How to get rid of the "blame the victim" culture?

[Le Jacquelope]

A lot of ATMs close at night which is a huge inconvenience for someone driving across the state and who might need cash. Not to mention robbers now hit people at ATMs in broad daylight.

Hurricane Katrina victims were accused of being too stupid to leave the city even though the roads were clogged and many didn't have cars (hello, massive Hurricane Rita traffic jam in Texas?).

If someone's bank collapses and they lost $10K of their $110,000 in savings, some insane kooks say it's the depositor's fault?

And let's not even mention identity fraud... or the most classic example of what they used to (and sometimes still do) say to rape victims.


And ummm... what the hell happened to being able to leave your doors open at night?


We're not going to be safe in this country until we put the blame for crime solely on the perpetrator and toss the rest of these bullshit distractions aside. You commit a crime, it's your fault, not your parents' fault or society's fault or the fault of the citizen who left their door open because there's a nice draft outside. It's your fault. When do we start recognizing that?

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

It will happen when we stop coddling the damn trial lawyers. The lawyers push this attitude of which you speak. It's one of never admitting your culpability.

 

[sr71plt]

A lot of ATMs close at night which is a huge inconvenience for someone driving across the state and who might need cash. Not to mention robbers now hit people at ATMs in broad daylight.

Lots of services close down at night. We managed for thousands of years without ATM machines (and we also have credit cards now, which people got along without for thousands of years--credit cards that can be used in most places at night). People can just jolly well take responsibility for figuring out how to juggle their financial needs on their own. At a certain age, you're not supposed to need a babysitter anymore. I've never used an ATM in my life and I travel all over the world (sometimes at night) with no money problems at all.

Hurricane Katrina victims were accused of being too stupid to leave the city even though the roads were clogged and many didn't have cars (hello, massive Hurricane Rita traffic jam in Texas?).

Yep, many of the people involved had no practical way of getting out of the way and shouldn't be blamed for not being able to. I don't think many people do blame them for this, though. That doesn't mean that there are other folks who are all that blameworthy. It was a large natural disaster, with multiple reasons for not being prepared. We have to get over assuming that we can foresee everything that's ever going to happen in this line and have all of the prevention mechanisms in place--no one has those sorts of resources.

If someone's bank collapses and they lost $10K of their $110,000 in savings, some insane kooks say it's the depositor's fault?

Again, a personal responsibility thing. It never was a secret that the accounts weren't insured for over $100,000 (it actually was quite nice that the federal government insured them at all--and now it's nicer the amount has been upped). Banks were dripping in signs about the FDIC coverage. Depositors could have and should have asked if they had more money to bank than this--there were ways to get it protected that didn't take much effort.

The end result of what you are suggesting should happen would be that people who took responsibility for figuring out how to protect all of their banked money (which didn't take much effort to figure out) should now make up the difference for those who didn't. That doesn't sound too bright.

And let's not even mention identity fraud... or the most classic example of what they used to (and sometimes still do) say to rape victims.

Yep, those need work. Not too many people blame the victims, though, I don't think. And they pin the perpetrators to the wall when they can get hold of them. So, I'm not sure why this is included in this listing.

And ummm... what the hell happened to being able to leave your doors open at night?

It increasingly went away as the population became more dense. It never was all that safe; there just weren't as many people nearby with a hanker to invade someone's house (and there are more "toys" now to tempt theft than in years past).

We're not going to be safe in this country until we put the blame for crime solely on the perpetrator and toss the rest of these bullshit distractions aside. You commit a crime, it's your fault, not your parents' fault or society's fault or the fault of the citizen who left their door open because there's a nice draft outside. It's your fault. When do we start recognizing that?

True, the blame for crime should go solely on the perpetrator (although some of the examples listed here have no relationship to crime or "perpetrators" to solely blame). But this country isn't going to be safe just by assigning blame. Crime is going to continue without giving two figs for who anyone wants to assign blame to. People will always need to take responsibility for their personal security.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I used to see ads on TV telling people to lock their cars and take the keys with them. I agreed that was a good idea, if you want to avoid having your vehicle stolen. However, the ads said that, since many car thieves are minors, we should do so to in oder to "avoid helping a good kid go bad." I always figured that if the kid was out stealing cars, he had already gone bad.

 

[sr71plt]

I used to see ads on TV telling people to lock their cars and take the keys with them. I agreed that was a good idea, if you want to avoid having your vehicle stolen. However, the ads said that, since many car thieves are minors, we should do so to in oder to "avoid helping a good kid go bad." I always figured that if the kid was out stealing cars, he had already gone bad.

Well, let's see. We could blame the car manufacturers, or the parking authorities, or maybe Planned Parenthood for not having identified and erradicated the "bad seed." Oh, I know, let's blame the government. Yeah, that works.

