How fucked up is it....

[SnoopDog]

..... to take children hostage.

One really needs all his concentration and strength to prevent from throwing up all the time.

Snoopy,

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I was going to start a thread about it before, but just couldn't. The whole thing is making me desperately anxious, mostly because I see no way out of it.

I mean, usually one would have an opinion on how most any situation could be handled: negotiate, attack, infiltrate... but this, I'm just paralysed. Every way you look at it, whatever you do, the outcome is an unprecedented bloodbath.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

It is fucked up beyond belief. Almost too upsetting to even think about.

What do they think they're going to gain by this, aside from proving to the world that they're subhuman monsters who deserve to be hunting down and tortured to death?

---dr.M.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

It is fucked up beyond belief. Almost too upsetting to even think about.

What do they think they're going to gain by this, aside from proving to the world that they're subhuman monsters who deserve to be hunting down and tortured to death?

---dr.M.

Exactly what they have gained Doc, the attention of the world. Terrorists are becoming much like television executives. It seems to me they are all striving to one up each other. Chechnean rebels have been wageing a gurilla war for several years, but they were burried on the back pages till they took over that Moscow theatre.

It's very hard for them to compete in the crowded terrorist market now. You have Palestinains blowing themselves up on busses and in shopping malls. Islamic militias in Chad killing on a grand scale. Iraq insurgents, beheading people and showing it live on the internet. Further Aq and the PAL's have their own network, Al jezzera, to make sure they get plenty of television time while the rebels in Chechneya have to be super barbaric and audacious to even get a brief mention on Russian state television.

Terrorism only works if you scare folks. If your latest martyrdom action lands on page 5-C of the local papers, it isn't scaring many people. Two planes go down on the same day and the best coverage I have seen so far only notes they are possibly to likely related to terrorist attacks. Take a school hostage and the whole world is suddenly watching.

The most troubling aspect of it all is the question it begs. If they had to stoop to this to get through this time, what is the next big thing for terrorists?

-Colly

 

[Guest]

Terrorists are becoming much like television executives.

Colly, you make sense; this statement is horribly chilling.

Perdita

 

[SensualCealy]

You know what pisses me off about this, its the fact that the parents of the kids likely have no way of getting what the kidnappers want.

The politions really dont care about joe- nobody, they send in the officers to handle it and then deal with it after saying they did the best they could.

Too bad the nut cases couldnt figure that out on their own.
Cealy

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Colly, you make sense; this statement is horribly chilling.

Perdita

I think it's even more scary the other way around.

 

[millennium_bard]

It is actions such as this that make me agree with some of the soldiers who went to Afghanistan when they said that they weren't going to bother taking known terrorists prisoner.

A simple bullet to the head and you KNOW that that particular terrorist is not going to be freed on a legal technicality at a trial, or bargained free by political expediency.

How many times in the past have we all seen known and admitted terrorists set free because it was more convenient for the administration in power at the time.

The ones who bombed that airliner over Lockerbie.
The ones who took over the cruise ship Achille Lauro.
Even that two faced rat Yassir Arafat.

Taking over a school full of kids is about as low as you can get.
And does anyone really believe that the terrorists will let the kids free at the end of all this?
To a terrorist, it would be just an exclamation point to the whole episode to slaughter all of the children and suicide themselves.

Sorry for the rant folks. But I have no use at all for terrorists, and absolutely no mercy toward those who would offer harm to children, especially in the name of some damn plitical agenda.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I see that they did release 31 of the hostages, mostly babies and toddlers.
It's still appalling.

Are these the same militants that took over the movie theatre?

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I see that they did release 31 of the hostages, mostly babies and toddlers.
It's still appalling.

Are these the same militants that took over the movie theatre?

Last time I looked, no one had yet claimed responsibility, but due to location and recent history the Chechans are the most likely group.

-Colly

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Last time I looked, no one had yet claimed responsibility, but due to location and recent history the Chechans are the most likely group.

-Colly

Thanks C.

 

[Guest]

They are chechen women who had lost their husbands, brothers, children in the conflict.

This can't get lower.

Or, you can vote for George.

P.S.
The West needs Russian support, so they ain't gonna say anything about the brutalisty of Russian solders (worse than Americans').

 

[Liar]

They demand that Russian troops withdraw from Chechenia, but there are no indications that it's the same specific group as in Moscow.

One thing that scares me about this is that the autorities might decide to solve this the same way that they did in Moscow, where they broke a few eggs to make their omelette, actually killing a fair number of the hostages themselves, to end the hostage situation.

Fuck.

#L

 

[ABSTRUSE]

They demand that Russian troops withdraw from Chechenia, but there are no indications that it's the same specific group as in Moscow.

One thing that scares me about this is that the autorities might decide to solve this the same way that they did in Moscow, where they broke a few eggs to make their omelette, actually killing a fair number of the hostages themselves, to end the hostage situation.

Fuck.

