How to incorporate third person scenes into a first person story

[CiaoSteve]

So, I have a serious question based upon feedback on my latest story. The feedback was as follows:

As mentioned, the point of view changes were a flaw and I would suggest a major flaw at that. At the end of chapter four were two short paragraphs with third person narration after a full chapter of first person. Completely discombobulating.

What I am trying to do is tell the story (26k words long) primarily from the viewpoint of the one of the main characters, but there is a point in the tale where I want to show the feelings of the other character, at a time when the two are not together. Hence I switched to third person for those couple of paragraphs. Obviously this didn't work as a couple of readers commented, so my question to you wonderful scribes is how would you include a third person scene into a story written primarily as first person? Or, is this a big no no and I should have followed the remaining advice of the commenter:

To make life easier as a writer, make it all third person omnipotent, that is, you the storyteller know all the thoughts of every character. Writing in first person requires concentration to avoid lapses such as you had.

That said, if there are only a couple of such lapses in over 7 pages of Lit content, then I'll mark this down as not being too bad. Do feel free to disagree though.

 

[Auden James]

Did you switch the point of view in the same scene?

 

[CiaoSteve]

Nearly forgot... ok, so actually I did forget... here is the offending text at the end of Chapter 4

As we left the library, I did wonder to myself. I hadn't been that obvious, had I? It wasn't like I had a thing for Natalia. She was just so... well... I hadn't met anybody before who could go from being so charming, so sensitive, all the way to being that powerful and dominant. Wasn't it only normal that she would grab my attention? It's not like it meant anything.

Inside I knew. It was only a matter of time before I found my own knight in shining armour, the one I would let carry me off on the back of his mighty steed... only a matter of time before I had a Rich to call my own.

There was a huge smile on Natalia's face, as she finished off returning books to the shelves. Oh yes, for sure she had noticed the way her would-be lover was watching her. It seemed like Anna couldn't take her eyes off Natalia.

Still though, things couldn't be rushed. Anna would need to work out what she wanted for herself. The signs were promising, but Natalia knew better than to press for an answer.

and here is the link to the story...

https://www.literotica.com/s/anna-and-the-librarian

Is it a case of naming the third person explicitly on each line instead of using "she"?

 

[Auden James]

Er, it looks like you indeed switched the point of view in the same scene. Well, to use your own words, that's simply a "no no."

If you wanted to change the point of view, there would need to be a logical break for it to seem even remotely "natural;" though I doubt that switching from a first-person to a third-person perspective will seem natural to most readers on here even if there was a logical break to facilitate it.

Or do you aim at writing avantgarde fiction? The audience for that might be more willing to accept unmotivated point of view switches . . .

 

[CiaoSteve]

I'm going to have to watch for this one then... or maybe go back to third person which I used to write more often

 

[Auden James]

You could also combine several different first-person narrators. Though, again, there should always be a logicial break when switching from one to the other . . .

 

[ElectricBlue]

how would you include a third person scene into a story written primarily as first person? Or, is this a big no no and I should have followed the remaining advice of the commenter:

I wouldn't.

I've done it once, mainly because I got momentarily restricted by my first person pov. It jars the reader out of the story in a, " Wait, what?" moment. I wouldn't do it again - it's a writer's mistake, I think.

 

[CiaoSteve]

That's exactly the problem I had... being restricted in first person and wanting to add the feelings of the second character when the two of them were not together. My next story is written in third person, so I guess the issue won't come up. Thanks both for your words of wisdom.

 

[NotWise]

You actually are breaking the scene before the 1st person and 3rd person sections. Your 1st person character is leaving the library, then when you switch to third person you're back in the library again. I found that more confusing than the change in the voice.

That change would have been clearer if you'd done a scene break at that point ("~~~" or whatever you like to use). You'd end up with a little fragment of 3rd-person narration, but it might be less confusing.

It's easy to put 1st-person segments into a 3rd-person narration, because dialogue is usually 1st person. Doing it the other way is a challenge I'm not sure I'd take on.

 

[Lifestyle66]

I use scene breaks in my mostly first-person stories, when I need to switch to a third person POV for better defining the other character. I then separate the scenes with three asterisks centered on the page to provide a visual cue that things are changing.

But I have sometimes switched from my first-person narration when the husband & wife couple is closely bound in a nearby scene. In that case, I might have the first-person husband say: "I didn't see what my wife was doing in the kitchen when she went to refill her wine glass. But she told me later." Then I'll tag the next paragraph with a header "Kitchen" before switching to third person. It makes the next scene switch back to first person easier, with the husband saying "When I walked into the kitchen, I saw my wife..."

