How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[dolf]

I have another question. It's for anyone - I don't want to put you on the spot. I had one atheist give me an answer that I really understood but I wondered if others felt the same. Do atheists have a spirituality?

There's no right answer, because atheists are not a group. They're millions of individuals, with no group agreed philosophy.

Once upon a time i had what you could describe as spirituality, i suppose, but now I don't think I do. We're all just worm food in waiting, which in itself is a beautiful thing. I'm all for recycling.

 

[Led_Astray]

Do atheists have a spirituality?

Depends what you mean by that, but given that lack of evidence is the most common reason to reject religion, it seems likely to me that most atheists would reject spirituality for the same reason.

But obviously I can't speak definitively for any atheist but myself - as dolf said, we are not an organisation. We don't have an overall creed that tells use what we should and shouldn't believe or what we should or should not do.

 

[CandiCame]

There's no right answer, because atheists are not a group. They're millions of individuals, with no group agreed philosophy.

Once upon a time i had what you could describe as spirituality, i suppose, but now I don't think I do. We're all just worm food in waiting, which in itself is a beautiful thing. I'm all for recycling.

I'm an implicit atheist, meaning I was just never indoctrinated with bullshit. And from what I've seen, people that were go through a process.

And that process is that one day they look at their particular religion, and they have that realization, that, "Wait a second... this is bullshit. None of this makes any sense."

But they've been raised to think that spirituality is a thing that exists. So they think, "Well, this PARTICULAR religion doesn't make sense, but the... idk spirit realm... is a thing that I have been raised to believe, so I just have to find the set of beliefs that do make sense."

Because they really want something. They want there to be something more than what there actually is. Because somebody told them that was a thing. If nobody ever tells you that's a thing, or if somebody does and you don't buy into it, you never go through this. This whole process is thrust upon people, and it frankly pisses me off. Because it makes people go through pain for no reason. Because none of it is ever going to make sense. Faith, by design, doesn't make sense. Faith requires you to believe bullshit. And something that believers don't seem to understand is that if you're the kind of person who has a bullshit detector- you are incapable of believing bullshit. They seem to think it's that we've decided not to. It's not. It's that we are completely incapable. You don't choose what you believe. If you have a bullshit detector, then you know that the truth is what the facts are. So when someone says, "A Socialist Jewish carpenter came back from the dead and told me that I can cure my skin rash by rubbing dead birds on it," we don't believe you. Full stop. There's no amount of wanting to believe that will make us believe you. And if you try to take that energy and apply it to, "This dude Muhammad had a bad dream and now women should be forced to get married against their will," we'll still just be like, "I don't believe you." Then people start digging up old shit, like Norse or Celtic or whatever, because part of them must think that if they just go back, just find the origin, they can make it make sense.

But it never does. All they keep finding are historical reasons that those beliefs developed, with nothing to support the beliefs themselves. And eventually, it can take months, years, or decades, they figure out, "Wait, no, it's all bullshit. The core concept was bullshit. That's what I was missing- the core concept."

Because spirituality is bullshit. Like we have so many studies on it, we know prayer doesn't work, we know woo faith healing doesn't work regardless of which faith you're pulling from, like we know that at the end of the day, it's ALL bullshit. And if you're the kind of person who can see through bullshit, you can't force yourself to believe, even if you really want to. There are people who really, really want to believe. But it's bullshit. And they can't believe bullshit.

If you're religious, you can't think too hard on it. That's why not questioning the religion is baked into most religions. Because the second you start questioning, you start seeing the bullshit. And because you can't make yourself believe, you lose your faith. And if you think that's a bad thing, that can fuck you up. It's not a bad thing, but people teach their kids that it is, and then they believe it, and then it fucks them up. Faith is holding people back. We need to lose it as we mature. But people get lied to, usually by their parents, and so they hang on to this ability to believe in bullshit, which actively hinders their critical thinking skills and their reasoning skills.

There are actual sociohistorical reasons for this. Religion has been largely used as a method of control and imposed either by a culture or a specific ruler. If you can get people to believe in a magic man in the sky, you can get them to believe almost anything, because you force them to turn off their critical thinking skills. That's useful for a ruler. That's why so many rulers have claimed to be descended from gods or chosen by god or whatever.

But the default position for a human person, blank slate, is no religion, no spirituality. We have literal decades of research proving this, it's called 'implicit atheism', and even religious people know about it. That's why you have to 'train up' you kids, because if you don't indoctrinate them in the religion they'll just... not do it. They'll never develop a need for spirituality because that's something that's imposed upon people by their culture and their parents.

Which I honestly think is evil and needs to stop. Because I've seen the pain it causes and no good has ever come from it. You can do all the charity and build all the community without the need for those things. Those things were specifically designed to control people.

 

[CandiCame]

And led astray makes a good point. People with another faith are generally left alone. For most of my life i had a very poor view of Christians, because I'd only ever come across bullying, judgemental cunts who tried to force their views into the young. Frodo reminds me of them.

Since then I've met people who were decent and kind, and inspired me to at least read the Bible to see what makes them so happy.

