How to: Stop being lead on

[Leeleigh]

Raven.. honey don't get drunk.. If you get drunk, you may lose all inhabitions and pour your heart and soul out to her.. Unless this is what you want to do, you may want to consider moderation.. And there is one other consideration.. A drunk man does not make for a good lover, should you get that far..

 

[Exciteher]

Just a few, unordered thoughts...

If I was cuddling with a guy ten hours without anything happening, well I would assume he saw me as a friend...

Most guys I have been involved with I didn't know for very long before htat.....

....but for me, if I know someone for a while and nothing happens (especially if there was cuddling that didn't lead to more) in most cases I lose interest and start feeling to them more like a friend. Or I get completely obsessed with them and am to shy to make a move, either. One of the two, not sure by what pattern I decide which of the two will happen.

Munachi, yes I think thet after ten hours without anything happening, being seen as a friend is actually the very best outcome one could hope for... on the other hand I think it would piss many women off, because they would be left thinking "Am I not sexy enough?" That makes women feel bad.

In my experience, while there have been exceptions, the usual pattern is once there is mutual interest, it things do not steadly progress, and fairly quickly, the relationship will not go anywhere.

If you think back on your relationships Munachi, if nothing happened with your dates would it be the more passive dates that you would lose interest in and you would look at as friends...and the more "tougher and confident" types that you would obsess over? I ask that , because I have seen this pattern.... and it makes sense.

Think in terms of dating Woody Allen versis James Dean. Seems, as a woman, if nothing happened with Woody Allen, his passive neurosis would not be interesting romantically.. where as if James Dean did nothing...there is always the impression he will do something in the future, maybe he was just having an off day! Make any sense?

Bottom line. Women want to feel sexy. How they will get on with you is directly related to how you make them feel. If you do not make them feel sexy, especally after they physically "invite" you...they will move on. Yes, they want love and respect, but if that is ALL they think you will give them, then you can be no more than a friend in their eyes. At least that is my experience.

 

[Munachi]

If you think back on your relationships Munachi, if nothing happened with your dates would it be the more passive dates that you would lose interest in and you would look at as friends...and the more "tougher and confident" types that you would obsess over? I ask that , because I have seen this pattern.... and it makes sense.

Think in terms of dating Woody Allen versis James Dean. Seems, as a woman, if nothing happened with Woody Allen, his passive neurosis would not be interesting romantically.. where as if James Dean did nothing...there is always the impression he will do something in the future, maybe he was just having an off day! Make any sense?

Somewhat like that... Well sometimes if I think he really is not interested I tend to obsess while when I think he is just too shy (and I am shy too) I get bored... *shrug* no one said I wasn't complicated or anything...

Of course it is a bit simplified and depends on each woman and each guy...

 

[Exciteher]

Raven.. honey don't get drunk.. If you get drunk, you may lose all inhabitions and pour your heart and soul out to her.. Unless this is what you want to do, you may want to consider moderation.. And there is one other consideration.. A drunk man does not make for a good lover, should you get that far..

This is the absolute truth!

Ravin, If you are going to get drunk, and you want any chance of rehabilitating this relationship.. make sure you and her are in different physical places. Like miles apart dude. Hitting on a girl when you are drunk is the most unsexy thing I can possably imagine, except maybe doing that and then throwing up on her and passing out.

Being a good lover is about becoming exqusitely aware of what your partner wants and how she feels..in the moment.....alcohol will make you exqusitely numb!

Just think, how would you feel if some drunk chick started hitting on you? Would you feel like you were the sexiest thing in the world...or would you think she was gassed and the bottle was doing the talking? Duh!!!

You are the guy talking about respect.. WTF???

Another pattern is emerging here Ravin, you consistantly fail to step into her shoes! You fail to look at yourself and your actions through her eyes, or consider her wants.

What if she does not want a heavy relationship right now, but she truely likes you, is attracted to you and wants you to excite her, move her, and have sex with her. Would that be the end of the world? Could that be the "other thing you don't understand" that is going on here?

 

[Exciteher]

Somewhat like that... Well sometimes if I think he really is not interested I tend to obsess while when I think he is just too shy (and I am shy too) I get bored... *shrug* no one said I wasn't complicated or anything...

Of course it is a bit simplified and depends on each woman and each guy...

I hear you, and just so you know, I find complicated ...mmm...compelling...

So lets say the guy is really shy, but he does something, even if it does not come off perfectly, and then he does something else, maybe even something really hysterical like knocking over a lamp as he reaches for your breast, you would think he is interested then, would you not? And it would make you a bit less shy that he was less shy? Or no?

Yes it is a bit simplified and depends on each woman and each guy, but for now simple is good I think...

 

[dwh2]

Let's cut to the chase

1. First, girls play games. Doesn't matter what age. They all do. And they do it WAAAAY better than men do. The longer it takes you to understand that, the longer you will go without sex. Accept it. Learn how to play their game.

2. Nice=No sex. Find a way to make her feel you got an edge to you. Even if it's not true. Edge=sex.

3.

