how the market values what we do

[chefsuess]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[cantdog]

Stein assumes that becoming rich is the primary goal of his audience. He also apparently feels the same way, since he is evaluating everything in terms of whether or not it lines your pockets.

There are other ways of looking at this business of being a human being in the world.

 

[rgraham666]

Investment bankers and corporate lawyers do well, but they're leeches. They create nothing and live off the creativity and hard work of others.

I may not be rich, never will be. But I'm not sucking the life blood out of our economy.

 

[chefsuess]

why not engage him in debate?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Belegon]

'If you are old enough to have sex, you are old enough to start saving in a sensible way for your retirement'.

regardless of anything else, this part is damn good advice!

...and there are some here with ties to finance, just as there are some here with ties to retail, construction, homemaking, software engineering...

...we're an eclectic group...

 

[LadyJeanne]

Of course maybe the poetry forum here on Literotica is populated by wildly successful invest bankers and corporate lawyers who post here between deals. Do one or more of the female posters on this board rank among the highest-paid female CEO's in the 'real' world? May be, but I doubt it.

I'm not a CEO, but my annual income puts me in the top 5% or 10% of all US households. I write porn and poetry and post here in my spare time.

Stein is right in that the field you go into has a lot to say about how much money you can make over your lifetime. That is not the only factor to consider, however, when choosing a career. Intangibles, such as lifestyle, work-life balance, creative and intellectual interests, aptitude, and desire all play an important part in making those kinds of decisions.

 

[rgraham666]

So you think that capitalists and capitalist lackeys (investment bankers and corporate lawyers) do not work hard, and do not create wealth?

Maybe you're right. But restaurants don't get opened, houses and apartment buildings don't get built and factories don't open and operate (and hire), and consumers can't buy things, without credit and credit facilities.

I lived in the East Bloc. Before. I know something about the quality of life there without capitalists and capitalist lackeys. The not only were things shabby, but the state, which controlled all economic activity, dumped on the environment, too: environmentally destructive externalities are not unique to capitalism.

I don't think Stein was 'dissing' people who chose short-story writing or anthropology, etc. instead of investment banking, etc. (he even referred to the former types sometimes being more intelligent than the latter), but just saying that they had made the 'wrong' choice from the point of view of personal wealth creation. I personally prefer to live in a society where I can make a 'wrong' decision and be relatively poor, rather than a society where the state controls everything and tells me what to do.

So make your case that he's a leech and send it to him. Ben Stein might be up for the debate. I'd like to read it.


Best regards.

My biggest objection to your post is that neither investment bankers or lawyers are capitalists.

To me, capitalism is about product and risk. A capitalist invests capital; fiscal, intellectual and physical into a company to create products to sell on the market. This is risky. You never know what the market wants, and you can take a major bath if you guess wrong.

Neither of these things are going to happen to either investment bankers or lawyers. Unless the venture is a complete disaster they're going to get paid.

I'm not saying investment bankers and lawyers aren't handy, or even sometimes necessary. But I do think they are vastly overpaid for their utility. And they were around long before capitalism came into existence.

And have you worked for a large company lately? Of all the institutions in the West, these come closest to Eastern Bloc organization.

They have a centralised, hierarchical power structure. Usually a company ideology. Dress codes are enforced, correspondence is monitored and the company is full of stoolies waiting to denounce someone for not toeing the party line. A person with real initiative, intelligence and ethics will quickly be singled out and eliminated. They can't shoot you for breaking the rules, yet. But they're sure enough working on it.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

He's right that certain careers give more money, but the single-minded pursuit of money sickens me. Sorry to those who are doing it, but it's the truth. Throughout college, I was surrounded by mindless, soulless, willing-to-kill-you-for-a-penny hyper-competitive assholes who got into my field or my classes because this was "the next big money field" and even if it wasn't, it was a great kickstart into medical school. No one had a genuine love of the material, the classes got skewed in favor of the tests they had to take as part of there career path and so on. The only thing that kept me going was my intense ultra-psychotic love for the subject.

