How would you feel?

[Light Ice]

Yes LI, we are greater. Not better, but greater. In terms of us being greater, we dream more, create more, and on several levels experience more. Plus, again in terms of purely being greater, we can kill them all.

We certainly define "greater" differently.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

I think we've more common ground then you'll allow. But I won't push a conversation that's not wanted. Certainly no need.

we don't agree on what humans are.
You also feel that is is perfectly reasonable (and, I'll concede that this is consistent with your views on humanity) to force women into certain roles and prevent them from entering others.
Your idea of common ground is an unusual one.

 

[Last_Rider]

LI, I refer to "greater" in this case as simply stronger, more powerful, etc. Are we better, more enlightened, superior? Different can of worms.

 

[Drunken_Angel]

And as often happens a discussion on sexism has been derailed into a discussion on humanity.

So many places to get off that we never seem to arrive at the destination.

 

[Light Ice]

we don't agree on what humans are.
You also feel that is is perfectly reasonable (and, I'll concede that this is consistent with your views on humanity) to force women into certain roles and prevent them from entering others.
Your idea of common ground is an unusual one.

Well, my belief in certain aspects of gender bias certainly differs us, Vail. I can't deny that.

However, as an atheist, I'd imagine we have a great deal in-common in regards to what made humanity what it is. I am very interested, however, in how you explain such a culturally pervasive bias towards women (which does exist) through strictly societal means. Because, based on your beliefs, you cannot admit that there is a natural difference in the intended roles of either genders.

That's a conversation I'm always interested in having. I'm certain we won't agree but I'm also certain that it will be educational and enriching regardless.

 

[Drunken_Angel]

Well, my belief in certain aspects of gender bias certainly differs us, Vail. I can't deny that.

However, as an atheist, I'd imagine we have a great deal in-common in regards to what made humanity what it is. I am very interested, however, in how you explain such a culturally pervasive bias towards women (which does exist) through strictly societal means. Because, based on your beliefs, you cannot admit that there is a natural difference in the intended roles of either genders.

That's a conversation I'm always interested in having. I'm certain we won't agree but I'm also certain that it will be educational and enriching regardless.

Has she said that difference is solely social? Simplifying your opponent's argument with the intent to force them into an undefendable position is erroneous. It strips the argument of nuances that are important to its understanding and drives the conversation further into antagonism and further away from finding common ground.

 

[Light Ice]

Has she said that difference is solely social? Simplifying your opponent's argument with the intent to force them into an undefendable position is erroneous. It strips the argument of nuances that are important to its understanding and drives the conversation further into antagonism and further away from finding common ground.

But, by admitting nature intended the genders for specific roles, you're conceding that society was built around a natural inclination. That defeats a feminist argument in its foundation right away, doesn't it?

And if no, how come?

 

[Drunken_Angel]

But, by admitting nature intended the genders for specific roles, you're conceding that society was built around a natural inclination. That defeats a feminist argument in its foundation right away, doesn't it?

And if no, how come?

There you go again, Ice. You are simplifying my argument and trying to box me into a corner. "Nature intended" refers to an argument that because something seems to exist independent of human society that it is somehow "right" I don't accept this. There's a lot of crap that happens in nature too... populations starving, species being out competed by others. etc etc. Further, the assignment of what we observe as roles to "nature" obscures the fact that the interpretation of our observations comes from US... as does the meanings we assign.

However strangely enough, I don't entirely disagree with a statement that aspects of western societies have been based around real difference. Consider the social issues that arise around pregnancy, the heterosexist assertion that families must be made for raising children and the implications of that that often lead to women being seen as nothing more than baby machines. See where I'm going here?

Just because sexism may have started out based upon difference... it is we who assign meaning to that difference and those meanings are often brutal.

 

[Light Ice]

There you go again, Ice. You are simplifying my argument and trying to box me into a corner. "Nature intended" refers to an argument that because something seems to exist independent of human society that it is somehow "right" I don't accept this. There's a lot of crap that happens in nature too... populations starving, species being out competed by others. etc etc. Further, the assignment of what we observe as roles to "nature" obscures the fact that the interpretation of our observations comes from US... as does the meanings we assign.