I didn't want to be disrespectful

Girls LOVE guys who don't want to be disrespectful. But they don't put out for that kind of guy. It's hard to tell in words what works. You have to try different things. Eventually something will work and you'll get the hang of it. But you have to make moves. If she likes you enough to chat you are at step one. Then at some point make a subtle move. If she pulls away, you need a different tack. If she plays along, make another move, at the right time. She will give you cues all along the way. But she won't make the move for you.

4. You aren't meeting the wrong kind of girl who will lead you on. Your behavior is bringing out that aspect of women. Use a different technique and she will put out. Use the same technique you've been using and 9 out of 10 women will lead you on...

Hang in there brother. MANY guys have been in your shoes and you're very young. You will get there.

 

[dwh2]

Ok, so as told in my last thread "How to: make a move", I was interested in this girl, and we were getting close. Well it turns out that's just a NORMAL thing she does, and likes to cuddle and all this shit.

Ah. I love women. I can just see her telling you that. She's full of shit and you believed her. Next time a woman tells you that tell them you love to cuddle too. Let's cuddle some more. Naked. Say it with a smile. Even if she says no as long as you got her to laugh you made a step. Make sexual innuendo as often as you can (once you got to that stage).

Women are far more sexual than men. And more dirty. You just have to know how to bring it out in them.

 

[thiscouldbtricky]

1. First, girls play games. Doesn't matter what age. They all do. And they do it WAAAAY better than men do. The longer it takes you to understand that, the longer you will go without sex. Accept it. Learn how to play their game.

2. Nice=No sex. Find a way to make her feel you got an edge to you. Even if it's not true. Edge=sex.

3. Girls LOVE guys who don't want to be disrespectful. But they don't put out for that kind of guy. It's hard to tell in words what works. You have to try different things. Eventually something will work and you'll get the hang of it. But you have to make moves. If she likes you enough to chat you are at step one. Then at some point make a subtle move. If she pulls away, you need a different tack. If she plays along, make another move, at the right time. She will give you cues all along the way. But she won't make the move for you.

4. You aren't meeting the wrong kind of girl who will lead you on. Your behavior is bringing out that aspect of women. Use a different technique and she will put out. Use the same technique you've been using and 9 out of 10 women will lead you on...

Hang in there brother. MANY guys have been in your shoes and you're very young. You will get there.

I'm not liking your number 1 on there buddy... lol
Sure, we do all play games... but so do you.

 

[Private_Label]

Just my opinions Raven:

1. Have you asked her other driends privately what they think of her? They can tell you if she leads people on a lot or if she is just someone that takes her time getting to know someone.

2.

She said she wanted to be friends and wasn't looking for a relationship... My birthday tuesday, I want to see if she will spend the night like we did before. If that happens, I would like to make a clear move. Even though she has said, she wanted to be friends, there is other things going on I just don't understand yet.

Since she has stated she just wants to be friends, you should either accept that or walk away. Pushing the matter will not endear her to you. You are young, she is (probably) young, give her the space she needs to learn about herself and what she wants. Right now, maybe the best you can hope for is friends with benefits. If that isn't what you want, then go find someone else. If you are interested in this girl, then take the time to get to know her and for her to get to know you. You have said you have only known her for a few months, maybe she just wants the time to discover more about you. If you are interested in her and not just a warm body next to you (sorry to be so crude about it) then give her the time to learn more about you.

 

[dwh2]

I'm not liking your number 1 on there buddy... lol
Sure, we do all play games... but so do you.

Haha. Of course we do. But in all games there are the minor leagues and the major leagues. We aren't smart enough to play in your league.


P.S. As long as you translate every sentence of ours as "wanna fuck", you've got us all figured out. We are so dumb.

 

[Exciteher]

1. First, girls play games. Doesn't matter what age. They all do. And they do it WAAAAY better than men do. The longer it takes you to understand that, the longer you will go without sex. Accept it. Learn how to play their game.

2. Nice=No sex. Find a way to make her feel you got an edge to you. Even if it's not true. Edge=sex.

3. Girls LOVE guys who don't want to be disrespectful. But they don't put out for that kind of guy. It's hard to tell in words what works. You have to try different things. Eventually something will work and you'll get the hang of it. But you have to make moves. If she likes you enough to chat you are at step one. Then at some point make a subtle move. If she pulls away, you need a different tack. If she plays along, make another move, at the right time. She will give you cues all along the way. But she won't make the move for you.

4. You aren't meeting the wrong kind of girl who will lead you on. Your behavior is bringing out that aspect of women. Use a different technique and she will put out. Use the same technique you've been using and 9 out of 10 women will lead you on...

Hang in there brother. MANY guys have been in your shoes and you're very young. You will get there.

Hey, there is a lot of truth in this, its the basic "player" attitude, and it works and it will get you laid. I think the premises and values it is based on are are all askew, but its effectiveness does not really rely on that anyway. It is a numbers game mostly. And you know what?" If you want to find a good match, dating a lot of different people is a GOOD thing.

