How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[TeflonGuy]

Oops! Time for church!

My sensei has invited me and I must go!

 

[WrongVerb]

I already said this: we can't devise a repeatable experiment capable of demonstrating these facts in a controlled laboratory environment. But that doesn't mean that there isn't plenty of forensic and historical evidence to support them. Far from it.

Also, why can't you look at the evidence for Jesus and decide if you believe that the evidence for him in beyond a reasonable doubt? Because science says so? We use that reasonable doubt to decide someone's life and death in the judicial system. There is no empirical evidence that empirical evidence is required for us to rationally believe something. There are other methods.

I do admit this....You do have to have faith. No way around it.

Not being able to devise a test should be your first clue that whatever you believe isn't an accurate description of reality.

Your second clue should be that it requires your imagination, which is what you're doing when you demand "faith."

Third, others in this thread have outlined significant problems with the presented evidence for a historical Jesus. You've dismissed or minimized those criticisms, and I won't go down that rabbit hole with you. I will note, however, that even if a historical Jesus existed, that still doesn't imply divinity. He could have just been a random rabbi.

Fourth, you still haven't addressed the fact that no god has been observed by anybody, anywhere on earth, at any time in history. If your god existed, then it would exist, and we human beings would be able to observe and describe it. (Btw, "I feel good" and "the universe is pretty" is not evidence.)

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

With two exceptions, none are contemporary to Jesus, and the two exceptions don’t mention Jesus at all.

So, do these historians know more than you do about the historicity of Jesus existence? I think they would know if Jesus existed or not. Some of them were Roman historians, which were always in fear of being killed if they made a mistake or an exaggeration with the facts.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

List of Trump's accomplishments:

http://www.newsweek.com/trumps-first-year-his-top-82-accomplishments-786130

 

[Tryharder62]

Let's look at a miracle. Say the wedding at Cana, where Jesus turned water into wine.

Big party, lots of people from different parts of the country. At least a few attending would be literate. The celebrant rabbi certainly would have the resources to write down the experience. Such things get noticed and retained in the memory of the community.

As Jesus grew in fame, the event would be told and retold, written accounts would be read out loud in public, witnesses would be found and interviewed, and appeals made to Jesus for more of the same.

Yet there is only one point where it's mentioned at all, in one gospel. There is no corroborating evidence anywhere. Zilch.

Not everyone knew how to read and write. We are so accustomed to the idea of being able to read and write that we take it for granted and assume that people of the New Testament time could do the same. But the fact is, the great majority could not read or write. Many people would use hired scribes who would write documents for people. Those that could afford to hire someone.

My opinion is that Jesus was still there. Their focus was him. Listening to what he was saying and yes, following him to see what he would do or say next. Just my thoughts.

 

[TeflonGuy]

List of Trump's accomplishments:

http://www.newsweek.com/trumps-first-year-his-top-82-accomplishments-786130

You don't want hear about me going to church today? It's pretty awesome.

We're well aware of Trump's miracles. Thanks for the link though.

 

[phrodeau]

Not everyone knew how to read and write. We are so accustomed to the idea of being able to read and write that we take it for granted and assume that people of the New Testament time could do the same. But the fact is, the great majority could not read or write. Many people would use hired scribes who would write documents for people. Those that could afford to hire someone.

My opinion is that Jesus was still there. Their focus was him. Listening to what he was saying and yes, following him to see what he would do or say next. Just my thoughts.

The devout would know the biblical stories, scriptures, proverbs and songs. They certainly would have known the folklore of their heroes. The water-to-wine business should have been common knowledge, but only shows up in writing in one place.

 

[Tryharder62]

Not being able to devise a test should be your first clue that whatever you believe isn't an accurate description of reality.

Your second clue should be that it requires your imagination, which is what you're doing when you demand "faith."

Third, others in this thread have outlined significant problems with the presented evidence for a historical Jesus. You've dismissed or minimized those criticisms, and I won't go down that rabbit hole with you. I will note, however, that even if a historical Jesus existed, that still doesn't imply divinity. He could have just been a random rabbi.

No rabbit hole, I just think there is enough evidence that Jesus lived. Look at forensic science and archeology. Interesting. I agree, it doesn't imply divinity.

