How to reconcile...

[Chiara_searches]

Are there any vegetarians here? I find I'm having a growing fascination with the idea of certain leather things. But I'm struggling with reconciling my vegetarian ideals with the thought of owning leather. Any suggestions?

 

[Mac98]

There's always fake leather that isn't made from any animal... but the quality is never the same...

 

[Nasty_Deeds]

Are there any vegetarians here? I find I'm having a growing fascination with the idea of certain leather things. But I'm struggling with reconciling my vegetarian ideals with the thought of owning leather. Any suggestions?

It depends on why you are vegetarian. If you are vegetarian because you believe it is a more healthy diet, then there is nothing to reconcile; however, if you are vegetarian because you believe it is wrong to kill animals, then I don’t think you can.

Being vegetarian for good health is one thing, but being vegetarian as a moral value is quite another. If this is a moral conflict, then you have to ask yourself: “which is more important, my core moral values, or my ephemeral desires”?

 

[satindesire]

It depends on why you are vegetarian. If you are vegetarian because you believe it is a more healthy diet, then there is nothing to reconcile; however, if you are vegetarian because you believe it is wrong to kill animals, then I don’t think you can.

Being vegetarian for good health is one thing, but being vegetarian as a moral value is quite another. If this is a moral conflict, then you have to ask yourself: “which is more important, my core moral values, or my ephemeral desires”?

Now, THAT is an awesome post.

See? It's not that hard to be a productive and useful member of this forum!

 

[bailadora]

Now, THAT is an awesome post.

See? It's not that hard to be a productive and useful member of this forum!

My first thought was: Who is this person? And what has he done with Nasty Deeds?

But yeah - that pretty much sums it up.

 

[SweetErika]

You could figure that the cow has already been killed for the meat, so you're not doing harm or creating demand by using a byproduct like leather.

Plus, you're probably using the leather quite conservatively (buying a few toys or garments that will last you years or decades vs.putting demand on the system by eating a lot of beef), and it's more ecofriendly than most man-made materials.

I don't eat beef, but I don't feel bad about using leather for the reasons above. My leather items last a really long time, so purchases are very few and far between. And there's no reasonable equivalent to a suede flogger or leather harness.

Now if the animal had been killed primarily for the hide and/or the rest of it was going to waste, I'd pass.

 

[Chiara_searches]

It depends on why you are vegetarian. If you are vegetarian because you believe it is a more healthy diet, then there is nothing to reconcile; however, if you are vegetarian because you believe it is wrong to kill animals, then I don’t think you can.

Being vegetarian for good health is one thing, but being vegetarian as a moral value is quite another. If this is a moral conflict, then you have to ask yourself: “which is more important, my core moral values, or my ephemeral desires”?

I started being a vegetarian for health reasons, noticing how blah I felt when I ate meat, especially hamburgers. But honestly it is also consistent with my environmental concerns. Hence the inability to get comfortable on my own all the while wanting to try out some of the things that interest me.

You could figure that the cow has already been killed for the meat, so you're not doing harm or creating demand by using a byproduct like leather.

Plus, you're probably using the leather quite conservatively (buying a few toys or garments that will last you years or decades vs.putting demand on the system by eating a lot of beef), and it's more ecofriendly than most man-made materials.

I don't eat beef, but I don't feel bad about using leather for the reasons above. My leather items last a really long time, so purchases are very few and far between. And there's no reasonable equivalent to a suede flogger or leather harness.

Now if the animal had been killed primarily for the hide and/or the rest of it was going to waste, I'd pass.

I think I'm going to end up applying this analysis. Thank you Sweet Erika.

How about I just post when I buy something leather and everyone on Lit can run out and eat meat for me so I don't feel so bad? Actually, I'm stealing this idea from a friend who's offered to do the same...and while I am giggling at actually encouraging people to eat meat, I am also self-aware enough to hope the scales of my interests are balanced some how. Still, if anyone has any suggestions on alternatives to leather toys, I'm all ears...or in this environment, all eyes.