But, ultimately the "player"attitude is limiting. Again, it is usually inauthentic, and there are places in the land of the sexual and erotic that require authenticity and trust to get to. Many in BDSM, and in tantra for instance. Also, it can have some bad "karmic" consequences because of the type of deceptions involved.

I agree with "Girls LOVE guys who don't want to be disrespectful." Amen.

I do not agree with: "But they don't put out for that kind of guy."

This sort of buys into the idea that all sexual advances are disrespectful. The reality is, that women will not "put out" so to speak, with guys that have the attitude that getting sexual with a woman is disrespectful and the guy gets so locked up by that notion that he won't make any moves when he is getting cues moves are welcome.. wanted even.

The reason the player thing works is that it provides a formula to make to make a woman feel sexy, and it keeps the guy from putting women on a pedistal so high she cannot be touched. It recognizes that rejection is often to be expected, and that the odds of meeting someone compatable go way up the more women you approach. By doing that, skills get built, and you learn to read womens body language,and you learn not to"idealize" them. It is a technique that makes the guy APPEAR confident and 'not needy" regardless of the reality. Hey, if it works for you and no one gets hurt, knock yourself out. Perhaps the best thing about it is that younger guys can get some experience and build real confidence with women...and eventually move into more authentic modes of being...usually lead in that direction by the wiser women they happen to connect with, or by their conscience after someone gets hurt. For older guys...grow up for God's sake.

You can be a nice guy, just don't be a wimp!...just be honest about your sexuality, needs and intentions, act accordingly while still being a gentleman. That will automatically give you "edge." As a model for this.. James Bond is a gentleman..and he has plenty of edge.

Bottom line. Women love to feel sexy. Men love to feel sexy. All other things being equal, (rapport, interest,love..whatever) it is the way you make your partner FEEL about how desirable they are.. and you are.. that will determine the course of the relationship.

If a gal is hoping for you to make a move, and you don't , she is NOT (with rare exceptions) going to go home and say "Gee, he is SO NICE that he didn't even try to get to first base. Isn't he wonderful?" She is going to be less than thrilled. She IS going ask herself "Am I that sexually boring and undesirable??" or think "How can he be that boring... is he too_____ (young, insecure, shy,shamed, weak, clueless, insert favorite wimpy adjective here) ?"

 

[dwh2]

I think you're assuming that I'm a player. I'm not. I am respectful of women. I do put them on a pedestal. I've never cheated on a girl.

I love meeting women of any age any shape. I love flirting with them. With no intention of sex on my mind. I just enjoy the interaction for whatever it is and however long it lasts. Learning what makes them tick. A life-long endeavour

And over the years I've learned that women have the power. They choose their mate, not the man. Even if he is supposedly making the opening move. For me a prerequisite to a relationship is that the woman has to be clearly interested in me. If I have to work on her, she just isn't that into me and I won't waste my time. Because it will go nowhere if she's not into you.

That said, there are certain approaches that turn women on. Turn them on and more of them will be into you. And eventually you may be the one with some kind of choice. It's hard work to get there. Don't be resistant.

From the stuff you're telling me, it sounds to me like you want to believe that women think like you want them to think. They don't. You have to think of this in evolutionary terms. Nature isn't kind to "nice". A "nice" lion gets eaten alive. A "nice" caveman won't protect the home like a "fierce" caveman will. Woman want to be protected. Big bad guy will do the job. The nice guy is good to have around. He'll help clean up the cave, take out the garbage. Do the laundry and dishes. But the bad guy is even more important to have around because he'll kill the wild beasts threatening her and her children and can hunt well. And she'll give him sex to be in control and have him protect her. She can get the nice guy to do whatever she wants without even having to give him sex.

Today we live in an unnatural world where brain beats brawn. But women's libido react to the way it was for a hundred thousand years, not 100 years. So you got to pretend you have some fierce bad guy in you. Even if you don't. I'm not saying you should lie or be disrespectful. Every person has good and bad in them. Let them see the bad that exists and hide more of the good. You aren't doing anything wrong or being deceptive.

I used to be a lot like you, so don't be offended by my comments. But back then I never got anywhere with women. Things are much better now after I learned some basics.

 

[Exciteher]

Hi dwh2,
loll! No, I'm not offended, and I hope no offense is taken. I do not assume you are a player, I have no way of knowing that! And whatever works for you or anyone else is what works! Im just saying there are choices. What I do say, is that the model you present of what makes women tick is the basic "Player" model, no way around that. I have had a life long love and fascination with the women myself. Any frustrations I have are not with bringing women into my life, but with the very short time we have on this planet to enjoy it with them. And I have learned that the cosmos of sex and the erotic is unimaginably more vast, expansive and fulfilling than is commonly thought. All I am saying is there are other "models" that achieve better "outcomes" with the benefit of avoiding the limitations inherent in the player approach . Those limitations have mainly to do with "open" vs. "closed". Also, there is such a thing as being too attached to your outcomes...as you know.

