How to take a critique.

[Everyday_Man]

If anyone has read my 'feed back thread' you can see that I may not be the best at taking feed back?

How do you feel feedback should be given and if you're a writer, how do you feel it should be taken?

I'm a bit biased ... and looking back, I may be a bit rude ... to looking on this website, I didn't find a topic for this discussion.

How should one take feedback? and ... AND ... how should one give it?

 

[lovecraft68]

I can take any critique providing it is constructive and the person giving it has plausible points to back up his opinion. So even if I may not agree I can at least see they were making a solid effort to convey their thoughts

"Fuck off and die you piece of shit" will always be an eye roll and the comment "Man, it must suck to be you" in my mind and that is that.

Overly glowing "Oh my god this is the best story I ever read!" gets a shrug and a "only until you read the next story" I know they mean well, but that's not constructive.

Bottom line if people can say what they liked/did not like about my story in a thoughtful manner then I respect both their time and opinion even if I don't think they were right.

The best feedback is the type that can make me say "You know, they have a point there, I never saw it that way" that's the good stuff.

 

[Everyday_Man]

the 'I never saw that' is a good point .. as much as I hate to say it, because the guys who pointed it out was trying to be an asshole ... it makes sense.

 

[AZMotherLover]

I like the comments that are overly glowing, and I take constructive criticism with a grain of salt unless it comes from an author whose work is better than mine.

What bugs me are the comments that say "you should have written it like this or that".

If you want to read a story about a Asian mom who owns a shoe store and her son with a foot/shoe/boot fetish, you'll need to write that yourself. I'm not doing it.

 

[Everyday_Man]

If you want to read a story about a Asian mom who owns a shoe store and her son with a foot/shoe/boot fetish, you'll need to write that yourself. I'm not doing it.

That's very specific, on the plus side, I do like m Asians.

 

[AZMotherLover]

That's very specific, on the plus side, I do like m Asians.

I'm not making that up. Somebody suggested I write that story.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I've never had any useful criticism so I don't know. People bring their sentiments about me to their comments about what I write. I once ate a platter of shit tasting blueberry muffins because the cook was so wonderful. Readers do it all the time.

 

[sr71plt]

On Literotica, I believe that writing style feedback should only be given if specifically requested (not just by not turning comments off) and that, if requested, it should be understood that it can get quite critical and it should be received without argument and then used or not at the author's discretion.

 

[Everyday_Man]

On Literotica, I believe that writing style feedback should only be given if specifically requested (not just by not turning comments off) and that, if requested, it should be understood that it can get quite critical and it should be received without argument and then used or not at the author's discretion.

so you're saying an author needs to have a thick skin? ... take what you get, no matter how pressendted (not saying it's wrong) ... only asking.

 

[lovecraft68]

so you're saying an author needs to have a thick skin? ... take what you get, no matter how pressendted (not saying it's wrong) ... only asking.

NO, what he is saying-for the 10,000th time- is in "his" opinion no one here has the right or expertise to critique a story and no one here is looking for feedback, we all just post stories for free here for something to do.

If people did not want comments letting them know what people think their stories would stay on their computer and be read by no one.

But "his" opinion is what you should listen to.

As for thick skin? I do think people need it, authors, painters, musicians, anyone who puts their soul up for all to see. You're going to get a lot of good comments and feedback here, but you're gong to get crap too, so you just have to learn what to take seriously and what to let roll off you.

 

[Everyday_Man]

Can't argue with that (but I want too) but I can't ... that's good info.

 

[gordo12]

"Fuck off and die you piece of shit" will always be an eye roll and the comment "Man, it must suck to be you" in my mind and that is that.

If writing is about arousing great emotion in the reader can you deny that fuck off and die really is expressing great emotion? Perhaps it should be regarded as the "hallmark of success".

I've never had any useful criticism so I don't know.

Your writing is a useless waste of electrons....quit. There you go.... useful.

