How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[ishtat]

It looks like there are 6 tapes about a half hour long. Is that right? I'll look at them . Don't know how long it will take but I will let you know what I think. What did you find beneficial?

They are highly varied opinions by very different and intelligent people. I was not looking for a particular benefit but rather a better understanding of how others think/believe. I think that if one sets out with a mindset of deciding to agree or disagree with any particular one, it tends to close the mind to considering the full depth of their thinking.

Personally I found Weinberg the most interesting.

The first thing that one can understand is that whether you agree with these people or not, they are clearly not heathens or devils in disguise, but profoundly moral individuals with exceptionally well thought out opinions. That in itself can be helpful because it teaches us not to disparage a different belief system merely because it is "other" and unfamiliar.

Mebbe Jonathon Miller could return and enlighten us - after all he died six months ago.

 

[ishtat]

I just gave the definition of seed in the dictionary but this is interesting:

In the Hebrew language the word seed (zera) doesn’t just describe a part of a plant. A seed is anything that produces new life, so zera (seeds) also refers to human offspring or descendants:

The fact that seed means offspring of both plant and human, makes it ripe (pardon the pun) for metaphor.

Source: https://hebrewwordlessons.com/2019/08/04/zera-a-seed-in-the-garden/

My dislike of the word seed in this context is that in Biblical times a man's sperm/semen was believed to be the only source of life. A woman was merely the growing medium, the soil in which life grew. The woman's role was of secondary importance: so metaphor or not I think that it is a poor choice.

 

[phrodeau]

My dislike of the word seed in this context is that in Biblical times a man's sperm/semen was believed to be the only source of life. A woman was merely the growing medium, the soil in which life grew. The woman's role was of secondary importance: so metaphor or not I think that it is a poor choice.

Yes, the Bible has that very important fact wrong. And in the New Testament Paul makes special rules for women, for that reason.

 

[Tryharder62]

They are highly varied opinions by very different and intelligent people. I was not looking for a particular benefit but rather a better understanding of how others think/believe. I think that if one sets out with a mindset of deciding to agree or disagree with any particular one, it tends to close the mind to considering the full depth of their thinking.

Personally I found Weinberg the most interesting.

The first thing that one can understand is that whether you agree with these people or not, they are clearly not heathens or devils in disguise, but profoundly moral individuals with exceptionally well thought out opinions. That in itself can be helpful because it teaches us not to disparage a different belief system merely because it is "other" and unfamiliar.

Mebbe Jonathon Miller could return and enlighten us - after all he died six months ago.

I can respect this. I admit that it is hard, even though I want to be totally open, not to let some of my beliefs become a filter. Does that ever happen to you when you observe/discuss beliefs that aren't your own?

Well said on what I put in bold. I tend to want to discuss things so that I can continue to learn about all beliefs and also discuss mine. I realize it might be annoying. I like to find out how people got to the conclusions they live by. Even if someone really disagrees with me I think it stretches my mind to see how they came to their conclusion and if it is something I want to to believe.

I'll listen to Jonathon Miller next.

 

[Tryharder62]

My dislike of the word seed in this context is that in Biblical times a man's sperm/semen was believed to be the only source of life. A woman was merely the growing medium, the soil in which life grew. The woman's role was of secondary importance: so metaphor or not I think that it is a poor choice.

The bible goes to great length to teach that God is the source of all life. Men and women have different roles but that doesn't mean that one is more important than the other. Without either one of them there would not be life.

Yes, the Bible has that very important fact wrong. And in the New Testament Paul makes special rules for women, for that reason.

If women were of secondary importance why would the first evangelists after Jesus' resurrection be women? Why would an important message be given to a women at the well. On and on................

What often happens is that the verses about women are looked at without the verses about the men. Like 1Timothy 2:8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. Why this rule? Well the men were arguing in the streets about who was right and wrong and often spreading false doctrine. Basically instead of doing that Paul wanted them to stop and pray and get rid of the anger and disputing.