As I said, the "techniques" you outlined for 'hooking up" work. What makes them work is they codify some dynamics thet exist between the sexes. It's just that I don't buy the player conception of what those dynamics really mean or are, and what is behind the very real "Nice guy vs. Bad guy" phenomenon. The longer we stay in that old paradigm, the longer the current rather impoverished understanding of sex will exist. The player approach is to the question of "What makes women (and men for that matter) tick" vs. just being truly open and authentic as arithmetic is to calculus. From an evolutionary point of view, what you set forth about how the sexes interact is a "pop" oversimplification of evolution...especially human evolution. And that description, while recognizing certain basics, like a woman's need for safety, to be protected and cared for, is limited by its oversimplification. But that is what makes it practical. For those starting out, it can indeed get the door open. But what then... how far do you want to go? The player approach is just not creative enough for me.

"Today we live in an unnatural world where brain beats brawn."

We do not live in an unnatural world. You can see it has always been that way if you understand evolutionary history.

"From the stuff you're telling me, it sounds to me like you want to believe that women think like you want them to think. They don't."

lol! No, not sure how you came to that conclusion! I repeat, it's all about how a woman FEELS when she is with you. And being aware of how she is feeling. Everyone has their own unique world of thought and feeling. I do not have to believe or presuppose anything about a person if I have awareness. People have many ways of saying what they feel and think if you stay aware and open to them. They will "tell" me what they think, what they want and how they feel if I stay present with them, and if I can be abundant enough to set what I believe aside and walk in their world. I know what you are trying to say here, I just think the givens you are starting from do little to help increase awareness, this is limiting for me,...

So you got to pretend you have some fierce bad guy in you. Even if you don't.

There are places you can go with a woman, destinations in pleasure, where pretending will not cut it. You will run into the wall of your own fears. And you will not be able to hide them if you want to trancend them. The "Act as if" or modeling thing is valuable when you are learning and perhaps many of us had to start there, but we don't have to get stuck there. The real path is to build your self and your personal power.

I'm not saying you should lie or be disrespectful. Every person has good and bad in them. Let them see the bad that exists and hide more of the good. You aren't doing anything wrong or being deceptive.

Do you see how you have circled around to a contradiction here? Is the day good because it is light? Is the night bad because it is dark? Are you sure you want to put up with the limitations and paradoxes of sorting things into "good" and "bad" boxes? A different way to look at this is that some people hide their sexuality and their power, when it is sexier to show it. They think that is the "nice" thing to do. The trouble is, be it hiding your "good" or "bad"... or hiding your sexuality and your power... it is inauthentic. See what I am getting at here?

What will happen if you hook up with that sublime woman, the one that can take YOU where you never admitted to yourself you could or wanted to go, that woman that is so aware and sensitive that holding a secret or hiding anything from her is impossable? Do you really have the time left to miss the experience of sharing the ecstasy she can give you, that unique ecstasy only she has the keys to and that you could have never have imagined? Does anyone have that much time?

 

[rosco rathbone]

the one that can take YOU where you never admitted to yourself you could or wanted to go, that woman that is so aware and sensitive that holding a secret or hiding anything from her is impossable? Do you really have the time left to miss the experience of sharing the ecstasy she can give you, that unique ecstasy only she has the keys to and that you could have never have imagined? Does anyone have that much time?

Damn. Where do I sign up?

 

[Ravin the Poet]

Alright, I am lost with everything people have post so I will sum other stuff up.


First off, the drunk thing. It's my birthday and about 20 of my friends are going to be there. I will be drunk, and we all know it. I am turning 20. It's going to happen. I doubt I will hit on her.


One thing I don't think people here are understanding. I am VERY UNEXPERIENCED when it comes to physical contact, so making a move just wouldn't happen. I cannot stress this enough, because I am doubting that any person in my shoes would have done anything different. I am very open about sex in general, but as stated, I don't get much physical contact, and I am happy that I do get it when I do.

The fact is, I am not looking for sex from her. Well it would be nice, but that's not my motive. She says she doesn't want a relationship right now. So basically I think this...

1) I need to talk to her about her feelings for me, and is it just a friendship because right now she wants no boyfriend or will it always be like that
2) Did I make her feel unwanted when we spent that much time together.
3) Where does this leave us.

I care about her a lot. The time for pick up lines is over, and it basically comes down to needs/wants and emotions between us. I have said over and over how much I regret not doing anything more on her birthday, but thats the past. I need to worry about what is going to happen in the future. I am just playing it all by year right now.

I like her alot, I think she is very beautiful and an extremely sexy person. But she doesn't want a relationship right now, and well, i have to RESPECT that. Sucks, because I do know it's the badass guys who don't respect anything who get all the girls, while the truth-honest and respectful guys who get to be the crying shoulder.

Ravin

 

[Exciteher]

Ravin,
Please do not take my comments below as mean.
I am being very honest with you, and I am going to be direct. I have made all the mistakes you have, please stay open to my comments. Honestly, I hope you get... everything I have to say.

Alright, I am lost with everything people have post ....