See, I was raised in the bible belt. I read the bible and was like, "This is bullshit". I was never like... had religion and lost it because I saw people do evil. It's just... obviously bullshit. Even to a little kid. Like little kids know that bats aren't birds and you don't control what baby goats look like by having the mom look at or not look at sticks while she's getting dick. Like I was raised around animals, I knew babies looked like their parents regardless of number of sticks looked at while getting dick.

Most Christian kids are banned from reading the actual bible. Because of that, because it's such obvious bullshit. They make these "Children's bibles" that Christian parents read to their kids that sanitize the stories and cut out the most obvious bullshit parts. But my gramps had one of those big family decorative bibles, and he left it out and I read it, and it was bullshit.

It doesn't matter how happy something makes you- that doesn't make it real. I'd love to live in Hyrule but it's not real. Like that's great if somebody reads that book and likes it, but they just liked a book. It's not true, it's not a real thing, and it's not healthy to live in a fantasy world just because it makes you happy.

 

[dolf]

In England, despite almost everyone being an atheist, it was a legal requirement to include religious observance and study in schools. I credit that law for the number of atheists we've attained.

 

[Led_Astray]

In England, despite almost everyone being an atheist, it was a legal requirement to include religious observance and study in schools. I credit that law for the number of atheists we've attained.

It amuses me that here in England, where we have a state religion and we have the above requirement for some form of "thinking nice thoughts" we seem to have far less Evangelical, Bible thumping Christians than the US does, in spite of its alleged separation of church and state.

Getting abortion banned never crops up as a political manifesto point, a politician who banged on about how much he loves god would probably lose his seat, and even church sponsored schools teach the theory of evolution and the big bang theory without any complaints.

I suspect if people were honest in polls, and really though about it, we would come out as a majority atheist nation. It's just that people tend to tick the "Church of England" box when asked, not because they pray regularly or go to church services, but because that's what their parents did.

/Not that I can take the Church of England at all seriously as a religion, but that's another story entirely.

 

[dolf]

The CofE response is probably more to do with the love of traditional white weddings and sombre funerals, Easter chocolate and Christmas presents. They're comforting traditions that cement our society, rather than religious observance.

 

[Led_Astray]

The CofE response is probably more to do with the love of traditional white weddings and sombre funerals, Easter chocolate and Christmas presents. They're comforting traditions that cement our society, rather than religious observance.

Indeed. I bet most of them only go to church for weddings, christenings and funerals, and never pray between times. But on the other hand, nor do they proselytise or harass others.

 

[dolf]

That and faith schools, which are generally more middle/upper class than bog standard state schools. Join a church, get a better school.

I know someone who used to teach in a CofE school. She said only the head was religious, and she always felt guilty for spouting a "truth" she didn't believe.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

In England, despite almost everyone being an atheist, it was a legal requirement to include religious observance and study in schools. I credit that law for the number of atheists we've attained.

It would be great if they would teach the Conservative Christian perspective. I am doubtful that that is the case.

 

[Tryharder62]

Well thank you that was interesting. CandiCame I just have to say something about you talking like you know what Christians think, feel and do. Like:Most Christian kids are banned from reading the actual bible. You really don't know what is going on with Christians but I would be glad to discuss it. Christians not letting their kids read the actual bible that we believe is the inspired word of God. Bullpucky!

 

[dolf]

Well thank you that was interesting. CandiCame I just have to say something about you talking like you know what Christians think, feel and do. Like:Most Christian kids are banned from reading the actual bible. You really don't know what is going on with Christians but I would be glad to discuss it. Christians not letting their kids read the actual bible that we believe is the inspired word of God. Bullpucky!

I can't say what most (or even a significant amount) do, but I've come across this. I pastor (not CofE) told me that reading the Bible without the right training and insight meant that the devil was probably controlling what you read. I shit you not.

Candi has a tendency to extrapolate from one person's experience in one part of the world.

 

[RocketLauncher]

http://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/art-history-memes-8-5a5dc28731009__700.jpg

 

[Led_Astray]

It would be great if they would teach the Conservative Christian perspective. I am doubtful that that is the case.

Well, as a primary teacher in the UK who did most of his training and teaching in church schools, I can tell you that we absolutely teach what the bible says about creation, the special people of Christianity, Christian worship and ceremonies, and what Christians believe.

However, we also do the same about Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Sikhism, and Buddhism. if there is another faith group that is significant locally, we teach about that too. (We teach about evolution too, but in Science, not RE - The Big Bang doesn't really get mentioned in primary school, unless pupils ask about it).

I don't emphasise any one as being more or less worthy than any other, I let the kids decide (unless their parents have already decided for them, but for the average person in the UK that's not really the case).

Most of my year 6 pupils historically have chosen to self identify as Atheists, without me ever telling them that's what I believe, and without me being negative about any of the religions. (Most of them also agree that Jewish Weddings look a lot more fun the Christian ones)

 

[Led_Astray]

Vis Candicames point, though, I doubt that there are many kids capable of reading the actual bible. Or adults for that matter - Koptic Greek and/or hebrew are not commonly taught languages, after all.

