How much sex is too much...?

[Vermilion]

Hah - Sorry to do you out of a whinge, Charley, but this is actually a writing thread...

At what point does a straight novel become erotic? How many sex scenes?

*How* much is *too* much?

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[TheeGoatPig]

I think it depends on how graphic the sex scenes are. I don't read romantic novels, but I would imagine they aren't as steamy as what we write for Lit. My guess is they are softcore to our hardcore?

Other than that, I would have to say that it becomes porn when there is more sex than plot (not on a word count, this is more of a judgement call than anything else).

 

[neonlyte]

Hah - Sorry to do you out of a whinge, Charley, but this is actually a writing thread...

At what point does a straight novel become erotic? How many sex scenes?

*How* much is *too* much?

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Interesting question.

I tend to write in more sex than I perceive as acceptable for main stream publishing, then edit it out. However... bought any books lately? Particularly 'award winners/nominations' - the amount of explicit sex is increasing. I quoted a line from Miss Smilla's Feeling for Snow yesterday (on page 2 of AH), the line is more explicit than almost anything I've read on Lit.
'On Beauty' by Zadie Smith indicates a professor receiving a blow job. Zoe Heller's book Notes on a Scandal enters ground Literotica wouldn't dare publish, underage sex.

My sex edited draft of a new novel caused my wife to ask, 'What the hell happened between Philip and Sophia? Why did you edit it out?" I think I'm being too cautious.

 

[3113]

Depends on the Story

It depends on the story.

"Gravity's Rainbow" has some hardcore, kinky sex scenes. And I think there was a lot of debate about giving it the award it got because of them. They do read like porn. But there's a lot inbetween them as well, and they are relevant.

But if the story is not trying to be so liteary, if it's trying to tell it's story, then yeah, there can be too much sex, IMHO. And you know there's too much sex when it becomes a combination of lovingly detail sex combined with repetitive sex. The people are interesting and fun, but after that first amazing sex scene, the decide to have sex again in the shower. Then sex again in the car on their way to dinner, they masterbate each other under the table, then go home for more sex....and each one of these scenes if pages long!

There are mainstream novels like this. But they're rarer simply because editors catch them and say, "Give us more story."

 

[vampiredust]

this is a hard question to answer, esp when you think about novels such as Tropic of Cancer, which could be classified as porn

I'm not sure. Literary critics would argue that it depends on genre but there are some novels which intermix genres, blurring the lines

A possible yardstick could be the amount of sexual content, but even this is blurry

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Hah - Sorry to do you out of a whinge, Charley, but this is actually a writing thread...

At what point does a straight novel become erotic? How many sex scenes?

*How* much is *too* much?

x
V

I don't know the answer...I have found my writing becoming less and less erotic, instead I find myself concentrating more on the story and the characters....

My last chapter for Montana Summer was 6 Lit pages, and one fairly short sex scene....

 

[scriptordelecto]

I think it becomes too much when it gets in the way of the story, or is placed in such a way that it interrupts the flow. If the reader finds themselves skipping the sex to get to the GOOD parts, then it's out of place.

 

[rgraham666]

There's too much sex if it adds nothing to the story. The sex resolves no plot points, adds nothing to the characters, could be taken out without damaging the story.

It's the equivalent of a car chase in a TV show. You can often see where the scriptwriters ran out of ideas, so they put in a car chase. Fills five minutes of airtime between commercials.

Makes for really boring TV as well.

 

[partyfairy]

I got told by a publisher once that the difference between romance and erotica is:

romance leaves the couple in question a the bedroom door...they close it, end of chapter, cut to following moring.
Erotica you get to follow them in and join in the fun!


Don't know if this helps...I don't read alot of romance stuff, if I am reading a book it is eaither for uni, (Yawn), or erotica..:S

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[Vermilion]

I got told by a publisher once that the difference between romance and erotica is:

romance leaves the couple in question a the bedroom door...they close it, end of chapter, cut to following moring.
Erotica you get to follow them in and join in the fun!