So take control, take your power, get clear. Re-read the entire thread until you understand what everyone is saying. Listen. Everyone has tried to help you here.

...I will be drunk, and we all know it. I am turning 20. It's going to happen.

A very powerfull position...not! Wimpy. So you surrender all responsability for your actions..charming. I do appreciate your honesty about this though.

...I doubt I will hit on her.

BZZZZZZZ! Wrong answer. If you respect her, or yourself... DON"T hit on her when you are intoxicated. That is so weak. What is this wimpy "I doubt I will..." crap? See above.

...One thing I don't think people here are understanding.

Poor me thing is wimpy.

...I am VERY UNEXPERIENCED when it comes to physical contact...

WWaaaaaaaa..And you would think wrong. We are very, painfully, aware of how inexperienced you are... so what do you think you need to know to make that first move? We cannot do it for you...just do it!

...so making a move just wouldn't happen.

What YOU do is the ONLY thing you have control over..unless you give your power totally away. See above.

... I am doubting that any person in my shoes would have done anything different.

We were all inexperienced at one time. We all have done what you did. We learned THAT DOES NOT WORK. And then we DID do something DIFFERENT. If we had not, we would all still be inexperienced.

... I am very open about sex in general...

You are open about sex only in the abstract, you are shading your own needs.

..I don't get much physical contact,

I understand that. You need to get a lot more, and from far more women in a far shorter time period. Also consider getting massage, to get you out of your head and into your body. Dance would help too.

...and I am happy that I do get it when I do.

Yes, which is why you act so needy. See above.

The fact is, I am not looking for sex from her.

I don't buy this. BS detector just went off.

...Well it would be nice,

Thank you for your belated, grudging, honesty. What is up with this repeating theme? Don't you see you deserve to want and have it all??? Saying "it would be nice" is wimpy, and disingenuous. Also, it says, "I am not looking for a balanced relationship. You are not getting this!

...but that's not my motive.

BS detector just went on again. It is one of your motives, otherwise you would be happy just being friends with her. You would not be accusing her of leading you on. She is just giving you what you want...friendship with contact, but no sex. Do you see how you cast this as not what your motive is, but what it is not...your motive is not sex? You are putting yourself in a bind!

...She says she doesn't want a relationship right now...

Could be, but she may want friends with benefits... but you say you do not want that. So move on. See above.

1) I need to talk to her about her feelings for me, and is it just a friendship because right now she wants no boyfriend or will it always be like that

She may really like you, love you even, but unless you can make her FEEL like a woman, you will never be boyfriend material. So what is it you really want to talk to her about...do you want to make her want what you want?? You cannot "talk" her in to being your girlfriend.

2) Did I make her feel unwanted when we spent that much time together

I would hesitate ot ask this question of her. It will make her feel bad and puts her in a bad spot. You already have your answer to this anyway, you cuddled, she encouraged you (the poking thing) to go further, you did not, nothing happened, then she told you she was not interested in being your girlfriend. Bingo, answer. If you do ask, and she likes you, she will say "It was fun...or OK"..or something like that. She will not want to hurt your feelings by saying "It started off OK, but then it got boring because you were too shy to make any further moves." That is the best that can happen. Then you will accuse her of playing games. I made this same mistake you did long ago, and I got "What is wrong with you?"she was nonplussed and pissed...lol! Bless her heart!

3) Where does this leave us...

It leaves no "us" except as friends, unless you get out of your own way enough to see if she signals you that she wants to give you a second chance, and you follow through, and you are OK with it not being a heavy thing. You know,sounds like you want to marry her... that would scare the hell out of me if I were her considering your prioritys.

... it basically comes down to needs/wants and emotions between us

Bingo, you want a headtrip, some sort of heavy grand romantic abstraction, and she wants something more tangable, and perhaps less complicated. She is exploring and is on a journey, you want a secure destination where you can give away your power. What you both want is different. Move on.

...I have said over and over how much I regret not doing anything more on her birthday, but thats the past. I need to worry about what is going to happen in the future. I am just playing it all by year right now.

Then why did you say above "The fact is, I am not looking for sex from her."
OK, she is a friend, and by your account will go places with you in the future. Sure, you are not getting sex from her, but you say you do not want that (she must like you to go places with you)... so what is the problem?

I like her alot, I think she is very beautiful and an extremely sexy person.

A few posts up she was playing you. WTF? So if you are not looking for sex from her, why is her being beautiful or sexy important? Is it an ego thing?

But she doesn't want a relationship right now, and well, i have to RESPECT that.

Fine, so why turn yourself inside out about all of this? Respect that, move on!

Sucks, because I do know it's the badass guys who don't respect anything who get all the girls,

Wrong, it is the guys that know and act on what they want, do not give up their power and know how to make woman feel sexy when they are around him that get all the girls.

while the truth-honest and respectful guys who get to be the crying shoulder.

Wrong, it is the guys that so are needy they will sacrifice themselves for the smallest scraps of attention, have poor boundarys, will not admit to their own needs and are so fearful (because they have given their power away) that they would rather be stuck than move on.... that get to be the crying shoulder.