 

[8letters]

I think you need to be very clear when you're changing from first-person to third-person that that change has happen.

I have a story where I do that. All the story up to this point is narrated by Thomas. Then I go third person limited. Here's how I did it:

I didn't see what there was to be angry about. Disappointed, yes. But Rebecca had been honest with me, had told me that she didn't love me. Who was I to say that she had to stay with me rather than her true love?

* * * *

Once Thomas and Caitlin left, Rebecca walked to the trash can and threw her ice cream away.

I'm so stupid. So blazingly stupid.

She waited a few moments for Thomas and Caitlin to be out of sight, then left the shop and stopped. Jacob would be expecting her soon at the pool. She didn't feel like talking to Jacob. Or talking to anyone. She decided to go to the cabin and do some early packing.

I changed the scene and made it clear up front that Rebecca was now the one the story was following, not Thomas.

 

[AlinaX]

The fact that it's just a couple of paragraphs without any break is what hurts it. If you're going to switch PoV, make it a definite break, and then invest in the new PoV.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I see it a little differently. Each section taken separately could be viewed as first person.

Here you are in the first person, sharing Anna's thoughts:
As we left the library, I did wonder to myself. I hadn't been that obvious, had I? It wasn't like I had a thing for Natalia. She was just so... well... I hadn't met anybody before who could go from being so charming, so sensitive, all the way to being that powerful and dominant. Wasn't it only normal that she would grab my attention? It's not like it meant anything.

Inside I knew. It was only a matter of time before I found my own knight in shining armour, the one I would let carry me off on the back of his mighty steed... only a matter of time before I had a Rich to call my own.

Here it seems like you are also in the first person, sharing Natalia's thoughts:
There was a huge smile on Natalia's face, as she finished off returning books to the shelves. Oh yes, for sure she had noticed the way her would-be lover was watching her. It seemed like Anna couldn't take her eyes off Natalia.

Still though, things couldn't be rushed. Anna would need to work out what she wanted for herself. The signs were promising, but Natalia knew better than to press for an answer.

I think the key is making it clear that these are the individual's thoughts and not narrative. You need a section break indication (~~~ or *** or similar) and I think readers would not have an issue with it.

 

[Lifestyle66]

I see it a little differently. Each section taken separately could be viewed as first person.

Here you are in the first person, sharing Anna's thoughts:
As we left the library, I did wonder to myself. I hadn't been that obvious, had I? It wasn't like I had a thing for Natalia. She was just so... well... I hadn't met anybody before who could go from being so charming, so sensitive, all the way to being that powerful and dominant. Wasn't it only normal that she would grab my attention? It's not like it meant anything.

Inside I knew. It was only a matter of time before I found my own knight in shining armour, the one I would let carry me off on the back of his mighty steed... only a matter of time before I had a Rich to call my own.

Here it seems like you are also in the first person, sharing Natalia's thoughts:
There was a huge smile on Natalia's face, as she finished off returning books to the shelves. Oh yes, for sure she had noticed the way her would-be lover was watching her. It seemed like Anna couldn't take her eyes off Natalia.

Still though, things couldn't be rushed. Anna would need to work out what she wanted for herself. The signs were promising, but Natalia knew better than to press for an answer.

I think the key is making it clear that these are the individual's thoughts and not narrative. You need a section break indication (~~~ or *** or similar) and I think readers would not have an issue with it.

I think it's a fine line with the first-person appearing to relate the thoughts of another.

Instead of saying "It seemed like Anna couldn't take her eyes off Natalia." It might clearly be first-person saying: "I noticed Anna never took her eyes off Natalia." Or if the "I" is Anna, she could just say "I couldn't take my eyes off..."

Or "Natalia knew better than to press for an answer." could be "I knew Natalia wouldn't press for an answer."

 

[Kumquatqueen]

It's not clear if 'I' is Natalia in that snippet.

It's only the last para which seems at odds with what's come before, and there doesn't seem to be any reason why that couldn't be first person as well.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't ever mix third person and first person. I think it's confusing, jarring, and also implausible. It doesn't make any logical sense to me that one minute we're getting the story told from one person, and then the very next it's being by a third person omniscient narrator who can peer into another character's head.

If I want to get into the head of more than one character, I tell the story in third person.

At a bare minimum, you need to separate these into separate sections, separated by asterisks, or numbers, or something else. It's too confusing, as is.