 

[SweetErika]

I think I'm going to end up applying this analysis. Thank you Sweet Erika.

How about I just post when I buy something leather and everyone on Lit can run out and eat meat for me so I don't feel so bad? Actually, I'm stealing this idea from a friend who's offered to do the same...and while I am giggling at actually encouraging people to eat meat, I am also self-aware enough to hope the scales of my interests are balanced some how. Still, if anyone has any suggestions on alternatives to leather toys, I'm all ears...or in this environment, all eyes.

You're welcome.

Never fear, there's already plenty of demand for beef without adding to it. And cows are a terrible food source, environmentally speaking.

What kind of toys are you looking for? You can re-purpose a lot of things you already have around if you're concerned about the environment. I've made rattan canes with instructions I found here. Actually, there are a ton of DIY toy suggestions in the BDSM forum, as well as on sites like the Frugal Domme. You could make a hemp or rope flogger, but there's really no substitute for the smell and feel of leather when it comes to floggers and crops, IMO.

 

[sillypanda]

I'm a long time vegetarian, and one time vegan.

When I was vegan, I didn't buy anything leather. Now that I no longer am, I am sorry to say that I don't give it much thought. However, I restrict my purchases to small leather goods (handbags, belts and shoes), and only quality timeless pieces that are meant to last for quite a long time (like SweetErika said).

When I want to buy something fun and trendy, I go the natural route. When I'm looking for career wear / designer goods, I may go leather and tend to do so without guilt. However, I draw the line at articles of clothing, such as jackets and skirts. It's a small distinction and probably doesn't make sense to anyone else, but it works for me.

I have a few environmental friends who are almost self-flagellates - they beat themselves up over every mile they drive rather than bike, and every bit of refuse they don't recycle. While I admire their dedication, I try to remind them of the good they're doing - all the other miles they bike rather than drive, and all the items the _do_ recycle - so maybe I'm the same way with myself and leather. Sure it would be better if I didn't buy any, but because I buy very little I don't beat myself up about it.

Does that make me a hypocrite? Probably! I accept that about myself as well.

 

[Nasty_Deeds]

Everyone has to make their own moral decisions: for there is no one right way or wrong way for everyone to live.

However there is something that has to be considered. If you buy a single animal product that resulted from the death of that animal, you increase the market for killing animals by just that much. Will buying a single leather item prevent the killing of an animal? Certainly not! But the point is not, “are you preventing the death of an animal”, the point is, “who you are as a person”.

We each have our own moral values by which we live, and our biggest sin is betraying ourselves.

 

[Dribble]

http://www.flogger.com/products/products.htm

some things demand leather

 

[SweetErika]

There could be another happy medium if you have the funds: buying your leather/goods from reliable sources, like hunters that use every part of the animal and farmers who treat their animals well. It'll likely be more expensive, but maybe it's a choice you'll feel better about in the end.

 

[Texguy84]

You might also consider some other alternatives to leather depending on what you are looking at. They won't be the same, but maybe you can direct your kinks in another direction. I understand that you can use a frayed hemp rope as a whip or a crop? Are there downsides to this?

I'm also trying to picture some kind of sexy dominatrix outfit made from plant or synthetic fabric, could be fun, and it would probably breath a bit better than leather once you got all sweaty.

Now me, I don't have a personal problem with leather (I've got two leather jackets, three pairs of leather boots, a leather belt, one of my pocket knives used to be a leatherman, but that's not really the same thing...), but hey, I figure I'd throw some ideas your way to help you have some options.

 

[sillypanda]

They don't make toys, but are Matt & Nat still around?

I used to love their stuff back in my vegan days, and still have several pieces - very high quality non-leather goods, cute and functional. They are/were a Canadian company that specialized in handbags, laptop cases, etc. Might be worth a peek if you're curious about leather alternatives!