Listen, making that first ever move is hard enough, without putting all that relationship pressure, 'Oh my God, I might lose her" stuff on yourself. If you do not make a move if she is wanting that (and she is...or was!), you are sure lose her! So, what have you got to lose? Zip. Also, get clear about what you want and why you are getting upset. You will not to be able to make any move unless you feel sexy, want to be sexy, want sex with her as much as you want anything else with her, and are OK with that. You obviously are not OK with that yet. Women want you to want all of them, not some Victorian, "age of romance" illusion you have of them. That goes both ways, they will not respond to JUST the etherial part of a man.

 

[Munachi]

First off, the drunk thing. It's my birthday and about 20 of my friends are going to be there. I will be drunk, and we all know it. I am turning 20. It's going to happen. I doubt I will hit on her.

Of course there are ways of drinking and not getting drunk that we all know but I admit that with the practice there are always problems...

One thing I don't think people here are understanding. I am VERY UNEXPERIENCED when it comes to physical contact, so making a move just wouldn't happen. I cannot stress this enough, because I am doubting that any person in my shoes would have done anything different. I am very open about sex in general, but as stated, I don't get much physical contact, and I am happy that I do get it when I do.

You know you remind me a lot of one of my brothers, in a way... ANd of me too in fact. I am often very careful about physical contact, very shy when it comes to that (unless I am drunk, hehe) and it is difficult for me to react to it, in fact... But well, in a way one has to learn to deal with it. I guess quite often both people are shy, too, and nothin happens because each waits for the other one... the "just wouldn't happen" might even keep you from doing something. Like you are saying to yourself: I can't do this because I can't - and because you say so you really can't...

I like her alot, I think she is very beautiful and an extremely sexy person. But she doesn't want a relationship right now, and well, i have to RESPECT that. Sucks, because I do know it's the badass guys who don't respect anything who get all the girls, while the truth-honest and respectful guys who get to be the crying shoulder.

I might be naive but I think that one day it will be the badass guys who suddenly realize they screwed up all the wonderful opportunities they had, while the nice guys, who for a long time had to wait maybe, suddenly find themselves in a respectful and good relationship with someone who appreciates them... the thing though is that while running around being desperate is not a good idea, sitting around and waiting for things to happen by themselves probably doesn't work either...

I think a certain degree of "playing" and being easy going about these things is important as one grows up, like a way of practice, and a way to gain self confidence... But how exactly to do that is hard to say...

 

[dwh2]

Hi dwh2,
loll! No, I'm not offended, and I hope no offense is taken. I do not assume you are a player, I have no way of knowing that!

Haha, actually my mistake. I confused you for ravin. Oops. Never mind.

 

[Ravin the Poet]

I went through the bad week of dealing with this. I have read this thread over, top the bottom. Some get it, some don't. She didn't want sex. How do I know this? Because I know her, and know what she is like. Bring on the BS if you want, but that's fact.

When I made this thread, I didn't want sympathy from anyone. I didn't care, because really I have heard every "aww, you can do better" line in the book. I made this thread to not only encourage myself in what I do but also to find the realization of how this form works.

I first say, how dare some of you question my motives. After doing as some said, and reading over this again, I believe most of the assumption is that, all I want from a relationship is sex. You want to say I am bullshitting this, well I simply say, go fuck yourself. I have stuck to my will, and my morals of wanting my first time to be with someone I care about. As much as I do care about her, it would need to be more then just friends. I am very inexperienced when it comes to women, and as stated before, I am happy when I get very little, since I don't normally get anything. But the way some of you talk on here, I get the impression, you think all I want this girl for is sex. You can honestly think what you want. Because no matter how many times I put MY motives here, no one will believe me.

It's 3 am in the morning...you are nice and comfortable cuddled together and enjoying the company. You are inexperienced and shy. If you can honestly say your first move is to grab a breast then I say MY BS DETECTOR IS GOING OFF. The realization is, you would have done the same thing I did. I have explained my situation, I have given the details of me, and my life that are relative. Yet while I respect the opinions of someone (SweetErika, I have been looking into myself more) others I have no time to waste on.

She may have wanted more. My knowledge is she didn't, but it's in the past now. That was over a month ago, and I don't worry about that. I have started to take note of self-importance, and how much things matter to me, what my motives are in relationships and other self-matters. I still stand by my respect morals, and not seeing women as just a sex object, which by this thread, some want me to do. I didn't fall for this girl because of the physical aspect, I fell for her, because of the fact, she is a great person.

When it comes to the end of things, it boils down to, another women interest lost, and another lead on case. You want to say I miss ques, fine go ahead. Because to me I didn't, and with the admition of leading me on from her, I still think I missed nothing, because she DID ADMIT to it. I will always have unanswered questions, and more or so as of late. But it has come and gone. I have realized my errors, and made mental corrections for next time. That's all I can do. The "you should have done this" time has come and gone, and now it's about "You should do this". That has been my question. I know I missed things I should have done, I know she admited to things, but that's in the past. What matters to me now is finding out truthfully, her feelings and basically her own motives.