 

[AlexBailey]

How about if you handle it differently altogether?

Your main character could watch Natalia through a window and observe her seeming distracted, smiling, maybe blushing a little. The MC could muse on what Natalia was thinking…

Maybe they could catch eyes through the window then get incredibly self conscious.

 

[Voboy]

I'm generally not in favor of switching perspectives like that. There are pros and cons to FP and TP that are well-known, and I believe a good writer can make either one of them work. I think it's "cheating" to switch like that, and if I were a reader I'd have just stopped, moved on to another story, and forgotten all about you.

If you must switch, you owe it to your readers to signpost it somehow. But I still think it's "cheating."

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm generally not in favor of switching perspectives like that. There are pros and cons to FP and TP that are well-known, and I believe a good writer can make either one of them work. I think it's "cheating" to switch like that, and if I were a reader I'd have just stopped, moved on to another story, and forgotten all about you.

If you must switch, you owe it to your readers to signpost it somehow. But I still think it's "cheating."

I think so too, in most cases. The rare author can pull it off. Dickens alternated third person and first person in Bleak House, and I still wonder why. I'm not sure it was the right choice. Maybe the idea is that you are giving two very different perspectives on a story. But if you do that, you can't spend most of the time in first person and then just dip randomly into third person. It completely upsets the narrative apple cart.

 

[Trionyx]

I don't ever mix third person and first person. I think it's confusing, jarring, and also implausible. It doesn't make any logical sense to me that one minute we're getting the story told from one person, and then the very next it's being by a third person omniscient narrator who can peer into another character's head.

If I want to get into the head of more than one character, I tell the story in third person.

At a bare minimum, you need to separate these into separate sections, separated by asterisks, or numbers, or something else. It's too confusing, as is.

I agree 100%. Mixing first and third person in one story is confusing. Pick either one and stick with it. I also agree with the comment you quoted about writing in the third person omnipotent.
Remember, when writing in third person you can decide which of the character‘s thoughts you will portray. In some stories I will narrate the thoughts of main protagonist but not everyone’s thoughts. This would not have worked in your story since you wanted both characters’ thoughts depicted at times.

 

[GrushaVashnadze]

Transitioning from one person to another, or even one tense to another, can be done very successfully if it is clearly sign-posted, and if it has a clear narrative motivation or purpose. Here's an example which the readers seemed to appreciate:

Metamorphoses

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I played around with first/third a bit in my most recent story (Educating Laura) and eventually kept most of it in first person (Laura) but had a few bits where she was off-scene and I switched to third for other characters to have conversations. I only did it three times, in sections marked off as separate, and made it quickly clear who was speaking. Third worked better than first because if it was first then I'd need a reason not to be in that head during the rest of the story, at which point you might as well cast the whole thing into third.

I think it worked OK (readers didn't seem to object: red Hs on 4 of 5 chapters and plenty of other stuff they'd object to first), though there was probably a more elegant way to do it.

I toyed with potentially more elegant solutions but decided I wasn't paid enough to search for them and posted the story anyway.

 

[SimonDoom]

Transitioning from one person to another, or even one tense to another, can be done very successfully if it is clearly sign-posted, and if it has a clear narrative motivation or purpose. Here's an example which the readers seemed to appreciate:

Metamorphoses

I just read your story, and I agree: this is a rare example of the POV switch working, because the third person section (in past tense) is clearly separated and it's a dream/sci fi sequence sandwiched between two present tense, first-person sections that narrate waking segments (although the whole thing has a dream-like, fantasy feel). What makes it work is not just the clear demarcation of the sections but the setup of the story: it's plausible that one could see oneself in a dream from a third-person perspective.

 

[CiaoSteve]

Thank you all for so many considered replies. I will look at the section breaks to make it clearer. The reason for first person is that the majority of the story is really around one character, but I did want to also pick out the thoughts of the love interest. Originally I had started to write this one as third person and maybe I should have stuck to my guns. I'm really going to think about it in the future... and my next tale is already third person and staying as such. Really do appreciate the time and input from you all.

 

[GrushaVashnadze]

I just read your story, and I agree: this is a rare example of the POV switch working, because the third person section (in past tense) is clearly separated and it's a dream/sci fi sequence sandwiched between two present tense, first-person sections that narrate waking segments (although the whole thing has a dream-like, fantasy feel). What makes it work is not just the clear demarcation of the sections but the setup of the story: it's plausible that one could see oneself in a dream from a third-person perspective.

Thanks so much for reading, Simon!
Best,
Grusha