#L

That went through my mind also, perhaps the fact that there are children involved it will be handled better.
From what I understand, the gas they used at the theatre was an incorrect dosage.

 

[Guest]

That went through my mind also, perhaps the fact that there are children involved it will be handled better.
By Putin? The guy likes his strong-leader image!
From what I understand, the gas they used at the theatre was an incorrect dosage.
That operation was kosher until the special op guys realised there weren't enough ambulances for the rescued hostages!

 

[Lauren Hynde]

By Putin? The guy likes his strong-leader image!

That operation was kosher until the special op guys realised there weren't enough ambulances for the rescued hostages!

The problem is that this time, any gas strong enough to quickly take out an adult, will be deadly to weak, thirsty, underfed children.

Colly is right about one thing: The rebels in Chechneya have to be super barbaric and audacious to even get a brief mention, either on a heavily state-controlled Russian television or on the out-of-sight-out-of-mind rest of the world.

Up until yesterday, the Russian authorities were still blaming the two planes that crashed a few days ago and killed 180 people on some freak coincidence.

 

[Black Tulip]

I agree with all previous posters. There is some other horrible aspect however.

The "rebels" are part of a minority who wants to establish a muslim state in Chechenya.
I know because I had two girls from the country in my classes last year. Refugees since they were muslim but not fanatical enough.

It's not even a whole nation rebelling against the Russian government. So what does Putin care?

Very sick and very troubling.

 

[Guest]

I've got no words to add to what has already been said.

I'm just desperately hoping this turns out ok. But the realist in me is very worried for those poor little ones.

Lou

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Like most actions of this type, the possibility of it working out well for the hostages is remote. There is little room for negotiation as the terrorist's demands are unreasonable. They knew this going in and were prepared for the eventuality that they would have to kill the hostages and themselves. The Russian government has very little option, they aren't about to give into the terrorist's demands, nor will they sit idly by while hostages are killed.

As soon as the terrorists kill a hostage, there will be military action to end it. The simple, but hard to argue with logic here is that once they kill, any hostages killed in the breaking of the stalemate would have died anyway eventually and thus the ones you save are all that matters.

-Colly

 

[Teenage Venus]

It is extremely sad and sick - one more reason I condemn the evils of 'religion'..

The idiots can not see that any sympathy for their cause evaporates with actions like this.

I'm NOT religious but pray that if there IS a God S/He thinks of those children.

 

[millennium_bard]

Under the old Soviet regime, the Spetsnaz or special forces of the Red Army were trained to be ruthless and very effective in countering insurgents, (basically anyone who disagreed with communism) and were known to take out innocents casually, as long as they got the people that they were sent after.

A lot of the people in charge of counterterrorism in the modern Russia are former Spetsnaz, and they bring the same old attitudes with them.

You have to remember, their culture is not the same as ours, and in some ways is as alien to western ways of thinking as a martians would be.

I have no doubt that if the hostage takers force the hand of the the military/police that there will be an immediate and ferocious reprisal..

Historically, the Russians have been prone to overkill in their reactions, sort of like swatting a fly with a sledgehammer.
No finesse, just straight on brute force until something gives way, and to hell with anyone who gets caught in the way.

 

[rgraham666]

I am only saddened by this. But not shocked or horrified.

By this time tomorrow, 6,000 people will have died in all the niggling, stupid little conflicts that are occurring all over the world. That has been the body count every day since the end of WWII.

We usually aren't aware of this, and when we are it mostly fell into the category of 5,000 Brown People Dead Somewhere' as that headline in The Onion put it.

I don't know the solution. I'm not sure there is a solution. Like crime, terrorism can only be fought by removing it's causes. And that will only bring it down to a dull roar.

It is, unfortunately, something we're going to have to learn to live with

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

... it mostly fell into the category of 5,000 Brown People Dead Somewhere' ... I don't know the solution....

2 Americans Among 5,000 Brown People Dead Somewhere'

That won't bring it closer to a solution, but it will get more notice.

 

[Guest]

... You have to remember, their culture is not the same as ours, and in some ways is as alien to western ways of thinking as a martians would be.
...
Historically, the Russians have been prone to overkill in their reactions, sort of like swatting a fly with a sledgehammer.
No finesse, just straight on brute force until something gives way, and to hell with anyone who gets caught in the way.

You make an interesting point, mbard. I've read tsarist history, and the peculiarly 'old russe' brute force even shaped individual tsars (Peter the Great for one who as a boy witnessed a boyars' (knights) massacre of family members).

Russian history is among the saddest I've ever read.

Perdita

 

[Teenage Venus]

Russian history is among the saddest I've ever read.

And Modern US History is heading that way too - unless the commonfolk rebel.

Once again the US 'powers that be' are 'selective' in who they condemn/ignore/support. (Not that I would support THAT particular cause now.) If the US had used their influence to 'intervene' three years ago, chances are those kids would not be in such a situation. (But 'if's, and 'if only's' are part of the past. We should learn from them, and progress.)