If you want to go through this and quote every line I have said and say it's bullshit, I say go ahead. But anything that deals with the past, I really couldn't care about. I hold my mistakes in my heart, as I watch another potenial women slip away because of my own stupidity and inexperience. But that will all come back in time. I move away soon, which means a whole new life for me. As much as this hurts, I will move on, and I will find interest again. I have vowed to myself, not to get caught in getting depressed over this, but to use this as a tool and better myself.

I believe in being honest, and respectful to women. That doesn't get you very far in this world at this age, and I know that. My time will come. I am proud of myself on my counts. I went a year without getting hooked on someone, and when I did, it didn't last long and drag out. I confronted it, and faced it LIKE A MAN. I put my emotions on the line, and as we know, things happen. But every time you get knocked down, you get back up twice as fast and remember how to dodge the next one.

Again I thank those who have taken the time to help, and offer advice. This is an incredible stressful time for me, and I think "finding myself" is the best thing to do, while I pick a career, and make life altering moves. Am I over her? No, I wont be for awhile. But in time, I will. And in time, I will love again. I'm only 19, turning 20. One thing I realized...there is no rush.


Ravin

 

[SweetErika]

Ravin, I appreciate your respect, and sincerely wish the best for you. I'm taking time to write this when I feel crappy because I was so struck by what others have written. Please read this with an open mind and heart because it WILL help.

I hope you re-read this thread very, very carefully and EVERYTHING Exciteher said sinks in. He is EXACTLY right, and the only way you're going to change your future into what you want is to do what he says. Exciteher has pointed out a bunch of things about me that I didn't even realize consciously ...he knows what he's talking about.

This may also be hard to hear, but you come across as a victim. That's so not attractive. You have to take control and be positive to get what you want. If you make some alterations to how you think and act (no, I'm not talking about changing who you are...I'm talking about growing and improving as mature adults do), you WILL get what you want.

You might act differently or hide the victim part when you're with others...I'm sure you do a good job of it. However, it always comes out one way or another...often I've found it's that underlying current that makes me not want to get too heavily involved with someone, or go beyond a casual relationship.

My husband was pretty inexperienced when we met. He is the nicest guy you could ever know...completely opposite from the "Player." I told him I just wanted to be friends, but one night I slept in his room (we were drinking with friends, and he put me in the other bed, refusing to touch me because he's such a nice guy), and in the morning I crawled into bed with him and we snuggled. He kissed me. He made me feel good, beautiful, and wanted by making that move so gently. Clearly, I responded very well, though we never went beyond kissing that time. Could I have rejected him? Sure, but he gave me that chance, and it worked out very well for him...he never would have known if he hadn't tried.

You seem afraid to try, Ravin, and that fear is crippling you and keeping you away from what you want. Look inside yourself again and challenge that fear. It's something all of us have, but taking chances and facing fear is how we grow and get what we want. You have to do it, or you'll be 29, 39, 49 and just as inexperienced and upset, though by then you'll probably hate women.

No, you should not take another break from women...there's no reason to except maybe staying inside your little bubble of comfort for awhile longer, which will just make you mad at yourself when you're done. Don't justify that to yourself...it's the excuse of a weak guy who's never going to be successful in love, not the strong guy inside of you who is trying new things and learning how to be successful.

As for the current girl, either make a move next time you're close, or move on and do differently next time. Under no circumstances should you drink to excess or talk to her about how she feels about you. You'll lose her friendship if you talk to her like that because she'll be so uncomfortable around you, she'll just want to stay away. Making a move when you're physically close and not drinking will likely get you results. Most importantly, it's different from what you have been doing and will help you get out of that cycle and learn and grow.

You've got an incredible opportunity to start a new chapter of your life, as you said with a career and all. Take this chance to start with a fresh mindset and try new things with women as well. Your previous attempts haven't worked well, but the ones in the future will if you change your thinking and actions. I promise.

 

[Exciteher]

Ravin,
I applaud your desire to to be honest, respectful and loving and moral. There is nothing wrong with your idealism, romanticism and passion here, it is a good thing. I am suggesting two more things you may benifit from, balance and self acceptance. You are just finding yourself, learning about life, and it can be a difficult time. As I said, we have all been there.

No one has said ALL you want is sex, I know that is not ALL you want.

There is a BIG difference between seeing women as "sex objects" and validating their sexuality, and also validation your own sexuality.

Also, it is not a sin to have sexual feelings about a woman. And it is not a sin to "own" those feeling. Do you know what I mean when I say "own" a feeling?

Why is it important to "own" your feelings? Because it is the only way to be clear. It is the only way to be honest with yourself. One of the hardest things in life for anyone is to be honest with themselves.

There is a difference between HAVING feelings and ACTING on them. if you have these feeings, or any feeling, the choice of how to act on those feelings are always yours alone. Taking no action is a valid choice if taking action would violate some personal ethics or morals.