 

[Iceprincess12]

When I give feedback it's always from a readers point of view. I don't correct anything technical unless it's unreadable. My critiques are blunt and to the point so that they are understood, not to be mean. I try not to make anything personal, unless something rude is said, but I never mind if authors hate my review or totally disregard it. I enjoy doing it and hope that it's helpful but I do hope authors come back and read critiques that are given, even if it's to say 'I disagree'.

 

[Everyday_Man]

If writing is about arousing great emotion in the reader can you deny that fuck off and die really is expressing great emotion? Perhaps it should be regarded as the "hallmark of success".

If anyone tells you to 'fuck off and die' .. the have problems. Really deep and personal issues that need help.

 

[sr71plt]

so you're saying an author needs to have a thick skin? ... take what you get, no matter how pressendted (not saying it's wrong) ... only asking.

I posted that I don't think an author should be given a writing critique at all unless it was specifically requested. I don't believe in vigilante critiques on a story sharing site. If the author has asked for a critique, though, I think he/she shouldn't complain about what is given--should just sort through it for what she/he thinks is useful and not argue or complain about it.

 

[Everyday_Man]

I posted that I don't think an author should be given a writing critique at all unless it was specifically requested. I don't believe in vigilante critiques on a story sharing site. If the author has asked for a critique, though, I think he/she shouldn't complain about what is given--should just sort through it for what she/he thinks is useful and not argue or complain about it.

That's fair.

 

[slyc_willie]

Regarding the comments posted above, I'm of mixed mind. I think that the moment any story goes live on Literotica, the author of said story should be prepared to have their work perused with a critical eye. They should expect to be pushed through a meat grinder. It doesn't always happen, but the potential is always there, and may come years later. At the same time, considering this is an amateur free writing site, no one should put too much weight into any given critique unless it has been specifically asked for.

And if it's the case of the latter, brace yourself.

I've been toying with the idea of inviting readers to email me a detailed critique (if they are of the mind to do so) in an author's note at the end of each new story. Doing so would, of course, invite a legion of trolls, whose bullshit I would have to shovel aside to find the rare gem. Not sure if I'm going to do it; I might try it once and see what happens.

I, like most other authors on this site, receive a mixed bag when it comes to public comments. I get several of the "I've been reading here for years and this is the first comment I've ever left, because the story was so good!" now and then. They're encouraging, and I appreciate them, but not exactly constructive. Of course, I also get the "thro away ur krayons so u cant rite anymore shit" comments now and then, too. I leave those and wonder if they pull their hair out when they see my next story go up.

Now and then, however, something truly thoughtful gets posted in the comments, or is sent to me privately. Those are the comments I read over and over, whether positive or negative, because they are the ones sent by readers who took the time to think about my story. One of the best I ever received concerned my story, "Last Chance." The commenter stated he thought about the story for several days before coming back and leaving a comment. It wasn't glowing, it wasn't negative; it was, as far as I can tell, simply honest.

Those are the comments that mean something to me.

Bottom line, from my point of view, is to see writing as sex: hope for the best and expect the worst. And if you get the worst, accept it, learn from it, and do it better next time. If you get the best, thank your lucky stars, kiss the Buddha, cross yourself, have a zen moment, whatever . . . but don't let it go to your head. Keep trying. Because you're gonna fuck up sooner or later, guaranteed.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Your writing is a useless waste of electrons....quit. There you go.... useful.

You are a child of the universe and no matter how fugging ugly and stoopid you are the universe is unfolding as it should. Every train needs a caboose.

You bring out the orator in me.

 

[lovecraft68]

If writing is about arousing great emotion in the reader can you deny that fuck off and die really is expressing great emotion? Perhaps it should be regarded as the "hallmark of success".

If I thought they read the story you would be right. But a lot of that type of troll the "You're a sick piece of shit, worst writer ever" I have the feeling they just run up and down their favorite category to hate and drop those. Or they latch on to a certain author to harass.

The ones that are negative, but give details for example

"I can't believe she would do that, what a sick bitch, how could she do that, how could you write that?"