Fourth, you still haven't addressed the fact that no god has been observed by anybody, anywhere on earth, at any time in history. If your god existed, then it would exist, and we human beings would be able to observe and describe it. (Btw, "I feel good" and "the universe is pretty" is not evidence.)

Well, I have never been asked about this. I will assume that I am not able to use the bible as my evidence. It is in the Old Testament, although He was not seen in his full glory. If Jesus is indeed God, people saw Him. It is difficult for us to grasp since our spirits live in physical bodies and our physical bodies inhabit a physical universe. Our occupation with the physical makes us try to put our relationship with God into that same realm. It doesn't work.

 

[TeflonGuy]

The devout would know the biblical stories, scriptures, proverbs and songs. They certainly would have known the folklore of their heroes. The water-to-wine business should have been common knowledge, but only shows up in writing in one place.

Those books have been rewritten so many times, its rediculous.

I'd love to see the lost scrolls

 

[Tryharder62]

The devout would know the biblical stories, scriptures, proverbs and songs. They certainly would have known the folklore of their heroes. The water-to-wine business should have been common knowledge, but only shows up in writing in one place.

Most would have known through verbally sharing it. Yes, they would have known. I just said most couldn't write or read. John could.

 

[Hypoxia]

Josephus isn't forged, with that said, what about these writings from Dr. Nelson Price.

http://www.nelsonprice.com/early-secular-writings-regarding-christ/

As mentioned, they're irrelevant. Also, Dr Nelson wasn't there. Nobody was, because gospel events didn't happen. Nice mythology, though, even if more than a bit plagiarized. Copying happens.

Those books have been rewritten so many times, its rediculous.

I'd love to see the lost scrolls

See The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception for a vivid take. Saul/Paul, the torturer and death-squad leader who founded Xianity knowing nothing of Yeshua, is shown as a Roman agent sent to infiltrate and discredit the Jewish Revolt.

Most would have known through verbally sharing it. Yes, they would have known. I just said most couldn't write or read. John could.

No contemporary eyewitness accounts exist. No contemporary records corroborate gospel events except the proliferation of messiahs and prophets. Roman military and civil officials, and Hebrew leaders could and did read and write. None mentioned Yeshua. Sad.

Ah, if Yeshua (or someone of the same name)(*) existed, then linking to the Jewish Revolt makes sense. A cell of 12 patriots with one sicarii (short-sword assassin)(**), sailors (smugglers? pirates?), strong-arm guys, and a militant 'bandit' leader. Yeshua was supposedly executed torturously with 'robbers' aka bandits aka rebels. A petty bandit was surely tied to a low cross, head down. When he died, dogs would eat him, the ultimate abomination with no burial. A bandit leader might be left up as an example: fuck with the Empire and be fed to dogs, crows, scavengers. Bodies stayed crucified till they rotted. That's how the Romans worked.

But evidence and history don't matter. Faith demanding evidence is a weak faith. Belief trumps reality.
_____

(*) Some scholars say the Illiad and Odyssey were not written by Homer but by another Greek of the same name. Yeshua and Homer probably were not uncommon names, so keep that in mind.

(**) An iscariot carried under their robes a dagger or short sword (sicarious) for stealthy assassinations. Mafioso still use the term sicarii for bladesmen. Or so I've read.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

You don't want hear about me going to church today? It's pretty awesome.

We're well aware of Trump's miracles. Thanks for the link though.

What happened at Church?

 

[Tryharder62]

But evidence and history don't matter. Faith demanding evidence is a weak faith. Belief trumps reality.

Are you being sarcastic here? I can't tell.

No one I have seen on this thread, who said they were Christian, is asking for the evidence. I think wanting to know why you believe what you believe is not weak. It is smart.

In my opinion, God is reality. We have a lot to learn.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Did you look at the historical writings regarding Christ that I posted?

 

[Hypoxia]

But evidence and history don't matter. Faith demanding evidence is a weak faith. Belief trumps reality.

Are you being sarcastic here? I can't tell.

Sarcastic, no. Sardonic, yes. That's a bitter truth. Belief cannot be objective.

I detailed my experiences to you a few months back. Closely or not, I've looked into many belief systems. None pass reality checks. Knowledge systems test and correct themselves. Belief systems don't. Belief is divorced from reality, which is what's left when you stop believing.