Also, all of Stella McCartney's stuff is vegan / cruelty-free.

Happy shopping! ^^

 

[fire_breeze]

They don't make toys, but are Matt & Nat still around?

I used to love their stuff back in my vegan days, and still have several pieces - very high quality non-leather goods, cute and functional. They are/were a Canadian company that specialized in handbags, laptop cases, etc. Might be worth a peek if you're curious about leather alternatives!

Also, all of Stella McCartney's stuff is vegan / cruelty-free.

Happy shopping! ^^

http://www.mattandnat.com/

 

[fire_breeze]

I'd like to echo to let your instinct guide you on this one.

Also, you mentioned that you are a vegetarian for health and environmental reasons. One way to look at it is to realise how much pollution fake leather and fur throws into our atmosphere. Furthermore, as SweetE mentioned, when you buy quality leather goods, you are investing in the long run because they last, and therefore becomes cheaper than having to constantly replace something of a lesser quality.

In my opinion, locally and ethnic made goods makes use of animals that are raised in a healthy environment and where most, if not all, parts are used, cutting down on waste.

 

[thirty]

You could figure that the cow has already been killed for the meat, so you're not doing harm or creating demand by using a byproduct like leather.

Plus, you're probably using the leather quite conservatively (buying a few toys or garments that will last you years or decades vs.putting demand on the system by eating a lot of beef), and it's more ecofriendly than most man-made materials.

I don't eat beef, but I don't feel bad about using leather for the reasons above. My leather items last a really long time, so purchases are very few and far between. And there's no reasonable equivalent to a suede flogger or leather harness.

Now if the animal had been killed primarily for the hide and/or the rest of it was going to waste, I'd pass.

I'm on your side.

Life is complicated, sometimes there are just no standards, I even feel guilty for being a human: isn't Earth a percent planet without humans?

But, yeah, I have to put that aside and try not to look at it that way.

 

[sillypanda]

I'm on your side.

Life is complicated, sometimes there are just no standards, I even feel guilty for being a human: isn't Earth a percent planet without humans?

But, yeah, I have to put that aside and try not to look at it that way.

My first philosophy professor talked about a group of Buddhists who believed in doing no harm to such an extent that they wouldn't take a step for fear they would crush something living under foot.

Once they formed their religious tenets, they decided the only just thing they could do was lie down and die.

Man, that still messes me up in the head. Not only because it's so sad, but also because I can kind of see the logic they used. :/

 

[thirty]

My first philosophy professor talked about a group of Buddhists who believed in doing no harm to such an extent that they wouldn't take a step for fear they would crush something living under foot.

Once they formed their religious tenets, they decided the only just thing they could do was lie down and die.

Man, that still messes me up in the head. Not only because it's so sad, but also because I can kind of see the logic they used. :/

The first time I went to a local open air market to buy live chicken, when I picked one, the vendor drugged it out and threw it to a machine for killing chickens, with just few seconds, the live chicken became a dead naked chicken, I felt so bad about it, I thought my decision actually led to its immediate death.

I bought live chickens more frequently after that, guess what? I felt less and less guility about it.

 

[littlebabyclit]

Regarding buying leather versus pleather, or not buying any leather at all... I think it can come down to wants versus needs and also how you feel about buying animal products in general. I try to stay away from buying as much animal-based product as I can. No one can be perfect with that, in a world where most companies incorporate animal ingredients into products you would never even suspect. However, I try to minimize, as much as one can, contributing to the use and/or deaths of animals when there are alternative products to choose. I also try to think whether I really need something, or if it's a want which can be fulfilled another way. (I also think this way when it comes to buying non-USA produced products.) Leather is not a necessity when there are alternatives. Tanning leather is just as much a biohazardous process chemically as it has been suggested above that producing pleather is.

 

[Chiara_searches]

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to express their ideas and suggestions. I'll have to mull this over further and I'll let you know if I ever really come up with a balanced solution.