On to 1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. So what was happening? Women were joining in the fight and bringing it into the church causing more anger and dispute often to the detriment of their husband. A man and a wife are suppose to be one flesh. One is not better than the other neither should one put the other down. So Paul wants women to be quiet if that is what they are doing.

Very similar things he asks men and women to do. I don't think that it means that women have to be quiet all the time in church as much as I don't think that men are suppose to always pray. But if found in these situations it is often good to take pause before matters get worse.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:26-28). There is no sexism at the cross.

 

[colddiesel]

Yes, the Bible has that very important fact wrong. And in the New Testament Paul makes special rules for women, for that reason.

Probably he did not. In 4 different books Prisca(Priscilla) and Aquilla are mentioned as important preachers and Paul treated them as equals - in Romans 16/3 for example. It was in the later books that writers brought up in Roman social traditions cast women in an inferior role. Paul did not write those later books, there are far too many contradictions between the earlier Paul, and the later would be imitators of Paul. His successors commandeered Paul's name to give their opinions of women's inferior status as leaders and preachers. Ironic that both Catholics and Evangelical Protestants seized on those unchristian ideas to continue their oppression of women. Episcopalians and traditional Methodists take a more sympathetic view of women's role in the early church.

The Bible is definitely not God's word, it is the word of dozens of different men and women cobbled together over centuries, drawing inspiration from Summerian, Akkadian, Canaanite, Persian as well as Hebrew Greek and Roman traditions. For example, I read the Books of Mark and Luke many years ago in their original Greek forms. Mark was barely literate with very limited language skills whereas Luke was clearly an educated man who wrote superbly well - totally different writers. Suggesting that the Bible is God's word is demonstrably nonsense as evidenced by hundreds of contradictions; Believing that is stupid too because it forces the farcical belief that a supposedly perfect God is responsible for all those contradictions and errors.

NB Some so called biblical scholars have tried to claim that Prisca was a man thus justifying their prejudices. However, some 38 gravestones commemorating various Priscas from the first and second century have been found which clearly identify them all as women.

 

[Tryharder62]

I have just finished watching Dr Jonathon Miller's 'Atheism Tapes.' very interesting interviews with exceptional people of very different backgrounds/beliefs. Easily found on Youtube and beneficial to believers of all types.

I finished the rest of the interviews while I was working around the house. No doubt very intelligent people. I agree to disagree though!

 

[phrodeau]

How small is Minneapolis?

Oh, it’s tiny. Miniscule. Insignificant.

It isn’t mentioned in the Bible at all. Neither is the state of Minnesota, the United States, North America, or the entire western hemisphere. It’s as if God has no idea that it exists.

Maybe God is an acontinentist.

 

[Tryharder62]

Sad disturbance in a big town near me. They had heard there were going to be protests so the local Mall and Walmart there boarded up their stores. There were about 45 serious calls of disturbances and 2 people killed. One an officer. So many stories like this. So scary.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

I finished the rest of the interviews while I was working around the house. No doubt very intelligent people. I agree to disagree though!

That is what I like about Tryharder. She will at least examine other "evidence" or "opinion". The fact that in the end she choose her faith, is perfectly fine.
Faith is just that, a belief not needing "proof".

When it comes to religion, ( and it doesn't really matter which region) there is no definitive proof of a higher being's existence. Trying to prove " a Religious Faith" is just an effort in futility, and the same can be said about trying to disprove said Faith.

I as a non believer in any religion have come to my point of view by examining the "proofs" offered up to support it. I have never found anything which is definitive. Nor can I find any "proof" which refutes directly any or all Religion.

That said, when I weigh the evidence on both sides, scientific vs religion, I cannot help but come away with the view that the Universe and all that is in it, was not created by any single entity that would have any concern about one small insignificant planet amongst the billions of billions of planets that currently exist.

Which brings me back to Tryharder, she lives her Faith, and accepts it, and does not try and cherry pick it since it not something based upon "Evidence, but instead Faith and Belief.

