How would you help first-time writers?

[madelinemasoch]

I signed up for the volunteer editors program recently. A lot of the requests I get are first-time writers on the site. While a lot of them aren't technically atrocious, and where there are mistakes they can be explained by ESL in certain cases I've seen, they just don't read as stories. It's more like, everything that happened is summarized. Some of these are very long, but the tone never really changes from that of a summary to that of a story.

It's occurred to me that 1. these are probably the first things resembling stories these people have written (that's okay, the more the merrier and so on and so on)
2. They might not actually be trying to write a story, but instead to essentially write down the things that turns them on.

I'll provide a made-up, relatively condensed example of the like I'm describing without leaking what's been shared with me from other authors:

"I spend a lot of time watching BDSM porn. My wife obliges my habit, as she is into the scene as well. We have been to several lifestyle clubs together. When we first met, she gave me the best handjob I'd ever experienced. I came so hard my socks fell off. I've been besotted with her ever since."

Did you ever have a phase of writing like this starting out? How did you get past it? What would you say to someone to fix a story that goes on and on like the paragraph above, never delving deep into anything but just listing details and events that happened? I'm beginning to realize just how true it is that I would be a very bad teacher.

 

[Rob_Royale]

Depending on how you word some sentences it makes others unnecessary.

"My wife and I have been to several BDSM clubs together and we've both enjoyed the experience. She's an amazing lover whom I love more every day."

 

[yowser]

You've caught much of the spirit of the site. A huge plus here is the opportunity for folks to write down their experiences/fantasies, and most of the time, that's what you get - a one act scene.

I've always thought that things start to get interesting when someone crosses the line from writing a porn script to an actual tale, a story with people involved, with thoughts and emotions and conflicts and even better, an unusual event that causes some change to happen.

If someone wants help in telling stories, there is a lot you can do, maybe even if they just want to get better at describing sex (which everyone, apparently, thinks they can do marvelous well.)

I've always thought that writers need two things to become good: writing (as much as possible) and reading (even more, especially good work.)
I learn a lot from those smarter and more accomplished than I. Writing can make you humble.

But writers motivations here vary enormously, I think a writer needs to figure out what they truly seek to gain, number one, and then go for it - there's a big playground here to work in.

 

[alohadave]

I did editing for a while before I started writing. I offered line/copy editing and proofreading. Structural wasn't something I could do.

Editing will make you a better writer, as far as punctuation, grammar, and word flow.

I'd say that I'm still in the beginner stage, with rudimentary prose. AFAIK, the only way to get better is to write as much as you are able and to be honest with yourself about what you are creating so you can work on it in the next story.

 

[AchtungNight]

I’m more of a beta reader than an editor and I’m lucky enough to not encounter writers like you describe as of yet.

My advice? Encourage them carefully to write more interesting stories. Ask them if they have any experience with initially reluctant bdsm enthusiasts, conflicts between masters or subs, maybe an experience that led them to prefer bdsm to regular sex stuff… and that you would be interested to read about such things. This is all my speculation btw, I am not into bdsm, I’m more of a vanilla guy. But if it does have interesting plots involved with it rather than summarizing stories, maybe those are some outlines for them.

Good luck.

 

[Bamagan]

I'd probably tell them more or less what you said, but couch it in different terms. For example, if what they want to do is summarize a scene or a sex act that turns them on, they should consider ways to trim it down so that it's fast paced and doesn't linger and explores at least one character's POV or experience. Short 'strokers' can do very well here if the author has a relatable fantasy (or memory) and tells it crisply.
Likewise, if they want a longer work, advise them that readers who are looking for more than a wank generally expect some kind of character arc or other structure to the story. It obviously doesn't have to be complex one to satisfy the general erotica reader. In the example above, if that was their intro or summary, I'd suggest they concentrate on recounting the handjob in question and what made it special and make that the core of their story, or at least the first act, and then let that lead into whatever other adventures in BDSM they've had together, then wrap up with something about the porn they watch together and how that ties into their lifestyle (and frankly, unless the story has something to do with their porn habits, it doesn't bear mentioning at all).
Good luck! Editing things is too close to my day job to make me want to spend any time doing it here. Possibly I'm worried that I'll forget myself and insert a sex scene in the abstract of a population study of endangered mice.

 

[ronde]

I signed up for the volunteer editors program recently. A lot of the requests I get are first-time writers on the site. While a lot of them aren't technically atrocious, and where there are mistakes they can be explained by ESL in certain cases I've seen, they just don't read as stories. It's more like, everything that happened is summarized. Some of these are very long, but the tone never really changes from that of a summary to that of a story.

It's occurred to me that 1. these are probably the first things resembling stories these people have written (that's okay, the more the merrier and so on and so on)
2. They might not actually be trying to write a story, but instead to essentially write down the things that turns them on.