That's an example of getting someone to feel your story, in a negative way, but an emotion.

I could wall paper my room if I printed the "this is sick WTF" comments I received from Siblings with benefits.

I am convinced at the time it was being posted "Megan" was the most hated recurring female character on lit.

 

[lovecraft68]

Regarding the comments posted above, I'm of mixed mind. I think that the moment any story goes live on Literotica, the author of said story should be prepared to have their work perused with a critical eye. They should expect to be pushed through a meat grinder. It doesn't always happen, but the potential is always there, and may come years later. At the same time, considering this is an amateur free writing site, no one should put too much weight into any given critique unless it has been specifically asked for.

And if it's the case of the latter, brace yourself.

I've been toying with the idea of inviting readers to email me a detailed critique (if they are of the mind to do so) in an author's note at the end of each new story. Doing so would, of course, invite a legion of trolls, whose bullshit I would have to shovel aside to find the rare gem. Not sure if I'm going to do it; I might try it once and see what happens.

I, like most other authors on this site, receive a mixed bag when it comes to public comments. I get several of the "I've been reading here for years and this is the first comment I've ever left, because the story was so good!" now and then. They're encouraging, and I appreciate them, but not exactly constructive. Of course, I also get the "thro away ur krayons so u cant rite anymore shit" comments now and then, too. I leave those and wonder if they pull their hair out when they see my next story go up.

Now and then, however, something truly thoughtful gets posted in the comments, or is sent to me privately. Those are the comments I read over and over, whether positive or negative, because they are the ones sent by readers who took the time to think about my story. One of the best I ever received concerned my story, "Last Chance." The commenter stated he thought about the story for several days before coming back and leaving a comment. It wasn't glowing, it wasn't negative; it was, as far as I can tell, simply honest.

Those are the comments that mean something to me.

Bottom line, from my point of view, is to see writing as sex: hope for the best and expect the worst. And if you get the worst, accept it, learn from it, and do it better next time. If you get the best, thank your lucky stars, kiss the Buddha, cross yourself, have a zen moment, whatever . . . but don't let it go to your head. Keep trying. Because you're gonna fuck up sooner or later, guaranteed.

You use crayons? I'm still using finger paints.

You're right about the 'gems' you have to wade through a lot of useless 'attaboys' and 'die scum' to find useful thoughtful feedback and comments, but they're worth it when you get them. I like the ones that address the story more than the sex because it shows they, like me, care more about making the characters seem real than just fucking.

These two comments are two of my favorites posted on "That Damn Red Dress" my disturbing father/daughter incest story that I expected to be torched because the incest was an act of desperation not "Oh, my daddy is so hot!" but it seemed people 'got it'

I think its the story I'm most proud of here in many ways, these are the comments back to back saying "I didn't really like it, but damn"

02/04/14 By: tygz
Definitely disturbing - verging on erotic horror, except I didn't really find it especially erotic.

Still, it's a very powerful story and exceptionally well-written - I say this without being able to decide if I actually *like* the story - it merits 5 stars even if you don't get off on the semi-nonconsensual aspects of it (she didn't feel like she had a choice, after all; she had a figurative gun to her head, and I personally don't get excited by that imagery).

Ever see a movie that had a strong message, was acted really well and still made your skin crawl? That movie probably won many Oscars; this is the short-story equivalent. Read it.

Delete the above comment.

Disturbing?
02/04/14 By: Anonymous
Yes, it was disturbing. It was more disturbing than erotic, but I have to give a 5 to writing that can disturb me that much! After all, Kafka did the same thing to me!

 

[NaokoSmith]

I asked Lien_Geller for feedback on one of my stories just recently in his thread. He was, as is his style, quite harsh. When I first read his comments, I of course threw myself into some goosefeather pillows sobbing, "but my story is perfect!"

Initially, as always, I completely skipped on the positive things he said about my story and I know I will have to go back and re-read to make sure I take them on board.