Don't know if this helps...I don't read alot of romance stuff, if I am reading a book it is eaither for uni, (Yawn), or erotica..:S

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pf

See - that's the thing. I've read books that were pretty mainstream romance things which followed the couple in... Didn't always do a brilliant job of it. I mean, if you're going to describe a fuck, might as well do it *properly* and not get all prudish at the last minute, but that's why I asked.

Wonder if it's the editors pushing for more sex to make it sell or the author trying to compete with the romantic side of the erotica market <shrugs>

S'why I asked y'all...
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[scriptordelecto]

See - that's the thing. I've read books that were pretty mainstream romance things which followed the couple in... Didn't always do a brilliant job of it. I mean, if you're going to describe a fuck, might as well do it *properly* and not get all prudish at the last minute, but that's why I asked.

Wonder if it's the editors pushing for more sex to make it sell or the author trying to compete with the romantic side of the erotica market <shrugs>

S'why I asked y'all...
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There are a few authors out there that manage to do a decent job. One of my favorites is Christine Feehan. She combines action, suspense, romance, and erotica in a finely woven web that makes each part just as essential as the next.

She is technically classified as romance, but she gets more explicit than some of her contemporaries and as a result, keeps me buying her books.

 

[Vermilion]

There are a few authors out there that manage to do a decent job. One of my favorites is Christine Feehan. She combines action, suspense, romance, and erotica in a finely woven web that makes each part just as essential as the next.

She is technically classified as romance, but she gets more explicit than some of her contemporaries and as a result, keeps me buying her books.

Sounds good.
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[Stella_Omega]

I got told by a publisher once that the difference between romance and erotica is:

romance leaves the couple in question a the bedroom door...they close it, end of chapter, cut to following moring.
Erotica you get to follow them in and join in the fun!


Don't know if this helps...I don't read alot of romance stuff, if I am reading a book it is eaither for uni, (Yawn), or erotica..:S

xx
pf

That's not as true any longer as it once was, there's a pretty big market for more explicit- even very explicit- Romance these days. I would guess that's the biggest genre in erotica actually. the yearning and frustration that makes up a Romance plot goes quite nicely with sexual tension etc.
I love what scriptordelecto and Rob both said;

There's too much sex if it adds nothing to the story. The sex resolves no plot points, adds nothing to the characters, could be taken out without damaging the story.

It's the equivalent of a car chase in a TV show. You can often see where the scriptwriters ran out of ideas, so they put in a car chase. Fills five minutes of airtime between commercials.

Makes for really boring TV as well.

I think it becomes too much when it gets in the way of the story, or is placed in such a way that it interrupts the flow. If the reader finds themselves skipping the sex to get to the GOOD parts, then it's out of place.

3113's example of "Gravity's Rainbow" brings up something I've been thinking about. She says it has hardcore kinky scenes and it does- but as I recall, Pynchon describes the scene, but not the action. For instance in one place two men are sharing a local woman. Pynchon makes it clear that one of the guys is in her arse and the other in her mouth, and there is a joke about the respective nationalities of the participants. Is that porn? It isn't exactly erotic, at least not to me (literal bitch, me)

 

[scriptordelecto]

3113's example of "Gravity's Rainbow" brings up something I've been thinking about. She says it has hardcore kinky scenes and it does- but as I recall, Pynchon describes the scene, but not the action. For instance in one place two men are sharing a local woman. Pynchon makes it clear that one of the guys is in her arse and the other in her mouth, and there is a joke about the respective nationalities of the participants. Is that porn? It isn't exactly erotic, at least not to me (literal bitch, me)

Not at all! I agree entirely. If there's no plot, then it's the equivalent of reallly cheap porn, and I thinks there's a HUGE difference between porn and erotica. Being the emotional and soppy romantic that I am, I need the buildup to make it real. It's not the body or the act that gets me going, it's the look in the eyes, or the change in the tone of the voice.