I'll provide a made-up, relatively condensed example of the like I'm describing without leaking what's been shared with me from other authors:

"I spend a lot of time watching BDSM porn. My wife obliges my habit, as she is into the scene as well. We have been to several lifestyle clubs together. When we first met, she gave me the best handjob I'd ever experienced. I came so hard my socks fell off. I've been besotted with her ever since."

Did you ever have a phase of writing like this starting out? How did you get past it? What would you say to someone to fix a story that goes on and on like the paragraph above, never delving deep into anything but just listing details and events that happened? I'm beginning to realize just how true it is that I would be a very bad teacher.

I've read a lot of "first writer" stories over the years and in some cases, there's not much you can do. The reason is that you're not teaching. You're trying to correct what's probably the way the writer is accustomed to writing anything. I've seen the same short, choppy-sounding sentences as in your example as well as a one-paragraph story that wouldn't fit on my desktop screen and stories with almost zero punctuation and sentences that run on and on.

Writers who honestly want to learn will pay attention and change. Those who, as you say, are just recording something that happened once probably won't. It's the writers who want to write but aren't sure how that can usually be helped. By far the hardest is correcting stories written by an author who speaks English as a second language. Some languages don't translate well into English because they use the same word in a different context to give it a different meaning. Some languages use a different syntax than English as well so you'll find verbs written before nouns, etc.

I've been able to help a few by explaining what makes up an actual story, that being a character or characters, a plot that includes where something happened, what happened, and how it turned out, and then some sort of ending or conclusion. I've also explained the reason for short paragraphs, and corrected punctuation errors. The language differences required a lot of explanation about how English works and doesn't work because compared to most other languages, English is a confusing mess.

 

[Bazzle]

Read, and read some more.
That's my advice.
Learn what you like the styles and stories.
Then write your work.
Then read, and read some more.

 

[StillStunned]

First decide what kind of story you want to write. Are you here because you've been reading strokers, and that's what you want to write? Great, get started!

If you have a longer story to tell, decide whether you want to write it as one piece, as multiple chapters or as an ongoing series. Now get started!

Also, never skip the proofreading stage. Too many mistakes convey the impression that you don't care, and then the reader starts wondering why they should care.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't want to sound dismissive, but I read many stories here (or start to read them) that read as though the author had never actually carefully read a story before. They show no grasp of the most rudimentary mechanics of writing, and no grasp of the most elemental storytelling principles.

So my first advice would be to read, and read carefully. Encourage an aspiring author to read the works of others and learn the basics from them. Encourage them to become good, careful readers and to figure out what they like to read. If they do that enough they will absorb ideas of how they would want to write.

Also, learn. One cannot master English grammar overnight, but one CAN, with a little effort, learn some basic rules that will take care of a huge percentage of the common problems. For instance, DIALOGUE. There are so many brief primers on how to do dialogue, here at Literotica and elsewhere, that there's no excuse NOT to know the 7-9 rules that are all it takes to pretty much get it right. Anybody can learn them. But a copy of Strunk and White. In only 60 pages one can read basic rules that will guide one through most basic grammar problems. A little goes a long way, but one has to put in the minimal effort.

Finally, write a lot, and write mindfully. Pay careful attention to what one is doing. So many problems are the result of obvious inattention. Practice, practice, practice, but practice mindfully, always trying to do better than before and not just falling into ruts.

 

[HordHolm]

Interesting thoughts. It took me some cringeworthy efforts that I would prefer the universe to erase to learn the structures that stories require: pacing, protagonists/antagonists, dilemmas and resolutions. Not that every story has to follow a format, but there is a storytelling 'grammar' that needs to include at least some of these elements to make it a story rather than a scene (and there's nothing wrong with a scene per se). As for advice... mine would be 'learn by doing.'

 

[SimonDoom]

As far as beefing up storytelling and narrative is concerned, one way to approach it is to develop the habit of thinking like a journalist. Let's look at the OP's example:

"I spend a lot of time watching BDSM porn. My wife obliges my habit, as she is into the scene as well. We have been to several lifestyle clubs together. When we first met, she gave me the best handjob I'd ever experienced. I came so hard my socks fell off. I've been besotted with her ever since."

This is a very good example of a lot of writing one sees. It never gets past the surface and it feels like a synopsis, not a story. How does one get past that?

Ask questions about details. Start with that first sentence: Who is "I"? How much time is a lot? What kind of BDSM porn? Where does "I" watch it, and when? Why did "I" watch so much of this porn? What's in the particular video being watched? Who, What, Where, When, Why, How. Keep asking the questions. This is the journalistic way of thinking. Flesh out the details in your mind. Force yourself to dig into them.