I may end up with less money at the end, but I love my work. I enjoy doing what I do and I can imagine doing my career path for the next 60 years without wanting to spend each morning gargling a gun barrel or wanting to. I won't need as many shiny gadgets to lend my life the illusion of merit and when I go home I'll have the energy to cook myself and my loved ones a good meal and I might even have flexible enough hours to *gasp* help take care of any kids I might have.

I think it's all a trade-off. Do you do what you love even though you might be struggling to pay the bills or do you accept the shackles for the illusion of getting the big-bucks knowing that the pursuit will weasalize and desoul you?

 

[cloudy]

He's right that certain careers give more money, but the single-minded pursuit of money sickens me. Sorry to those who are doing it, but it's the truth. Throughout college, I was surrounded by mindless, soulless, willing-to-kill-you-for-a-penny hyper-competitive assholes who got into my field or my classes because this was "the next big money field" and even if it wasn't, it was a great kickstart into medical school. No one had a genuine love of the material, the classes got skewed in favor of the tests they had to take as part of there career path and so on. The only thing that kept me going was my intense ultra-psychotic love for the subject.

I may end up with less money at the end, but I love my work. I enjoy doing what I do and I can imagine doing my career path for the next 60 years without wanting to spend each morning gargling a gun barrel or wanting to. I won't need as many shiny gadgets to lend my life the illusion of merit and when I go home I'll have the energy to cook myself and my loved ones a good meal and I might even have flexible enough hours to *gasp* help take care of any kids I might have.

I think it's all a trade-off. Do you do what you love even though you might be struggling to pay the bills or do you accept the shackles for the illusion of getting the big-bucks knowing that the pursuit will weasalize and desoul you?

Amen, Luc.

Money isn't everything....it really isn't even much, in the long run. I have plenty of material things. Am I happy? Not at all.

 

[LadyJeanne]

He's right that certain careers give more money, but the single-minded pursuit of money sickens me. Sorry to those who are doing it, but it's the truth. Throughout college, I was surrounded by mindless, soulless, willing-to-kill-you-for-a-penny hyper-competitive assholes who got into my field or my classes because this was "the next big money field" and even if it wasn't, it was a great kickstart into medical school. No one had a genuine love of the material, the classes got skewed in favor of the tests they had to take as part of there career path and so on. The only thing that kept me going was my intense ultra-psychotic love for the subject.

I may end up with less money at the end, but I love my work. I enjoy doing what I do and I can imagine doing my career path for the next 60 years without wanting to spend each morning gargling a gun barrel or wanting to. I won't need as many shiny gadgets to lend my life the illusion of merit and when I go home I'll have the energy to cook myself and my loved ones a good meal and I might even have flexible enough hours to *gasp* help take care of any kids I might have.

I think it's all a trade-off. Do you do what you love even though you might be struggling to pay the bills or do you accept the shackles for the illusion of getting the big-bucks knowing that the pursuit will weasalize and desoul you?

I agree with most of this. I do pursue money, though, for security. I'd like to think it hasn't weaselized me and desouled me.



*peeks under the covers and frantically searches for soul*

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I agree with most of this. I do pursue money, though, for security. I'd like to think it hasn't weaselized me and desouled me.



*peeks under the covers and frantically searches for soul*

Check your pants pocket in the laundry basket, that's where I usually leave mine.

Or better yet, check my pants pocket. You find out if you got desouled and you can rob it back at the same time.

 

[LadyJeanne]

Check your pants pocket in the laundry basket, that's where I usually leave mine.

Or better yet, check my pants pocket. You find out if you got desouled and you can rob it back at the same time.

Damn, I just did laundry! Guess my soul's been scrubbed clean now.



(Pay no attention to the hand in your pants. I'm just looking for my soul. Really, I am...hey, what's this? )

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Ben Stein used to write speeches for Richard Nixon.

I'd keep that in mind when considering his definition of 'success'.

--Zoot

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

It was almost inevitable, in this time of born-again corporate raiders, that a thread on the comparative remuneration of investment bankers and corporate lawyers would eventually get around to the de-souling and re-souling of individuals.

There is an almost obvious force of logic running behind it, if I could just identify what that was.

 

[JamesSD]

But I quote:

'... high earnings are largely a function of choosing the right field. Or, as Warren Buffet said in an annual report years ago, it is far better to be ordinary in a great business than to be great in a mediocre business. Over the years, I have seen it. Smart men and women in finance and corporate law always grow rich, or at least well-to-do. Incredibly smart men and women in short-story writing or anthropology or acting rarely do.' (emphasis added).