Unlike others on here who use it as a shield and a screen, and pretend the "chosen" Bible ( pick your particular version) with the chosen "Books" ,(again) certain religions use or discard "books" which best fit their overall narrative....

 

[Fuzzy1975]

The Lord knows what He is doing.

For your sake I hope so, because Trump sure has no fucking clue...

 

[phrodeau]

Hogwash!

Trump is extremely wise and has fixed America. He fixed the economy. He fixed poverty. He helped minorities. He helped the religious. He fixed the military. He fixed the trade imbalance. He made America the #1 oil producer in the world. He fixed the energy problem.

Obama hurt the economy. He caused more poverty. He did nothing for minorities. He hurt religious rights. He let the military go. He ignored the trade imbalance. He blocked the US from producing oil and energy.

Yet Democrats would rather have Obama. Makes no sense.

Obama is a Christian and Trump is not.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Hogwash!

Trump is extremely wise and has fixed America. He fixed the economy. He fixed poverty. He helped minorities. He helped the religious. He fixed the military. He fixed the trade imbalance. He made America the #1 oil producer in the world. He fixed the energy problem.

Obama hurt the economy. He caused more poverty. He did nothing for minorities. He hurt religious rights. He let the military go. He ignored the trade imbalance. He blocked the US from producing oil and energy.

Yet Democrats would rather have Obama. Makes no sense.

Have you looked at the news lately? Most unemployed in America since the great depression. Rioting in the streets in over 40 major metropolitan areas. No end in sight for either. Trump locked away in bunker, laying out plans to bring in the Military.

The US is as fucked up as I have ever seen it, and I thought 1968 was bad year for the US...you best be on your hands and knees praying your saviour is coming...chuckles.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

America is in a Spiritual and Political war against an evil enemy. Trump is the last blockade for the evil to overcome in order to destroy America and it's Christian foundation. Everything you see is the result of that. The Democrat Party is now controlled by a satanic drive to destroy America and turn it Socialist to bring about Globalism. Doesn't the Bible talk about Globalism? The Anti Christ? Most horrific time in history? It's coming soon. Yes you need to get right with the Lord. Read this first post if you haven't yet.

You sure have drank of the kool aid.

And yes I read the first post, ( as you well know X) and voted there as well.

It's a shame people like you give Religion such a bad name, and those honest souls like Tryharder end up paying the price....

 

[PaxNurgle]

That's the biggest joke I have ever heard.

Obama did everything he could to fight against Christians and Christian principals.

Trump is doing everything he can to help Christians and Christian principals.

Oh please....I would love to hear what twisted warped logic you would use to explain THAT one!!

raising taxes on the poor while giving the rich a tax break? Building walls to keep minorities out? Cutting health care funding? Provoking war with our enemies? Burning treaties with other countries? Gutting environemntal protection laws? Geez, those sure are REAL Christian principles right there.

I am a Christian, unlike you (who obviously has no real understanding of what Jesus truely represents) and I find Trump an affront to my Christian values.

Oh, and I would also love to hear how Obama "Did everything he could to fight against Christians and Christian principles."

You know on second thought, you needn't bother to explain. You are clearly either a blatant troll or an idiot- and I'm sorry, but your statement reeks of such juvenile idiocy I am almost sorry I even responded to it.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

It's a shame that people like you not only refuse to enter into salvation yourself, but you hinder others from coming to it.

Chuckles, looking at the bullshit you post, I see you as more of a hindrance than me.

I do not hide that I do not believe in god as the creator. But I also accept those who are true in their faith. Since no one can prove or disprove if there is a god, all that is left is Faith.

I can respect the Faithful, but not the bullshiters, and you are one. You and your ilk are a Pox in this world.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Raising taxes on the poor? That would be Democrats. Giving everyone a tax break. That would be Republicans. ?

If you check the last tax break you will notice that the top 1% are the chief benefactors.

Seems to me, taxing those top 1% would make more sense than giving them a tax break. After all if you have a couple billion in the bank, I am sure the last thing you really need is a tax cut....I hope you enjoy the damage Trump is doing, you sure seem blind to it otherwise...