Focus on what's REALLY important and discard the rest. There's a great example I learned in journalism conferences when I was young, where a young journalist wrote something like, "God watched over the town of Millersburg as the fire raged through the streets of the city." The editor angrily snapped, "Screw the fire! Why didn't you interview God?"

GET RID OF infodump intros. Instead, start with the narrative describing how our hero is watching a BDSM porn video. Give details.

Then describe, in another paragraph, how the wife comes in the room, and they talk. Use their dialogue and interaction to describe how she obliges the habit, rather than telling the reader that she does so. Show, don't tell.

Get in the habit as a writer of regularly cycling among narrative action, description of the setting, dialogue, and internal feelings. Keep mixing it up. Get in this habit and the storytelling will come easier.

 

[EmilyMiller]

How would you help first-time writers?​

By telling them to write. By telling them not to worry so much about absolute quality to start with. Instead focus on relative quality; each story being a little better than the last.

There is no silver bullet.

Em

 

[yukonnights]

What others have already said is sound advice. My contribution is-> Delve into the characters thoughts / emotions / feelings, etc. The power of a written story over a porn video description is hidden there inside the characters. Even two people in real life may never really know what the other is feeling / experiencing but with the written words they can be revealed.

 

[MillieDynamite]

The sting of the whip on his ass sent shivers of delight inside. His agonized groans cause her pussy to moisten.

 

[onehitwanda]

The sting of the whip on his ass sent shivers of delight inside. His agonized groans cause her pussy to moisten.

wow.

 

[madelinemasoch]

As far as beefing up storytelling and narrative is concerned, one way to approach it is to develop the habit of thinking like a journalist. Let's look at the OP's example:




This is a very good example of a lot of writing one sees. It never gets past the surface and it feels like a synopsis, not a story. How does one get past that?

Ask questions about details. Start with that first sentence: Who is "I"? How much time is a lot? What kind of BDSM porn? Where does "I" watch it, and when? Why did "I" watch so much of this porn? What's in the particular video being watched? Who, What, Where, When, Why, How. Keep asking the questions. This is the journalistic way of thinking. Flesh out the details in your mind. Force yourself to dig into them.

Focus on what's REALLY important and discard the rest. There's a great example I learned in journalism conferences when I was young, where a young journalist wrote something like, "God watched over the town of Millersburg as the fire raged through the streets of the city." The editor angrily snapped, "Screw the fire! Why didn't you interview God?"

GET RID OF infodump intros. Instead, start with the narrative describing how our hero is watching a BDSM porn video. Give details.

Then describe, in another paragraph, how the wife comes in the room, and they talk. Use their dialogue and interaction to describe how she obliges the habit, rather than telling the reader that she does so. Show, don't tell.

Get in the habit as a writer of regularly cycling among narrative action, description of the setting, dialogue, and internal feelings. Keep mixing it up. Get in this habit and the storytelling will come easier.

This is the best answer. Thank you. I might just say the same thing to my edit requesters.

 

[saintcero]

Shoot first and ask questions later. [Except write instead of shoot.]

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I signed up for the volunteer editors program recently. A lot of the requests I get are first-time writers on the site. While a lot of them aren't technically atrocious, and where there are mistakes they can be explained by ESL in certain cases I've seen, they just don't read as stories. It's more like, everything that happened is summarized. Some of these are very long, but the tone never really changes from that of a summary to that of a story.

It's occurred to me that 1. these are probably the first things resembling stories these people have written (that's okay, the more the merrier and so on and so on)
2. They might not actually be trying to write a story, but instead to essentially write down the things that turns them on.

I'll provide a made-up, relatively condensed example of the like I'm describing without leaking what's been shared with me from other authors:

"I spend a lot of time watching BDSM porn. My wife obliges my habit, as she is into the scene as well. We have been to several lifestyle clubs together. When we first met, she gave me the best handjob I'd ever experienced. I came so hard my socks fell off. I've been besotted with her ever since."

Did you ever have a phase of writing like this starting out? How did you get past it? What would you say to someone to fix a story that goes on and on like the paragraph above, never delving deep into anything but just listing details and events that happened? I'm beginning to realize just how true it is that I would be a very bad teacher.

I'm not as tolerant as others, which is why I seldom read stories on this site.

The name of the site is "LITERotica", not "EROTiture".

There is a large percentage of writers here who couldn't give a crap about whether their stories contained any of the recognized literary components (character, setting, plot, theme, frame, exposition, ending/denouement, motif, titling, narrative point-of view). And forget about expecting to find any literary devices (tone, irony, figurative language, symbolism, foreshadowing) being employed in most of the stories here, especially by newer writers.

I'm not looking for or expecting Melville, Dickens, or Hemingway. I'm expecting something slightly more advanced than Penthouse Forum, and my expectations are seldom met. Why is it so widely accepted that erotic stories are unworthy of literary integrity?