In terms of financial gain, he's spot on.

Corporate Lawyers and Financial analysts provide a valuable service, and are well compensated for it.

Of course, career choice isn't an either-or situation, rather a range of options. My own field falls somewhere in the middle. And being ok in a growth industry is far more valuable than being great in a shrinking one. Good advice.

 

[SeaCat]

In reading this thread, it's start and the following comments I am led to think about my own career choice and why I am in it. People like myself don't get into our career fields to get rich. We get into them to help others. I am a C.N.A. which is just about the lowest level of nursing you can be. I clean butts and turn people. I wipe noses and massage backs. I make $10.00 an hour to take care of your family members when they are sick and/or injured. I along with the Registered Nurses, (Who make from $20.00 to $25.00 an hour here in Southern Florida,) are the ones who are there at any time of day or night to save your life. We are more than willing to take care of you, comfort you, and even put up with your or your families abuse when you are scared or hurt. Now if you think that is a lot of money then think about this. We are under the microscope for every action we take. We are constantly under the threat of lawsuits. We are also constantly under the threat of contracting a new and wonderfull disease with every patient we take care of. Also in the area I live in the median price of a used house is around $390,000.00. Firefighters and Police are in the same boat. For the risks they take, the training they undergo, and the abuse they deal with on a daily basis they are not paid nearly enough. They don't do it for the money. We are there to help people.

Yes I could be making a hell of a lot more money than I am. I could be in Electronics, (in which I have a degree.) I could also be doing bodyguard work which pays considerably more than what I make now. I could be in corporate work making a bundle and feeling like crap about what I was doing. It's all a choice we all have to make. It's not always about the money.

Cat

(Now here in America I consider the sports figures to be the blood sucking leeches. They complain about making a mere couple of million dollars a year playing a kids game. Yes I do know it's our fault. We allow them to make these insane amounts of money by paying to watch them play.)

 

[R. Richard]

(Now here in America I consider the sports figures to be the blood sucking leeches. They complain about making a mere couple of million dollars a year playing a kids game. Yes I do know it's our fault. We allow them to make these insane amounts of money by paying to watch them play.)

SeaCat:
You hit a nerve with this comment. In 1993, the Cowboys and Giants were both 11-4. They met in the final game of the regular season. The winner of the game got the NFC East title, home-field advantage in the playoffs and a first-round bye. The loser got a wild-card game the following week.

Emmitt Smith separated his shoulder in the third quarter but, because the Cowboys had no other effective running back, he returned to the game, which went into overtime tied at 13. The Giants set up a pass defense, because they knew Emmitt was injured and would only be a decoy. With no choice, Emmitt carried the ball on nine of the Cowboys' 11 plays in the extra period. The Cowboy linemen had to pick Emmitt off the ground after each play, because he couldn't get up on his own. The Cowboys would call a pass play and then switch to Load Left with the Giants set in pass defense. Load Left called for Emmitt Smith to run to the left behind the huge Dallas offensive linemen and pick a hole to run through. Emmitt finished the drive by raising his aching shoulder to stiff-arm Lawrence Taylor on his final run, which set up Eddie Murray's game-winning field goal.

A badly injured Emmitt Smith finished with 229 total yards and a touchdown on 32 carries and 10 receptions, the heaviest workload in team history. Emmitt was then carried off the field on a stretcher and spent a couple of nights in a hospital.

It may look like a kid's game. But the NFL does not play like a kid's game.

Check out your NFL history.

 

[Sunnie]

-blink-

FUCK the market. I am here for the art, and the sex. Oh yeah, and the small-scale Internet fame.

But I do like the word "literaddicts."

 

[Belegon]

Sorry Seacat, but you hit a nerve of mine too...for every Barry Bonds there are dozens of kids who worked their ass off to fail. For some it was a hole in their swing they just couldn't fix, for some a lack of ability to handle the leather, for some an arm that was about to fall off.

I agree with the concept behind what you are saying; that those who are important in important times should be compensated thusly.