Humans have invented zillions of deities and faiths and rituals. Fun fun fun. Those I carve some mornings are just as 'real' as those and cost much less.

 

[Hypoxia]

Did you look at the historical writings regarding Christ that I posted?

I have read a great many Xian texts over my seven decades. I have read actual histories. They don't match.

 

[Tryharder62]

Sarcastic, no. Sardonic, yes. That's a bitter truth. Belief cannot be objective.

I detailed my experiences to you a few months back. Closely or not, I've looked into many belief systems. None pass reality checks. Knowledge systems test and correct themselves. Belief systems don't. Belief is divorced from reality, which is what's left when you stop believing.

Humans have invented zillions of deities and faiths and rituals. Fun fun fun. Those I carve some mornings are just as 'real' as those and cost much less.

I really do acknowledge your study of this subject. I do look at your opinions closely because of this. I just agree to disagree on this one.

You have had a different "religious" experience than I have. I still believe God is reality. We can only see our part of the big picture.

What is most important is what truth are you going to live by. What is your truth. Me, I do believe that Jesus lived. I study His teachings. I liked what they had to say. I do have faith that He is who He says he was. This is how I want my life to be directed. He is my mentor.

An interesting thing to ask everyone is what is your truth?

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

I have read a great many Xian texts over my seven decades. I have read actual histories. They don't match.

What's different?

 

[phrodeau]

What's different?

Jesus's grandfather.

 

[Hypoxia]

What's different?

The beginning and end of the Yeshua story don't accord with known history. The middle is missing, alas -- Yeshua's years as a brothel boy in Alexandria and a bartender in Basra, excursions to Tibet and training in Buddhism, etc.

Then there are all those OT (edited Hebrew Scriptures) boners. The storied Exodus left no evidence, none, and doesn't match recorded history. Evidence shoots down the idea of a global Flood. And... aw fuck, the list goes on.

Believe what you want. Have fun.

 

[Tryharder62]

Jesus's grandfather.

One of the best answer to this is The Virgin Birth of Christ by J. Gresham Machen. The solution Machen argues for is that "while the Matthean genealogy traces the successive heirs to the throne of David from David to Joseph, the Lucan genealogy traces the ancestors of Joseph back to David."

He explains, "The Lucan genealogy, in other words, starts with the question, 'Who was Josheph's "father"?' the answer to that question is, 'Heli.' . . . In the Matthean genealogy, on the other hand, we start with the question, 'Who was the heir to David's throne?' The answer is, "Solomon,' and so on down to Joseph.

You can see the signal that something like this is happening by comparing how the genealogies are the same from Abraham to king David, and then they diverge. For example, in Luke 3:31 it says that Nathan is David's son, while in Matthew 1:6 it says that David was the father of Solomon. Now we know from 2 Samuel 5:14 that Nathan and Solomon were both sons of David. But only Solomon was the heir of the throne (1 Kings 1:13).

Interesting!

 

[phrodeau]

One of the best answer to this is The Virgin Birth of Christ by J. Gresham Machen. The solution Machen argues for is that "while the Matthean genealogy traces the successive heirs to the throne of David from David to Joseph, the Lucan genealogy traces the ancestors of Joseph back to David."

He explains, "The Lucan genealogy, in other words, starts with the question, 'Who was Josheph's "father"?' the answer to that question is, 'Heli.' . . . In the Matthean genealogy, on the other hand, we start with the question, 'Who was the heir to David's throne?' The answer is, "Solomon,' and so on down to Joseph.

You can see the signal that something like this is happening by comparing how the genealogies are the same from Abraham to king David, and then they diverge. For example, in Luke 3:31 it says that Nathan is David's son, while in Matthew 1:6 it says that David was the father of Solomon. Now we know from 2 Samuel 5:14 that Nathan and Solomon were both sons of David. But only Solomon was the heir of the throne (1 Kings 1:13).

Interesting!

Tell a Rabbi that Joseph was descended from King David, and he'll reply, "Nu, isn't everybody?"

 

[WrongVerb]

Speaking of big time problems in the OT, how about the internally illogical Garden of Eden story?