 

[Boxlicker101]

It will happen when we stop coddling the damn trial lawyers. The lawyers push this attitude of which you speak. It's one of never admitting your culpability.

Well, let's face it. Any lawyers who admit their clients' guilt will be sued for malpractice.

Personally, I do blame the pepetrators of crimes. Even so, sometimes I chide victims for foolishly putting themselves at risk. If somebody parks a car on the street with the windows open and the key in the ignition, they have put themselves at risk. Children should not accept candy from strangers.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Yes, well, the internal "ethics" of the legal profession remind me of the kind of ethics prevalent in a religious cult. A very corrupt and avaricious cult.

 

[DeeZire]

Yes, well, the internal "ethics" of the legal profession remind me of the kind of ethics prevalent in a religious cult. A very corrupt and avaricious cult.

I see the ethics of the legal profession exactly the same way as I see the ethics of car dealers, or building contractors, or Countrywide loan officers, or HMOs, or anyone else who can make a buck by gaming the system. If you want to scapegoat lawyers, you have to scapegoat the whole capitalistic system, because all the lawyers are doing is working within the parameters proscribed by government - a government that sells legislation to the highest bidder - the ultimate in capitalism.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

I used to see ads on TV telling people to lock their cars and take the keys with them. I agreed that was a good idea, if you want to avoid having your vehicle stolen. However, the ads said that, since many car thieves are minors, we should do so to in oder to "avoid helping a good kid go bad." I always figured that if the kid was out stealing cars, he had already gone bad.

I used to see those ads, too.

Nowadays thieves steal locked cars with engine kill systems installed. Hell, sometimes they just strip it right there on the spot while you sleep...

 

[slyc_willie]

I used to see those ads, too.

Nowadays thieves steal locked cars with engine kill systems installed. Hell, sometimes they just strip it right there on the spot while you sleep...

Ever happen to you, or is that just an urban myth?

I don't see an end to the 'blame the victim' argument because, in at least some percentage of criminal cases, a crime could easily have been prevented if the victim had been more aware and, sadly, perhaps a bit more paranoid. It's a sad statement that our culture constantly argues for the necessity of actively protecting ourselves and our possessions from theft or destruction. But this is the world, and it's apparently not going to change.

The majority of Americans don't live in a mythical 'good neighbor' fantasy of Norman Rockwell paintings and Halloween nights in which sweet old Mrs. Jones handed out her famous hand-made pumpkin muffins. I won't argue that such places exist, but they are exceedingly rare. Sadly enough, such images of blissful Americana are relegated to the realm of the wonderful, yet seldomly-proved mythology that comprises the 'American Dream.'

Expecting anything more than that is a function of our own self-disillusionment.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Ever happen to you, or is that just an urban myth?

Well since it hasn't happened to me, it must be an urban myth, right? Who wants to REALLY push that argument?

I don't see an end to the 'blame the victim' argument because, in at least some percentage of criminal cases, a crime could easily have been prevented if the victim had been more aware and, sadly, perhaps a bit more paranoid. It's a sad statement that our culture constantly argues for the necessity of actively protecting ourselves and our possessions from theft or destruction. But this is the world, and it's apparently not going to change.

The majority of Americans don't live in a mythical 'good neighbor' fantasy of Norman Rockwell paintings and Halloween nights in which sweet old Mrs. Jones handed out her famous hand-made pumpkin muffins. I won't argue that such places exist, but they are exceedingly rare. Sadly enough, such images of blissful Americana are relegated to the realm of the wonderful, yet seldomly-proved mythology that comprises the 'American Dream.'

Expecting anything more than that is a function of our own self-disillusionment.

The sad statement is that we're in an ever upward escalation of war between criminals and citizens.

20 years ago in 1988 you could put your name and address in a comic book to find a pen pal. Now in 2008 the war against stalkers has been completely lost, they can find out that home address - or, hell, whatever else they want about you and no amount of safeguarding can help you. Just ask Joe the Plumber if you think that's an urban myth.

We've let the bad guys go too far and spent too much time grilling and chastising the people they victimize and now America is more paranoid, less trusting, and the criminals still have us by the balls. It's the worst of all worlds.

 

[slyc_willie]

Well since it hasn't happened to me, it must be an urban myth, right? Who wants to REALLY push that argument?


The sad statement is that we're in an ever upward escalation of war between criminals and citizens.

20 years ago in 1988 you could put your name and address in a comic book to find a pen pal. Now in 2008 the war against stalkers has been completely lost, they can find out that home address - or, hell, whatever else they want about you and no amount of safeguarding can help you. Just ask Joe the Plumber if you think that's an urban myth.