 

[Liar]

Wen is it romance, erotica, smut, porn, something else? Does it have to do with the amount of sex scenes? The length of them? The detail of description? Somewhat, yes. But I think the main factor is intention. There are "serious" novels with as much detailed graphic decription of sex acts as in porn stories. And there are porn stories that stays away from the peg and the slot closeups. What differs them then? If they're created for the reader to get off to, then it's porn. If the sex is there for other reasons than pure wankability, it's not.

 

[Vermilion]

Wen is it romance, erotica, smut, porn, something else? Does it have to do with the amount of sex scenes? The length of them? The detail of description? Somewhat, yes. But I think the main factor is intention. There are "serious" novels with as much detailed graphic decription of sex acts as in porn stories. And there are porn stories that stays away from the peg and the slot closeups. What differs them then? If they're created for the reader to get off to, then it's porn. If the sex is there for other reasons than pure wankability, it's not.

dammit. Guess that means anything I write is going to be porn, then, however beautifully plotted. If I write sex, or even a kiss or holding hands, then I write it to turn the reader on... it's how I appeal to their senses as well as their mind.

Heck - I've written some food descriptions that are, by your reckoning, essentially porn.

Oh well, I'll just have to resign myself then...
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[Liar]

dammit. Guess that means anything I write is going to be porn, then, however beautifully plotted. If I write sex, or even a kiss or holding hands, then I write it to turn the reader on... it's how I appeal to their senses as well as their mind.

Heck - I've written some food descriptions that are, by your reckoning, essentially porn.

Nah, they're probably erotic in nature, but not porn.

Writing to turn the reader on doesn't have to be porn.
Writing to get the reader off, is porn.

Unless you write food descriptions with the primary purpose that you want people to masturbate to it, I think you're in the non-porn category.

 

[Stella_Omega]

...There are "serious" novels with as much detailed graphic decription of sex acts as in porn stories....

Name one or two, would you? I admit I haven't been reading much contemporary fiction as I ought, but the books that have been recommended to me as excellent erotic novels have mostly fallen flat for me. Who writes sexy?

 

[Vermilion]

Unless you write food descriptions with the primary purpose that you want people to masturbate to it

Well *I* do... but that's a story for another day...<blush>
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[Liar]

Name one or two, would you? I admit I haven't been reading much contemporary fiction as I ought, but the books that have been recommended to me as excellent erotic novels have mostly fallen flat for me. Who writes sexy?

The ones I have come across that writes porn-esque haven't been very sexy per se. And that's not what I meant. Just that the detailed graphicness of how they describe sex is similar to that in much porn. But the intention there wasn't to excite, and in that context, it didn't.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The ones I have come across that writes porn-esque haven't been very sexy per se. And that's not what I meant. Just that the detailed graphicness of how they describe sex is similar to that in much porn. But the intention there wasn't to excite, and in that context, it didn't.

I think as a writer, I go at it from the other direction; I aim to excite first of all. Then I wrap a plot around that, slip my message in alongside the tongue, make my conflicts hedonistic ones....

I'm a pornographer, plain and simple

 

[scriptordelecto]

I think as a writer, I go at it from the other direction; I aim to excite first of all. Then I wrap a plot around that, slip my message in alongside the tongue, make my conflicts hedonistic ones....

I'm a pornographer, plain and simple

Nothin' wrong with that!

 

[Frank Noir]

I think as a writer, I go at it from the other direction; I aim to excite first of all. Then I wrap a plot around that, slip my message in alongside the tongue, make my conflicts hedonistic ones....

I'm a pornographer, plain and simple

Me, too. The point of my stories is the sex.

I only work in characterization and plot because it makes the sex better...

 

[Vermilion]

Me, too. The point of my stories is the sex.

I only work in characterization and plot because it makes the sex better...

I think I may be the same...
I was vaguely thinking of doing a straight novel, but I'm not sure I can write without the goal of each scene being sex...
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[drksideofthemoon]

Me, too. The point of my stories is the sex.

I only work in characterization and plot because it makes the sex better...

The plot is the point of my stories. The sex, when it does happen, is just a small part of the story...