has been with me most of my life, even before I was old enough to know Buddhism or any other religion even existed, or that there was a concept of equality. That being said, I am also my own worst critic, demanding a sense of continually striving for perfection and never accepting I am close enough to stop or rest. This does not dog my every moment as I am able to accept most times that perfection is a conceptual illusion more than a reality, and I am only human, but the awareness does keep me grounded.

I would think in terms of my submission, it would have to be the one area where I think I need the most work to reach an acceptable level I can live with, while Master thinks I have far surpassed anything he dared ever imagine in a slave. With these factors ingrained in my makeup, you would think humiliation and degradation would be counter productive to my quest for perfection, but to me it is necessary and welcome, but only under the guidance of Master. I do not open myself to be humiliated or degraded by the stranger in the street, or friends and family, nor do I accept it. Master is the only one who holds the power in who and how this takes place, and though he may engage others to make it a reality, they are his tools only.

Humiliation is a concept I understand, but my own belief system and needs often make it difficult to achieve through the usual means. It is something we both seek and thrive on, but is not an everyday occurrance at this point. Degradation on the other hand, as most agree, is a deeper issue and one which does change fundamentally who you are, and who you are perceived to be by others. This is what rocks our boat though for me to experience and become consumed by.

I won't lie and say I welcome it with open arms and without fear, it scares me stupid to the point of running a gamut of emotions from panic to downright terror, but it is a place he must take me and I must be taken. I am aware of some of the plans he has to do this by, and have already begun the journey, but the steps do not become easier to accept or execute as time passes. So while I dread it with every fibre in my being, it also excites me even during the acts which make it possible. Is a strange love-hate relationship for me....the more I hate and fear it, the more I love it and can't resist the decadence of savouring it in all it's depravity and perverse beauty. I guess it comes down once again to my love of challenges, and my need to not only give every part of my power to his care, but to feel the significance and result of losing that power totally.

Catalina

 

[AvaAdore]

Humiliation to me, is erotic embarassment. It's like a typical SM spanking, it "hurts so good" and it's about being embarassed but getting an erection.

Degredation is more about catharsis, it's not erotic, it's like a heavy beating, it's not pleasurable but it can be necessary.

that's how i feel about them. being sexually humiliated turns me on. i have no wish to be degraded or to degrade anyone else.

 

[Desdemona]

I must say this thread is very interesting. I have known for quite a while that some of us require humiliation and degredation. Your comments help me understand a little better however, I am stuck at the "scared stupid" point and don't know that I can get past it. In fact, unless it becomes important to Snooze, I don't care about getting past it because the emotional response I have to thinking about this is almost overwhelming.

Here is my question. Would you say that embarrassment is a pale version of humiliation? I sometimes find that something that mildly embarrasses me can be erotic. Or am I splitting hairs in my definition?

 

[catalina_francisco]

I definately think you are right Des in that embarrasment is a paler version of humiliation, at least for me. Neither is easy to take, but passes, and like you say, has it's erotic appeal.

I think in part that is what makes degradation bearable in the long term as it is erotic in the power play, and it is not from a basis where he actually thinks I am worthless, quite the opposite. Anything which transpires between us is with love. Part of the beauty of it is in highlighting to myself and him that what others think of me is of little consequence, what he thinks and feels is all that counts. It is scary, but I will face the challenge with his support.

Catalina

 

[Desdemona]

Catalina, you're giving me food for thought. I'll be watching this thread as others post. OSG, thanks for an interesting read.

 

[Pure]

Catalina said,

//the more I hate and fear it, the more I love it and can't resist the decadence of savouring it in all its depravity and perverse beauty.//

That's a very nicely stated and compelling sentence, from an overall quite moving posting.

J.

 

[Quint]

I do humiliation for its eroticism. I don't do degradation well or often, because I'm not yet complete and comfortable with myself--the ego is too fragile to be altered. A great deal of confusion comes from this, when I think it's humiliation and I can deal and then find myself sobbing much more than the situation warrants. Looking forward to the day when I'm strong enough to take it.

osg, I especially like the comments of your Master about ego in the form of self-pity. It's a very hard connection to make; if you didn't have a very strong sense of self, it wouldn't bother you so much to be looked down upon. Just like derision means nothing unless you wanted the person's approval.