 

[dolf]

Well, as a primary teacher in the UK who did most of his training and teaching in church schools, I can tell you that we absolutely teach what the bible says about creation, the special people of Christianity, Christian worship and ceremonies, and what Christians believe.

However, we also do the same about Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Sikhism, and Buddhism. if there is another faith group that is significant locally, we teach about that too. (We teach about evolution too, but in Science, not RE - The Big Bang doesn't really get mentioned in primary school, unless pupils ask about it).

I don't emphasise any one as being more or less worthy than any other, I let the kids decide (unless their parents have already decided for them, but for the average person in the UK that's not really the case).

Most of my year 6 pupils historically have chosen to self identify as Atheists, without me ever telling them that's what I believe, and without me being negative about any of the religions. (Most of them also agree that Jewish Weddings look a lot more fun the Christian ones)

It's good that RE is more inclusive these days. It used to be 99% bible, with barely an acknowledgement that other faiths existed. I used to call it RI (religious indoctrination).

I always got an A

 

[colddiesel]

It would be great if they would teach the Conservative Christian perspective. I am doubtful that that is the case.

The conservative Christian perspective in fact would be the christianity taught to the vast majority of christians by the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches, which have been thoroughly conservative for almost 2000 years .Your radical literalist claptrap is a comparatively recent phenomenon led by a largely poorly educated leadership. It barely exists outside a very small minority in the USA.

The best comparison for you is not with other christians but with other fundamentalists, particularly in Islam and Hinduism. You share the same intolerance, the same anger, and the same absence of either compassion or humility.

Tryharder is a genuine christian Xfrodo - you are not. She lives her faith while you rant, rave, threaten, bully and boor. Jesus would not recognize you for a second as a follower.

 

[dolf]

.Your radical literalist claptrap is a comparatively recent phenomenon led by a largely poorly educated leadership. It barely exists outside a very small minority in the USA.

It's certainly nothing like the norm in Europe. In England it's all quietly spoken vicars or priests, in dog collars, with traditional hymns. Nobody yells or dances in the aisles.

 

[Led_Astray]

It's good that RE is more inclusive these days. It used to be 99% bible, with barely an acknowledgement that other faiths existed. I used to call it RI (religious indoctrination).

I always got an A

Well, in those days there was only one book to study

 

[dolf]

Well, in those days there was only one book to study

Exactly. All you needed was a basic ability to retain information, and not to laugh too much.

My daughter studied it at A level a few years ago, and it actually sounded fascinating. There was a disclaimer on the first day, that it might not be the best class for anyone devoutly religious.

 

[dolf]

I think you can get an inkling of the UK's feelings about US style worship if you watch the faces of the congregation during the royal wedding. That guy was tame by American standards, but seemed bizarre and alien here.

 

[von_Bismarck]

I have another question. It's for anyone - I don't want to put you on the spot. I had one atheist give me an answer that I really understood but I wondered if others felt the same. Do atheists have a spirituality?

In my experience, there is an entire spectrum of belief and disbelief that might fall under the heading nonreligious, atheism included. Not everyone who fails to profess a religion, or even a belief in any god, is a hard nosed naturalist. You could have spiritualists of different stripes, or new agers who talk about crystal power and energy fields.

 

[Led_Astray]

I think you can get an inkling of the UK's feelings about US style worship if you watch the faces of the congregation during the royal wedding. That guy was tame by American standards, but seemed bizarre and alien here.

American evangelical preachers always make me think of TV wrestling commentators.

Frothing at the mouth to enthuse over something that everyone except the kids knows isn't real.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Good. Did you notice that not everyone voted the same as you did?

I voted no, which is about 53 % of the respondents to the poll. I would not expect us all to vote the same.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

American evangelical preachers always make me think of TV wrestling commentators.

Frothing at the mouth to enthuse over something that everyone except the kids knows isn't real.

I first read the bible in it's entirety when I was 10-12 years old. The bible was given to me by the Gideon's society when I was in public school ( the whole class was given one, not just me). While reading it, when I looked at the old Testament and all the stuff about Moses and the 10 Commandments ( as one example). I thought, this could be from Aliens visiting earth, passing on their ideology to help humans form a better society.

The New Testament whe I read of the miracles performed by Christ, I thought, well if I could go back in time, I could do them myself. Given the knowledge modern people know, any of us could raise a person from the dead ( let us say a drowning victim or heart attack).

Those were how I viewed the bible then, and still do now. Reading the bible to me, freed me from church and the dogma that goes with organised religions.

While I still state there is a lot of good teachings in the bible, on how one should live, or treat others, etc, never once after I read it myself has it had a spiritual or faith meaning to me ever again.

After the bible, I moved on the Qur'an which I read in grade 9 in high school. By the time I graduate high school I had also read up on Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism.

All to me required a Faith, none really had any Facts, so by 18 I had moved on to what was left. The reality of living. The end of life is death where we return to star dust from where all matter is born.