But the gladiators of our times can take a whole beaten down city and make it cry out in wonder and turn men who might otherwise hate each other into partners in a waltz on a streetcorner. And ther is a value in that as well.

Does that mean I like Terrell Owens and his attitude? Of course not. But there are people out there who return far less for their money than our professional athletes do...

 

[impressive]

Stein assumes that becoming rich is the primary goal of his audience.

Amen!

 

[LadyJeanne]

I saw this thread was still alive, so I searched for the speech so I could see the quote in context:

New York Times

His speech is to beginning freshman. He specifically chooses to address what he wishes he'd been told when he began college.

"But wouldn't it make sense for the good speakers to come just as school is starting? And might it make sense for them to talk not only about the great metaphysical and spiritual issues of life, but also about what makes up so much of life: the material?"

He talks about roommates, learning to work and think, connections, investment for retirement, and thrift. Here's the paragraph that follows the one posted in this thread:

"Of course, not everyone wants to work in finance or law. Those are tense, difficult fields with combative people in them. But they do yield immense material benefits, will not be outsourced (my spelling checker does not recognize this word - how times change) anytime soon and are likely to offer a decent retirement. Work at what you like, for sure. But go in knowing that certain fields pay much better than others."

After having read the speech, I don't think he made assumptions about whether the students wanted to get rich. I think he assumed that a lot of freshmen haven't had much instruction in some very practical basics. He's telling them something he wishes he had known and understood sooner, so that they might consider that as they make their choices going forward.

"I suppose that there is more. But how I wish someone had started me a lot earlier on the path to understanding the material world."

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

All througout my life, I have been forced to listen to similar paeans praising the grit and determination of sports heros overcoming the terrors of public failure and humiliation, as well as the pain and suffering which they routinely undergo, to bring a vicarious feeling of self-worth to the followers of their team.

And they do all this for a few measly million dollars a year — how noble of them!

I would much prefer to belong to a society that appreciates more the overcoming of real terrors, the necessary pain and suffering routinely faced by emergency personnel — ER staff, firefighters, cops, even National Guardsmen — who face this opposition, not for public adulation and a few score million, but to make their contribution to society by protecting the lives and property of their fellow citizens.

I would not think it amiss if much of the excessive remuneration of sports figures were diverted from those make-believe heros, and spread around amongst the real heros in our society.

 

[cantdog]

VB, you are always there. Not quite in the right place, but just to one side of it, herding us to it by throwing rocks. Makes me wanna kiss you.

My family have always gravitated toward "dedicated dope" jobs. None of them pay anything; that's the "dope" part. You'd have to be an idiot to work that hard for nearly nothing. But the jobs are important. They need to be done, without fail, and they need to be done well. Teachers, for instance. Firefighters. Anyone can fill out the list in a few minutes' thought about it. Cat knows what I mean.

I'm not sure it makes them heroes. I think not, really. But then, I use a different standard for heroes.

Hack

 

[SeaCat]

VB, you are always there. Not quite in the right place, but just to one side of it, herding us to it by throwing rocks. Makes me wanna kiss you.

My family have always gravitated toward "dedicated dope" jobs. None of them pay anything; that's the "dope" part. You'd have to be an idiot to work that hard for nearly nothing. But the jobs are important. They need to be done, without fail, and they need to be done well. Teachers, for instance. Firefighters. Anyone can fill out the list in a few minutes' thought about it. Cat knows what I mean.

I'm not sure it makes them heroes. I think not, really. But then, I use a different standard for heroes.

Hack

Cant,


You would have loved one of my Captains. One of his favorite quotes was; " I don't want to be no damned hero. All a hero is is a dead asshole."

There are a lot of people out there who just keep on plugging away at their jobs because it's what they know and enjoy. They aren't heros, just everyday Joes like us who happen to be in the right place at the right time. God Bless them.

Cat

 

[LadyJeanne]

Cant,


You would have loved one of my Captains. One of his favorite quotes was; " I don't want to be no damned hero. All a hero is is a dead asshole."

There are a lot of people out there who just keep on plugging away at their jobs because it's what they know and enjoy. They aren't heros, just everyday Joes like us who happen to be in the right place at the right time. God Bless them.

Cat

There are a lot of those people working around the Gulf Coast right now.