Nice thread. I hadn't yet put together the concrete reason why I'm only stable up to a certain point.

 

[Pure]

Quint said,

"I hadn't yet put together the concrete reason why I'm only stable up to a certain point." [pure's emphasis]

That's true of all of us my friend. The difference is that the one who's with you knows where that point is--and how to get you there and...

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

I must say this thread is very interesting. I have known for quite a while that some of us require humiliation and degredation. Your comments help me understand a little better however, I am stuck at the "scared stupid" point and don't know that I can get past it. In fact, unless it becomes important to Snooze, I don't care about getting past it because the emotional response I have to thinking about this is almost overwhelming.

Here is my question. Would you say that embarrassment is a pale version of humiliation? I sometimes find that something that mildly embarrasses me can be erotic. Or am I splitting hairs in my definition?

I don't think you're splitting hairs at all, Des. In fact, it really depends on YOU. One person's embarassment is another person's abject humiliation. It's really a deeply personal thing, and something that can even change and move up or down a continuum over time, depending on where one's head is "at" so to speak.

I may be profoundly humiliated by something that might just slightly embarrass you, or vice versa. Everyone has their own personal triggers. Communication, observation, and time are the things that have let Him on what those triggers are, and the fact that He enjoys dishing it out doesn't hurt either. We have found that we fit together perfectly in this department, among others.

~anelize

 

[A Desert Rose]

Here is my question. Would you say that embarrassment is a pale version of humiliation? I sometimes find that something that mildly embarrasses me can be erotic. Or am I splitting hairs in my definition?

I am not deep enough for this topic so I go with you and analize.

Whatever you two say works for me.... (LOL and I'm winkin at you both.)

(edited because god dammit... i misspelled her name too!)

 

[catalina_francisco]

I am not deep enough for this topic so I go with you and analyze.

Whatever you two say works for me.... (LOL and I'm winkin at you both.)

Now I think you are underestimating yourself....I think you have a lot of depth myself.

Catalina

 

[Desdemona]

Now I think you are underestimating yourself....I think you have a lot of depth myself.

Catalina

It's all a facade she likes to keep up so people don't know she's actually soft and fuzzy inside.

 

[catalina_francisco]

It's all a facade she likes to keep up so people don't know she's actually soft and fuzzy inside.

LOL..I've noticed.

C

 

[Desdemona]

I don't think you're splitting hairs at all, Des. In fact, it really depends on YOU. One person's embarassment is another person's abject humiliation. It's really a deeply personal thing, and something that can even change and move up or down a continuum over time, depending on where one's head is "at" so to speak.

I can buy that concept.

I may be profoundly humiliated by something that might just slightly embarrass you, or vice versa. Everyone has their own personal triggers. Communication, observation, and time are the things that have let Him on what those triggers are, and the fact that He enjoys dishing it out doesn't hurt either. We have found that we fit together perfectly in this department, among others.

~anelize

I'm glad you two fit so well together. Maybe I'm just not developed enough to crave or appreciate humiliation in my life although I can intellectually see it's value.

 

[redelicious]

This is truly a thought provoking thread. Most of it goes beyond any experience I have ever had, but it gives me something to ponder.

Ty.

As long as I'm here, I may as well ask a question. Humiliation is not something I have ever directly played with, though I suppose I have been in situations that would have been humiliating to another. My thinking is that I got gratification out of being in those places knowing that I was pleasing my partner.

So, is it humiliation if you like it?

 

[Netzach]

I'm glad you two fit so well together. Maybe I'm just not developed enough to crave or appreciate humiliation in my life although I can intellectually see it's value.

Hey!

There's no paragraph in the subbottom index that says liking humiliation is mandatory. Or that it's the only path to enlightenment. I think that service overcomes the overripe ego just as nicely, for one. Humiliation is just one way of many for people to get over themselves.

M hates it and won't tolerate anything that smells like it. Not everyone is meant to eat liver, either. (bleah)