PS Jesus didn't seem to care about taxes, but he did have a problem with the money changers as I recall...

 

[PaxNurgle]

Here is why I find FisherAmen's post so deeply offensive.

My relationship with Jesus Christ is built on love and compassion, and the appreciation for all of God's works. When I see people twist these values around, I get upset because I see my core values, which came from my faith, being violated. And when I see these values inverted while proclaiming these inverted values to be "Christian" I find it especially upsetting.

Consider: The Spanish conqueror Pizarro converted large swaths of the indiginous South American people to Christianity in the 16th century. Was he a good Christian leader? He also slaughtered them by the thousands and plundered their empire. And yet some proclaim him a "Great Christian." Over in Europe, that same century, Vlad Tepes was a Christian leader from eastern Europe who held off and defeated an invading Islamic Ottoman army, saving Eastern Europe for Christ. Was he a Great Christian? Vlad Tepes also slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people, and brutally tortured tens of thousands to death, in the name of Jesus. He was so ruthless that they called him "Vlad the Impaler" and the Dracula novels were loosely based on him. But he was a great Christian, right? According to some people, he was exactly that.

And here we have Trump. He lies, and decives people all the time. Jesus says it's okay to lie, right? Wrong. He cares nothing for the working people of this country, in fact, he is seeking to plunder it for his own wealthy gain. He tries to circumvent the system of checks and balances to gain absolute power and enact a police state. He tries to censor the press. He has cut heath care and social programs that help the less fortunate, because, you know, they are "Socialism." Really, come on- you think Jesus approves of that? (He does not.) He insults and demeans and seeks to destroy good people. He upholds torture and those who violate human rights. You admire him for his ruthlessness and his power, dont you. Because he proclaims himself "Christian." But his acts are not those of a just, compassionate, follower of Christ. They are the opposite. You are too stubborn to admit it. And thats your problem- you are stubborn. But some day, perhaps before it is too late hopefully, you will realize you have been deceived.

 

[PaxNurgle]

Or look at it this way: Lets go back even further, two thousand twenty years ago to be exact.

A young couple, with a child that appears to have been conceived and born out of wedlock, seeks to return to a village they were once born in, but are now strangers. They have no place to stay.

What would Trump and his followers say if they were ruling Judea at that time? "What a bunch of freeloading socialists! Illegal immegrants, LOCK EM UP! and put them in a frigid cage!" " So here is a woman with a child born out of wedlock? She is an adultress and a whore! No way we're letting her in" "No money, no place to stay? Freeloading socialist liberal scum, always wanting a hand out. Lets fine them instead. Oh but wait they have no money to pay a fine, because we took their money in taxes so King Herod could get that new ivory backscratcher he had a hankering for. So they're dead broke huh? LOCK EM UP!"

And if you do not believe that is EXACTLY what Trump and his followers would have reacted to the mother of our LORD on that night long ago- again- you are stubborn and blind.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Here is why I find FisherAmen's post so deeply offensive.

My relationship with Jesus Christ is built on love and compassion, and the appreciation for all of God's works. When I see people twist these values around, I get upset because I see my core values, which came from my faith, being violated. And when I see these values inverted while proclaiming these inverted values to be "Christian" I find it especially upsetting.

And I can respect that. Which is the point I try and get across to Xphrodo, or fisheramen or what ever alt he chooses. But he can't because he uses Religion as a mask. It is not a Faith to him and his breatheren, it is a tool.

 

[ishtat]

I finished the rest of the interviews while I was working around the house. No doubt very intelligent people. I agree to disagree though!

That's fine. I don't agree with any of them entirely either. Neither do I agree with you! The trick is to keep an open mind and ears.

However, I certainly do not agree with xfrodobaggins, especially after he admitted he was a follower of that fellow Feldick. Feldicks notion that the gospels are concerned with the 'Kingdom' and it is only Paul - more precisely that Feldick's misinterpretation of Paul is more important, which is heresy for the vast majority of Christians. I am confident that 99.99% of Christians would disagree with Feldick and his followers..