However strangely enough, I don't entirely disagree with a statement that aspects of western societies have been based around real difference. Consider the social issues that arise around pregnancy, the heterosexist assertion that families must be made for raising children and the implications of that that often lead to women being seen as nothing more than baby machines. See where I'm going here?

Just because sexism may have started out based upon difference... it is we who assign meaning to that difference and those meanings are often brutal.

I'd challenge that you're not arguing a feminist argument then.

Mind you, this is all for conversational purposes, I'm not fighting a battle here. We've distinctly different viewpoints and there is validity and evidence in both sides. And, while I do not agree with many feminist viewpoints or ideals, I certainly believe that their extreme agenda has managed to accomplish more good than evil over the course of their history.

 

[Drunken_Angel]

I'd challenge that you're not arguing a feminist argument then.

*surprised raising of the brows*

Perhaps you should clarify here just what you think a feminist argument is. There are many feminist approaches, some based on biological difference, some based upon entirely social causes of sexism, some feeling that society itself must be restructured and others feeling that we should work within society. There are as many approaches and arguments as there are feminists.
Some point to capitalism as a core component of sexism and analyze sexist society in terms of labor division.

Mind you, this is all for conversational purposes, I'm not fighting a battle here. We've distinctly different viewpoints and there is validity and evidence in both sides. And, while I do not agree with many feminist viewpoints or ideals, I certainly believe that their extreme agenda has managed to accomplish more good than evil over the course of their history.

"Extreme agenda" usually points toward a part of society that tries to cast feminists has man haters and "hairy" lesbians. I sincerely hope this is not what you are pulling from. It puts a bad taste in my mouth even describing the social image leveled at feminists.

 

[Light Ice]

Haha. No.

There are far too many educated feminists to ever discount them as "man haters".

 

[Drunken_Angel]

*smiles*


So what do you feel is a feminist argument?

 

[Light Ice]

*smiles*


So what do you feel is a feminist argument?

A feminist argument is one in which reason is cast aside so long as it fails to support the desired conclusion. A feminist desires equality in all walks of life. They desire the only acknowledged difference between men and women to remain anatomy. That's not only unhealthy, in my opinion, but unrealistic.

That doesn't mean, however, that by fighting for that cause they don't do a -sincere- service to society.

In their dogged ways they help society peel back the unnecessary layers of bias that it has caked on throughout its few thousands years of evolution.

 

[Drunken_Angel]

A feminist argument is one in which reason is cast aside so long as it fails to support the desired conclusion. A feminist desires equality in all walks of life. They desire the only acknowledged difference between men and women to remain anatomy. That's not only unhealthy, in my opinion, but unrealistic.

That doesn't mean, however, that by fighting for that cause they don't do a -sincere- service to society.

In their dogged ways they help society peel back the unnecessary layers of bias that it has caked on throughout its few thousands years of evolution.

Wow.

You may wish to read up a bit... and it would be helpful if you could separate the argument from your assessment of it. I cant work with it as you have laid it out.

 

[Light Ice]

Wow.

You may wish to read up a bit... and it would be helpful if you could separate the argument from your assessment of it. I cant work with it as you have laid it out.

I've read quite a bit, I'm afraid. My sister is an extremely well-educated and articulate feminist. We love one another but seldom see eye to eye.

 

[Drunken_Angel]

I've read quite a bit, I'm afraid. My sister is an extremely well-educated and articulate feminist. We love one another but seldom see eye to eye.

I'm sorry, but with all respect, I cannot see how you've given feminist thought a real chance if this is your opinion of it. The implications you put into your statement do not follow from the philosophies behind arguments for equality, and equality is only one particular version of feminism- usually mischaractarized by those who disagree with it.

It rather disturbs me that you are claiming this is feminism, when I as a feminist can offer at least four different approaches and even argue the equality approach with completely different implications than you have presented. You overstep your bounds when you say my arguments are not feminist and retreat into a narrow definition that doesn't actually define.

I'll leave this though because I dont want to sound harsher than I am and the last thing I intend to do is attack. That is not an approach I like to take and is counterproductive to what I am trying to accomplish.