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'm not as tolerant as others, which is why I seldom read stories on this site.

The name of the site is "LITERotica", not "EROTiture".

There is a large percentage of writers here who couldn't give a crap about whether their stories contained any of the recognized literary components (character, setting, plot, theme, frame, exposition, ending/denouement, motif, titling, narrative point-of view). And forget about expecting to find any literary devices (tone, irony, figurative language, symbolism, foreshadowing) being employed in most of the stories here, especially by newer writers.

I'm not looking for or expecting Melville, Dickens, or Hemingway. I'm expecting something slightly more advanced than Penthouse Forum, and my expectations are seldom met. Why is it so widely accepted that erotic stories are unworthy of literary integrity?

I'd draw a line between "new" and "don't care" writers. Everybody needs to start somewhere, and this site is as good a "somewhere" as anywhere else. For many authors this will be the first place they've ever shared a story with the wide world, and I don't expect them to meet professional standards. If I want uniformly high quality, I probably ought to go pay money for something written and edited by professionals.

But that's not the same thing as not valuing or aspiring to those skills. There's no shame in being a beginner, but it's a pity when somebody's been writing for ten years hasn't progressed beyond their first efforts.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'll provide a made-up, relatively condensed example of the like I'm describing without leaking what's been shared with me from other authors:

"I spend a lot of time watching BDSM porn. My wife obliges my habit, as she is into the scene as well. We have been to several lifestyle clubs together. When we first met, she gave me the best handjob I'd ever experienced. I came so hard my socks fell off. I've been besotted with her ever since."

Did you ever have a phase of writing like this starting out? How did you get past it? What would you say to someone to fix a story that goes on and on like the paragraph above, never delving deep into anything but just listing details and events that happened? I'm beginning to realize just how true it is that I would be a very bad teacher.

I see a lot of this. I expect a lot of new writers are coming from backgrounds where factual, non-emotive writing is generally considered a good thing, and some may not have a lot of experience in articulating their own emotions or may not be confident in doing so.

If I was giving feedback on something like that example, my advice might be: "This isn't a police report, your job here isn't to tell me what happened, it's to bring me along for the ride. Make me understand how it felt when you first went to a club together, when she gave you that handjob."

After that, I might try to get them thinking about things like sentence structure. Part of why that example feels so flat is that there's very little variation in sentence structure, it's pretty much all subject-verb-object with a bit of ornamentation. When the structure is flat, it's hard to stop the tone from feeling flat. Compare to something like:

"I spend a lot of time watching BDSM porn. Does my wife object? Hell no! She's into the scene as much as I am. It was she that suggested our first visit to a lifestyle club."

It still has a long way to go to become a story I'd read, but it's less monotonous, and it gives more room to fit some emotion into it.

Edit: A lot of people are more comfortable with talking than they are with writing. Something I find helpful now and then is to ask myself "if I was telling this to a friend, how would I say it?" and then adapt that into writing, because that can lead to a more natural structure/flow.

 

[alohadave]

"I spend a lot of time watching BDSM porn. Does my wife object? Hell no! She's into the scene as much as I am. It was she that suggested our first visit to a lifestyle club."

This is where I'm working to get to. I'm trying to figure out my voice and how to apply it to the story. It's a lot harder than coming up with the details.

 

[Bramblethorn]

This is where I'm working to get to. I'm trying to figure out my voice and how to apply it to the story. It's a lot harder than coming up with the details.

It's something I have to figure out for every new story, and I often make several false starts before I find the voice that works for that one.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

Chances are as well that none of them probably read. Or look deeper into what they read. Learning English ain't easy and those classes don't seem to teach much- like getting your license off the written test and sent out there to "learn on the job". I've seen telenovellas, they know better. Maybe use those as an example and have them try and put something like that to words. Maybe read something to them for general ideas? Ultimately one has to be well versed in a language to use it properly. If I wrote something in spanish, it'd probably be shit, too.

 

[ElectricBlue]

This is where I'm working to get to. I'm trying to figure out my voice and how to apply it to the story. It's a lot harder than coming up with the details.

Finding your own voice, your own natural style, is key. I'll always recommend new writers do an apprenticeship with a dozen or so short, simple, two character stories, so they learn the basics of grammar, dialogue, sentences. Ten or a dozen short pieces will teach them a whole lot more than a long story, done badly. They'll figure out what style comes most naturally too - that's so important - you want to write the way you breathe.

It's also why I suggest (whenever the endless "how do I edit?" requests pop up), that writers stop fucking about with their last story, put the energy into the next one. Get two stories under your belt, then three, then four.

Ask yourself, "What's so special about that last story that you think you need to edit it so much?" Probably, not much. The big one can wait 'til you're good enough to do it justice.

Writing is a slow craft, I think, but too many beginners want it to happen straight away.