Incidentally I also analysed the accounts of Feldick's organization (my skill set). He is not a major league fraudster but he is doing very very nicely out of the mugs that follow him.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

If you check your facts, you will see that the top 1% pay 49% of all taxes in the US, therefore, they SHOULD get a larger tax break than someone who does not. It's only fair and it helps them hire more workers.

The top one percent of the usual income distribution holds over $25 trillion in wealth, which exceeds the wealth of the bottom 80 percent. That is more than all the goods and services produced in the U.S. economy in 2018.

Individual tax
For the 1964 tax year, the top marginal tax rate for individuals was lowered to 77%, and then to 70% for tax years 1965 through 1981. In 1978 income brackets were adjusted for inflation, so fewer people were taxed at high rates.[37] The top marginal tax rate was lowered to 50% for tax years 1982 through 1986.[38] Reagan undid 40% of his 1981 tax cut, in 1983 he hiked gas and payroll taxes, and in 1984 he raised tax revenue by closing loopholes for businesses.[39] According to historian and domestic policy adviser Bruce Bartlett, Reagan's 12 tax increases over the course of his presidency took back half of the 1981 tax cut.[40]

Corporate tax
The United States' corporate tax rate was at its highest, 52.8 percent, in 1968 and 1969. The top rate was hiked last in 1993 to 35 percent.[66] Under the "Tax Cuts and Jobs Act" of 2017, the rate adjusted to 21 percent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histo...=By 1918, the top rate,finally to 24% in 1929.

Trying to limit that amount of money someone makes because YOU are jealous of them, doesn't make it right.

Taxes do not limit anyone from earning an income ...are you that uniformed or ignorant?

Quit trying to insert what you think I think into this, and just answer back to the points. I do not care how much a person earns, I do care that EVERYONE who enjoy's and benefits from Canada's society, pays their fair share...Why Americans don't, is beyond me.

Trump is doing a great job.

Wait I withdraw my question on your intelligence, this statement above answered it.

I don't CARE how much money other people make, because it is none of my business. The greedy people are those who want to take from those who worked hard.

Where did I say I care about it either, but I'll bet which ever church you go to ask's you to give up what 10-20% of your income to the collection plate...Those people sure care...

Jesus paid His taxes. We see that in Scripture.

So why do all his followers bitch and complain about paying their taxes then?

What Jesus cared about were the greedy, not those who make more than Him, but those who tried to cheat others out of money.

And you profess to be both Christian and support Trump. Trump a person who assaults women, scams people out of their money. Doesn't pay his subcontractors...Trumps list of SIN is long, but you in your false Faith let that slide because he seems to benefit you personally...chuckles... some Christian you are...

 

[PaxNurgle]

The United States is FAR Richer, Better, Stronger & Freer than Canada. Canada needs to do things the way WE do it, not the other way around.

Four more years of Trump, and I guarantee that won't be the case. If that isnt already true. You are seriously in denial, and I suspect a lot of that is just stubbornness, and the fear of admitting you were wrong.

 

[phrodeau]

Yep, that Christian Obama really screwed up the country. Why should any Christian be trusted again?

 

[Fuzzy1975]

The United States is FAR Richer, Better, Stronger & Freer than Canada. Canada needs to do things the way WE do it, not the other way around.

Why? We have less death from COVID-19, less national debt, better government, better social safety nets, more freedoms ( you can go topless in Ontario anywhere in public, male or female,try that in the States) PET said back in 1970's the Government has no place in the bedrooms of consenting adults. Pot is legal, minimal Racism, our cops shoot people way less than the US, and if they do it illegally, they get charged, convicted and go to jail. We have had less mass shootings in our total history than one year in the US ( pick a year any year from the US and we still have less). We are fully multicultural, better educated (68% of Canadians have a college or university degree) our health care is free ( on a comparison between our system and US the scores are virtually equal). We have more land area, more resources, more of everything, except stupid fucked up Religious freaks like you....oh and we are very polite as a society....