No where did I say the first thing you should do is grab her breast.

I did suggest that, after 10 hours of cuddling and any touching that went on during that period, something like that would have been the next step.

I went line by line through your own comments, attempting to show to you where you were being inconsistant, and contradictory. I was not questioning your motives, I was showing you where YOUR own STATEMENTS about your motives were in conflict, or where your ACTIONS were in conflict with your stated motives, and in some cases ideals.

And frankly, from looking at your at your statements and discriptions of your actions it appears to me that you believe, being "honest and respectful" to women means you must minimize, disown or divorce yourself from your sexual feelings toward women.

I think this is a big source of your confusion. It is normal, this a common trouble young men have at your age.

Ravin, you said you read this thread top to bottom, and that you understood some of what other people were saying. What is it that you learned?

Also, you say there are things people said that you do not understand? What is it you do not understand?

And yes, you have plenty of time, your whole life ahead of yourself.
Have you read any DH Lawrence, or J.D. Salinger, etc? I would suggest 'Catcher in the Rye' by Salinger... then try "Women in Love" by Lawrence. Also "Delta of Venus" by Anais Nin

 

[Ravin the Poet]

In MY WORLD, I don't want to accept the things people say I guess. Hearing the turth hurts like a bitch, and causes lash outs. I agree with most of what Exciteher said, just not the way he said it. To me, it comes off as a offensive, like I am some whiney little bitch. That's what pissed me off.

I think we have taken the drinking thing a little to far. My birthday I am going to have fun. Dance, do what ever. I have no intentions what so ever of even trying to pick her up. Well actually, on July 9th, we are going out for my birthday, on my ACTUAL birthday, the 12th, I hope to spend it with her. No drinking (i hate it anyway) and just us.

I do have one MAJOR question. And it seems repetative. I know what you people say is right, and I need to do something. So what do you suggest I do? I am inexperienced, have never kissed anyone, and really have no idea what to do, when to do it. I know the feeling has been there, I have wanted to kiss her so much, but always shyed away. What do you all suggest I do when I see her? To be honest, I am SICK of talking, and want actions to speak louder then words.

Ravin

 

[dwh2]

Ravin,

You do need to relax a bit. We're all on your side. Men and women alike in this thread. You're VERY young. Where you are seems to be a huge deal to you today, but trust me, this will pass and one day you'll barely remember feeling this way.

I lost my virginity at 21. A long time ago

Experience is a great teacher.

You want a relationship. And sex is part of it. That doesn't mean that's all you want.

 

[dwh2]

I do have one MAJOR question. And it seems repetative. I know what you people say is right, and I need to do something. So what do you suggest I do? I am inexperienced, have never kissed anyone, and really have no idea what to do, when to do it. I know the feeling has been there, I have wanted to kiss her so much, but always shyed away. What do you all suggest I do when I see her? To be honest, I am SICK of talking, and want actions to speak louder then words.

Ravin

Oh, I thought with that other girl you were making out. Guess I misunderstood. It's hard to tell you how because it all depends on the situation. Here's what I found easiest when I was learning and hadn't yet kissed. Ask a girl on a date. End of date, give her a peck on the cheek. Second date, another peck. Unless she's giving you lots of signals, then you can try mouth. Third date, if you made it that far, you know for sure she is interested in you. When you say goodnight, go for a full kiss. Take it from there depending on her response. But don't expect it to last that long. You basically want to view it that you are constantly testing the line with her. Touch the line. Go a bit over. If she pulls back, you pull back.

Other situations, before you start kissing you need some closeness. In subtle ways, touch her. (Especially if she touches you. Depends on the girl, but her touching you makes it easier. I just mean touches your elbow while talking etc..) If the girl likes you, at some point hold her hand. Take it from there.

There can always be awkward moments as you get closer, but don't dwell on those. EVERYONE experiences it so you won't be judged on it.

 

[sexualgentleman]

I have been reading this thread as a father of two older children, I can feel for Raven. I do beleive though a little confused he is on the right track.

I think a lot of the problem that affects the younger members of these boards is that many of the memebers that discuss sex so openly and without inhibitions are (parden me) older and have been passed where Raven is now. The things that are important to us now, are not what they were in younger years. We have made love to that someone special. We experienced something much warmer and meanigful than just getting my rocks off! I have plenty of experience, and yet at the same time why should I assume that a woman wants to sleep with me?

If it is someone that I care a great deal about, if it reaches that point, I will tell her that just becuase we sleep together, doesn't mean we have to make love. Yes, I said make love. That Raven is where you are. At the point where you are not just going to get your rocks off, but becuase you have an emotional and physical desire to be with someone. When you are near her you feel that special feeling! Like and electric current running through your body. It will be special when you have the right one. Don't doubt yourself! If you like yourself enough, so will she. With the few women I have given the choice to sleep or make love, becuase of how we felt about each other, it came naturally, and that made all the difference.

Don't force it! It will come soon enough, and when you do feel as I read you do, it will be special!