We've let the bad guys go too far and spent too much time grilling and chastising the people they victimize and now America is more paranoid, less trusting, and the criminals still have us by the balls. It's the worst of all worlds.

I blame the Internet.

No, seriously. There is such an incredible amount of shared information up for grabs now, and it has become available under the auspices of a system that developed too fast and too efficiently for any kind of regulation to come onboard and regulate it.

20 years ago, if you sent a letter to a potential pen-pal found in the back of comic book, he or she had the option of refusing the correspondence with relative anonymity. And it would have been accepted. Not so, now. If you really want, you could track down databases and discover who is emailing from where and what their real name is, just so you can have the satisfaction of sending them another email saying, 'What the fuck, byotch?'

There is no acceptance of anonymity anymore. We (the US, and perhaps others) have somehow formed a society of selfish entitlement. No longer is respect or deference earned, it is assumed from the start and challenged when not given.

We have a society of children without the necessary parental smack on the ass to keep us in line.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Originally Posted by SEVERUSMAX
Yes, well, the internal "ethics" of the legal profession remind me of the kind of ethics prevalent in a religious cult. A very corrupt and avaricious cult.

I see the ethics of the legal profession exactly the same way as I see the ethics of car dealers, or building contractors, or Countrywide loan officers, or HMOs, or anyone else who can make a buck by gaming the system. If you want to scapegoat lawyers, you have to scapegoat the whole capitalistic system, because all the lawyers are doing is working within the parameters proscribed by government - a government that sells legislation to the highest bidder - the ultimate in capitalism.

Lawyers are probably not much less honest than the others you mention, but they can get away with more. The others are subject to government oversight, but the legal profession polices itself. (Yeah. Ha ha ha ha ha) Politicians are mostly lawyers, except that they are the most crooked of the legal profession.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

I blame the Internet.

No, seriously. There is such an incredible amount of shared information up for grabs now, and it has become available under the auspices of a system that developed too fast and too efficiently for any kind of regulation to come onboard and regulate it.

20 years ago, if you sent a letter to a potential pen-pal found in the back of comic book, he or she had the option of refusing the correspondence with relative anonymity. And it would have been accepted. Not so, now. If you really want, you could track down databases and discover who is emailing from where and what their real name is, just so you can have the satisfaction of sending them another email saying, 'What the fuck, byotch?'

There is no acceptance of anonymity anymore. We (the US, and perhaps others) have somehow formed a society of selfish entitlement. No longer is respect or deference earned, it is assumed from the start and challenged when not given.

We have a society of children without the necessary parental smack on the ass to keep us in line.

Well said, but there's also a perversion of anonymity.

People anonymously harass and stalk as well.

 

[DeeZire]

Lawyers are probably not much less honest than the others you mention, but they can get away with more. The others are subject to government oversight, but the legal profession polices itself. (Yeah. Ha ha ha ha ha) Politicians are mostly lawyers, except that they are the most crooked of the legal profession.

When you think about it, the industries with so-called 'government oversight' have been writing their own regulations via lobbyists, at least during the last eight years. So, to claim that other industries are subject to government oversight ignores the fact that the oversight is usually the kind typified by the three monkeys covering their eyes, ears, and mouths.

I also don't group all politicians into the 'crook' category. Many get into politics for altruistic reasons, and don't get corrupted until they place the retaining of their office above the retaining of their values.

So, to tie back into the tread, blaming lawyers for the victim culture is sort of like blaming the singer when she's performing a crappy song - it's not her fault, it's the songwriter's fault.

 

[SeaCat]

We'll get rid of the blame the victime culture as soon as we start teaching people to take responsibility for their actions and holding them to that responsibility.

Part of this is enforcing the laws on the books. Get rid of the damned Plea Deals, get rid of the blasted pleaing down.

Oh and while you're at it get rid of the idea that someone serving time is a "Real Man" or a "Real Woman". They are neither.

Now shall we talk about some of the other ills of society?

Cat

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Originally Posted by SEVERUSMAX
Yes, well, the internal "ethics" of the legal profession remind me of the kind of ethics prevalent in a religious cult. A very corrupt and avaricious cult.



Lawyers are probably not much less honest than the others you mention, but they can get away with more. The others are subject to government oversight, but the legal profession polices itself. (Yeah. Ha ha ha ha ha) Politicians are mostly lawyers, except that they are the most crooked of the legal profession.

Capitalism isn't the problem. It's the lack of basic standards and ground rules which for capitalism to function in good faith that's the problem. And lawyers love to bend what rules there are to their own benefit.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

When you think about it, the industries with so-called 'government oversight' have been writing their own regulations via lobbyists, at least during the last eight years. So, to claim that other industries are subject to government oversight ignores the fact that the oversight is usually the kind typified by the three monkeys covering their eyes, ears, and mouths.