Basically, A&E were amoral (naked and unashamed) prior to Eve eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. God may have commanded her not to do that, but being amoral meant she had no concept of obedience or disobedience. And a concept of that is needed to form the intent to sin.

Thus there was no Original Sin. And therefore, no need for the Christ savior.

Ponder that as you continue about your day.

 

[Hypoxia]

Speaking of big time problems in the OT, how about the internally illogical Garden of Eden story?

Basically, A&E were amoral (naked and unashamed) prior to Eve eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. God may have commanded her not to do that, but being amoral meant she had no concept of obedience or disobedience. And a concept of that is needed to form the intent to sin.

My take: First, we have at least 3 creation myths mixed in Genesis. Gen.1 and Gen.2 tell entirely different stories prior to the Edenic crime. Ah, Eden -- it may be the Nile Delta if the Tree of Life is a date palm, or Kyrgizistan if it's an apple tree (that's their native range)

Next, consider Man (Adam) and Woman (Eve) in Eden. The ET alien Lord {JHWH} was too awe-filled for humans to behold directly and so would appear as a burning bush or something... or send messengers (angels). All A&E encountered were creatures of Lord {JHWH}. Any messages from The Boss, including proclamations of rules, would be delivered by some critter around them because no other people yet.

Question: If a Serpent (any reptile, really -- visualize talking lizard) says, "Hey kids, change of rules here, go ahead and gobble," how could they know that wasn't yet another divine message?

Answer: They couldn't. They were tricked by ET alien Lord {JHWH}, the divine trickster, Kokopeli with a bad attitude and an infant's desire for instant gratification and worship. That's what the Eden story reveals.

Thus there was no Original Sin. And therefore, no need for the Christ savior.

Ponder that as you continue about your day.

Ah, Original Sin. The Boss kicks humans out into the world and dooms all their progeny to eternal damnation. Some unknown thousands of years later, the immortal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent divine trickster clones itself inside the womb of an unmarried Palestinian Hebrew woman because no virgins or wise men cold be found in Florida.

The emergent godling performs magic tricks, pissess-off somebody, and gets crucified. Note: Jewish mobs didn't intimidate the Roman occupying forces, who urinated on them from fortress walls. Pilate got nasty reports and bad job ratings for mistreating the occupied population; was soon recalled. So Pilate bent to no popular will. And Romans crucified perps upside-down and low so their rotted remains would be eaten by dogs. Call it deterrence.

The immortal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent godling couldn't really die, so losing that mortal shell was no sacrifice. Still, to avoid damnation, humans must think certain thoughts and perform certain rituals. Those who lived before the godling's emergence, or lived far, far away, or have lived since but never heard The Word, are all fucked for eternity. Tough nougies.

Humans who thunk certain thoughts and worked certain rites right can float to heaven, along with all the aborted and miscarried embryos, who never had a conscious existence, so conversation must be pretty boring up there.

SPOILER: Heaven and Hell are human creations, built right here on Terra. No deities necessary. Keep those thoughts and prayers.

 

[Tryharder62]

Hypoxia;89286986
The immortal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent godling couldn't really die, so losing that mortal shell was no sacrifice. Still, to avoid damnation, humans must think certain thoughts and perform certain rituals. Those who lived before the godling's emergence, or lived far, far away, or have lived since but never heard The Word, are all fucked for eternity. Tough nougies.

Humans who thunk certain thoughts and worked certain rites right can float to heaven, along with all the aborted and miscarried embryos, who never had a conscious existence, so conversation must be pretty boring up there.

SPOILER: Heaven and Hell are human creations, built right here on Terra. No deities necessary. Keep those thoughts and prayers.

The requirement for salvation has always been faith. The object of one's faith for salvation has always been God. The psalmist wrote, “Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (Psalm 2:12). Genesis 15:6 tells us that Abraham believed God and that was enough for God to credit it to him for righteousness (Romans 4:3-8). The Old Testament sacrificial system did not take away sin, as Hebrews 10:1-10 clearly teaches. It did, however, point to the day when the Son of God would shed His blood for the sinful human race.

What has changed through the ages is the content of a believer's faith. God's requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time.

Throughout the Old Testament, believers came to salvation because they believed that God would someday take care of their sin problem. Today, we look back, believing that He has already taken care of it.