 

[Veroe]

Wait, what was this thread about?

How did this thread with a simple question originally devolve into another bloodbath in the gender wars.

No, please do not comment. I have no oppinion on feminism. I find it's the only way to avoid the mauling.

I'm like Rider, without the fatalism. If a cute girl eats alone at a restaurant I'm in I'd more than likely be too shy to approach her. If I was the one eating alone which is altogether too often, sighs, I bring along a good book to read while dining. (A few of the restaurants I go to regularly, I'm even known as "The book guy")

 

[chronicle_tenko]

I just took my wife out for lunch, and while we were enjoying our meal. A very attractive lady walked in, I mean this girl was CUTE!!! And sadly all by herself. My wife and I wanted so badly to go over and invite her to join us for lunch, but we respected her privacy and let her dine alone (Silk Scarlet always hated when people come over and hit on her while she was trying to eat)

But it got me to thinking, if you where eating alone, how would you feel if a couple came over and politely invited you to join them. I myself wouldn't mind at all.

Ok. Well to answer this question. No I wouldn't mind or care. I'd be grateful for the company. But I'm a man. And I hope my looks have nothing to do with it. And if they do. Well I'm just eating and talking.

Being on the other foot. I do this a lot. I have no ulterior motive. In any crowded but social eating place. (Not a sit down restaurant, but virtually any other place. ) Like a food court, or a chain lunch spot, (Like a wok box, or a Mc Donalds.) Or a diner. Or in a cafeteria. I will talk to people in line. Simply start talking. Friendly as possible, neutral as possible.

Hello.
My name is.
How are you today, what brings you here other than hunger?
Yes I particularly like the butter chicken too.

And if someone is sitting alone, and there are a lack of tables. I will ask to join them. Regardless of gender. If We are still in line. I will offer to buy their meal (If it is cheap) Or their drink otherwise, If I can just sit and eat with them. And if they say no, I don't take offense. And I will ask couples too if it's ok. Especially if it's busy.

Maybe there is a sexist point to that. But I don't see it. I am a social creature. I think the rest of people are too. Man or woman. Attractive to me or not. And if someone chooses to think I have an ulterior motive. Ok. That's their prerogative. But personally. I hate eating alone.

Cute company is just a bonus. I ask the acne guy too. Usually he can talk about star wars.

 

[Drunken_Angel]

Wait, what was this thread about?

How did this thread with a simple question originally devolve into another bloodbath in the gender wars.

No, please do not comment. I have no oppinion on feminism. I find it's the only way to avoid the mauling.

I'm like Rider, without the fatalism. If a cute girl eats alone at a restaurant I'm in I'd more than likely be too shy to approach her. If I was the one eating alone which is altogether too often, sighs, I bring along a good book to read while dining. (A few of the restaurants I go to regularly, I'm even known as "The book guy")

Hardly a bloodbath hun. I'm peaceful.

 

[Veroe]

Hardly a bloodbath hun. I'm peaceful.

A pacifist and a feminist.

In my experience that's a refreshing rarity.

Perhaps I should meet different feminists though.

 

[chronicle_tenko]

A pacifist and a feminist.

In my experience that's a refreshing rarity.

Perhaps I should meet different feminists though.

Should. They make pleasant company.

 

[Drunken_Angel]

Should. They make pleasant company.

 

[Light Ice]

DA is an absolute Angel. Trust me, I could argue gently with her for hours.

That said, I'd much rather dress her up in purple silks and then undress her. But, sadly, she'd be more interested in my date then me.

 

[Drunken_Angel]

DA is an absolute Angel. Trust me, I could argue gently with her for hours.

That said, I'd much rather dress her up in purple silks and then undress her. But, sadly, she'd be more interested in my date then me.

Angel blows ice a kiss and tucks a in his lapel. "You're a dear. I do hope you know that there is no vehemence in my words."

 

[Light Ice]

Angel blows ice a kiss and tucks a in his lapel. "You're a dear. I do hope you know that there is no vehemence in my words."

He nods, curling an arm about her deliciously rounded hips. It's an otherwise chaste affection, though. "I knew it when we began, Angel."