I also don't group all politicians into the 'crook' category. Many get into politics for altruistic reasons, and don't get corrupted until they place the retaining of their office above the retaining of their values.

So, to tie back into the tread, blaming lawyers for the victim culture is sort of like blaming the singer when she's performing a crappy song - it's not her fault, it's the songwriter's fault.

Most of these guys don't realize what would happen if we curbed the trial lawyers.

They'd realize it once they're on trial for something they didn't do.

File it under, "we accept this problem to prevent a worse problem".

We'll get rid of the blame the victime culture as soon as we start teaching people to take responsibility for their actions and holding them to that responsibility.

Part of this is enforcing the laws on the books. Get rid of the damned Plea Deals, get rid of the blasted pleaing down.

Oh and while you're at it get rid of the idea that someone serving time is a "Real Man" or a "Real Woman". They are neither.

Well said!

Capitalism isn't the problem. It's the lack of basic standards and ground rules which for capitalism to function in good faith that's the problem. And lawyers love to bend what rules there are to their own benefit.

Not just lawyers... lobbyists, too.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeZire
When you think about it, the industries with so-called 'government oversight' have been writing their own regulations via lobbyists, at least during the last eight years. So, to claim that other industries are subject to government oversight ignores the fact that the oversight is usually the kind typified by the three monkeys covering their eyes, ears, and mouths.

I also don't group all politicians into the 'crook' category. Many get into politics for altruistic reasons, and don't get corrupted until they place the retaining of their office above the retaining of their values.

So, to tie back into the tread, blaming lawyers for the victim culture is sort of like blaming the singer when she's performing a crappy song - it's not her fault, it's the songwriter's fault.

Most of these guys don't realize what would happen if we curbed the trial lawyers.

They'd realize it once they're on trial for something they didn't do.

File it under, "we accept this problem to prevent a worse problem".

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaCat
We'll get rid of the blame the victime culture as soon as we start teaching people to take responsibility for their actions and holding them to that responsibility.

Part of this is enforcing the laws on the books. Get rid of the damned Plea Deals, get rid of the blasted pleaing down.

Oh and while you're at it get rid of the idea that someone serving time is a "Real Man" or a "Real Woman". They are neither.

Well said!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEVERUSMAX
Capitalism isn't the problem. It's the lack of basic standards and ground rules which for capitalism to function in good faith that's the problem. And lawyers love to bend what rules there are to their own benefit.

Not just lawyers... lobbyists, too.

Like cops, lawyers are a necessary evil, but they should be curbed, just as cops should. By that, I don't mean killed, although exterminating some of both groups might help too. By curbed, I mean stomping on lawyers by making them pay all court costs and all other expenses when bringing a bogus lawsuit. They just bring them to line their own pockets, and defendants usually pay off rather than go through the expense of a trial and the possibility of a sympathetic jury. If lawyers knew it might backfire and hit them where it hurts, they might knock it off.

I strongly believe that all politicians are crooks, but I define "politician" as a person who makes a career of it. This includes people like Nixon, JFK, LBJ, Obama, Biden, and others who make it their life's work. If they weren't crooks, they would do honest and productive Sometimes the crookedness takes the form of eniching themselves, and sometimes it is in the imposing of their wills on their fellow citizens.

Lawyers may not be responsible for the culture of victimhood, but they feed off it and nourish it, because it makes them rich.

I agree with Seacat that we should make people take responsibility for their own acts, and not blame potty training or a molestation or some other trauma many years ago. Since they can't be proven wrong, they are sometimes allowed to get away with it.

 

[AchtungNight]

We also need to get rid of guilt by association. There are people in this world who assume all members of certain races or religions or other human divisions are evil crooks just because a few are. This increases hate and it is not a good thing.

 

[Boxlicker101]

We also need to get rid of guilt by association. There are people in this world who assume all members of certain races or religions or other human divisions are evil crooks just because a few are. This increases hate and it is not a good thing.

You are absolutely right. The Democrats got away with doing just that during the recent election.

 

[Taharial]

You are absolutely right. The Democrats got away with doing just that during the recent election.

Really? When? Sources, please. I'll wait.

(of course, I realize this is more of your foundation-less bullshit)

 

[sr71plt]

You are absolutely right. The Democrats got away with doing just that during the recent election.

Oh? And in contrast to the Republican campaigners (and you, incidentally)?

 

[Guest]

You are absolutely right. The Democrats got away with doing just that during the recent election.

Jesus.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

You are absolutely right. The Democrats got away with doing just that during the recent election.

Who in the world can win a debate with you when you self destruct like this right at the opening bell?