He made some very insightful remarks about my writing which I was subsequently really glad to have. I had just put my story up as his thread was a bit quiet and I wanted to bump it up, but I'm glad I did as I have got a much better idea about what to work on when I start writing original chapters again.

I came on this site to learn more about writing erotica. I got side-tracked into working on reviewing myself, but with a particular slant. I look out for stories I think will appeal to people who want to have a bit of fun without getting in too deep. When I review those, I keep a light hand on the technical issues, although I will talk about these for the author to look at, and for other writers to consider.

When I do a review, I think about what is appealing about the story and how to describe it so readers will know if they will enjoy it. Then I like to write about wider literary or philosophical issues which are brought out by the story (e.g. I was just writing about Barthes' concept of the 'death of the author' and how erotica audio stories fit with this). I might also say something about things which were done technically very well or which needed a little attention.

Beatnic_jazzman put his story up for Lien to review and Lien absolutely panned it, and Beatnic was very gracious about that. His post is a good example of how a writer should take feedback.

 

[tomlitilia]

I think the difference between good and bad critique (in terms of how useful it is) lies in the intent of the person person giving the feedback. The good type is focused on actually improving the creators work, either the specific one feedback is given to, or long term quality. The bad type primarily focuses on the ego of the person giving the feedback. This usually shines through in more then one of the following:

1) Inability to point out the good parts. If you actually want someone to improve, make sure to point out what he or she is doing right already.

2) Making the review about the reviewer. Sometimes people giving feedback use it as a way to highlight their self-proclaimed brilliance, often poorly disguised by a humorous tone. Rarely do true experts have this need.

3) Making the review itself the main focus. This is common in music and film reviews where the reviewer often tries to be witty at the expense of the creator(s). I guess it makes sense in a cut-throat culture where journalists need the exposure to stay in the game, but it makes little sense in terms of informing the potential audience about the work they are reviewing, and has no constructive value whatsoever.

4) Unspecific remarks. If you want the creators work to improve, be specific in your feedback. Saying things like "some sentences were poorly written" isn't something the creator can work with, and remarks like that is just a way to give the impression that the person giving the feedback could have done it better.

5) Suggesting alterations to tickle their own kinks. It's probably better you write this story yourself.

 

[NaokoSmith]

I went back to look at your thread and I see they were a little rough with you!

Personally I like a little rough .

And I take forum posts in the same way I take emails. I imagine the writer dashed them off in a hurry, wanted to get the sense of the message across and may not have thought about the most tactful way to do so.

The other thing to bear in mind is that there are always people on the net who are bored and get a kick out of making other people indignant and huffy. When something is said that caught you on the raw, it's sometimes more annoying for them if you go: "Oh really? Will you pass the butter."

Mostly you were pretty good about taking critical comments on your writing.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I say most people know what to do and are too fucking lazy to change. They want enablers who kiss their asses and award plastic trophies. I don't care if you like me, most people don't like me...my mom tried to murder me a few times, starting when I was three. So somethings wrong with me but it doesn't show up on any tests, and I'm over trying to win hearts and minds. I dance a fugging gig knowing Naoko hates me.

What I usta do with patients is hit them between their eyes with a stick of lumber. Give them something solid to aim their resistance at. I do the same with writers. If your writing sux it sux, if it gets better I say so. Its all about trust.

 

[sr71plt]

Regarding the comments posted above, I'm of mixed mind. I think that the moment any story goes live on Literotica, the author of said story should be prepared to have their work perused with a critical eye. They should expect to be pushed through a meat grinder. It doesn't always happen, but the potential is always there, and may come years later. At the same time, considering this is an amateur free writing site, no one should put too much weight into any given critique unless it has been specifically asked for.

I will continue to disapprove of vigilante critique on Literotica. No one has a right, as you do, to assume that folks are posting stories here to be critiqued or because they are trying to develop their writing ability. I think most are posting stories here to share the arousal factor and I think the "I can teach you" vigilantes should just leave them the hell alone unless they ask for writing critique.