How do you understand "point of view?"

[AG31]

I was surprised to see several top level Google hits equate POV with "person." That is 1st person, 2nd person, 3rd person. I always understood it to mean the character from whose point of view the story is being told. Most commonly in the 3rd person voice. "Jeremy felt bad about the robbery." Jeremy's point of view. Third person narrative.

If POV and "person" are the same, how do you talk about which character's point of view is guiding the story?

 

[samhasstories]

Your point of view - first, second, third person - describes who the point of view character is - "I" for first, "you" for second, him/her/they/whatever for third. So Jeremy's your point of view character in a third person limited narration.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

She said that certain facts are accessible only from one point of view – the point of view of the creature who experiences them. You think she meant that the only shoes we can ever wear are our own. Meg can’t imagine what it’s like for you to be you, she can only imagine herself being you
Jay McInerney, Bright Lights, Big City

Second person.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Point of View for the story is 1st person, third person, and gag me with fucking spoon, second person. In third-person writing, the point of view of a paragraph is who you're looking at in the paragraph. Though you can look at two or more. When you're in their head, it's from that character's point of view.

1st person is always from the narrator's point of view. What he/she/they/them/ saw, heard, felt, understood.

 

[alohadave]

1st person perspective, character's POV.

 

[Zootonius]

My simple view is, if third person is good enough for Jane Austin, it's good enough for me.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Limited third person or close third person is when the narrator gets in close to one character's point of view, rather than be God-like. It can be done either exclusively, or getting close to more than one character on an alternating basis. The key is to clearly demarcate when the pov shifts, and don't do it too often. It can be just as intimate as first person.

 

[SimonDoom]

If POV and "person" are the same, how do you talk about which character's point of view is guiding the story?

In the example you've given, I think you would simply say that the story is told from Jeremy's point of view from the third person limited point of view. I think you can use "point of view" in two ways in this instance.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

In the example you've given, I think you would simply say that the story is told from Jeremy's point of view from the third person limited point of view. I think you can use "point of view" in two ways in this instance.

I think Simon's got it right. For example, GoT is written in third person, but the point of view shifts from chapter to chapter depending on who the MC is in that chapter. Could by Tyrian. Could be John Snow. Could be Aria. But the overriding voice is third person.

 

[intim8]

I was surprised to see several top level Google hits equate POV with "person." That is 1st person, 2nd person, 3rd person. I always understood it to mean the character from whose point of view the story is being told. Most commonly in the 3rd person voice. "Jeremy felt bad about the robbery." Jeremy's point of view. Third person narrative.

If POV and "person" are the same, how do you talk about which character's point of view is guiding the story?

I'll often refer to who's head the story or scene is in. In 3p, it can change from scene to scene or be only one person's head for the entire story. In 1p, you're stuck in one head the whole time, unless you resort to some "innovative" gimmick construction.

In 2p, the writing is in my head. Fuck that.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Let me get your opinions on something I'm working on. I have an epic fantasy novel I'm about 30K words into I've realized a problem as the entire thing is written in first person voice. That eliminates and world building or history that would add color and expanse to the story. I really, and I mean really, really, don't want to go back and rewrite, so what I'm considering is keeping my primary MC in first person so I get her wonder and naiveté and discovery. I mean, how would you react if an Orc, something you'd only read about in LoTR, grabbed you by the ankle and pulled you out from under a bush, right?
Her companions, though.. I'm considering writing chapters from their point of view in third person narrator voice sol I can do back story, and descriptive sections about the world.
I'm not saying it will be easy, or even that it's a good idea, and since we're discussing point of view and what I call voice(first person, third person, that other one that shall remain unnamed), I figured I'd just ask...

 

[alohadave]

Let me get your opinions on something I'm working on. I have an epic fantasy novel I'm about 30K words into I've realized a problem as the entire thing is written in first person voice. That eliminates and world building or history that would add color and expanse to the story. I really, and I mean really, really, don't want to go back and rewrite, so what I'm considering is keeping my primary MC in first person so I get her wonder and naiveté and discovery. I mean, how would you react if an Orc, something you'd only read about in LoTR, grabbed you by the ankle and pulled you out from under a bush, right?
Her companions, though.. I'm considering writing chapters from their point of view in third person narrator voice sol I can do back story, and descriptive sections about the world.
I'm not saying it will be easy, or even that it's a good idea, and since we're discussing point of view and what I call voice(first person, third person, that other one that shall remain unnamed), I figured I'd just ask...

You can mix 1st person with a 3rd omniscient narrator for background or historical info. There are books that do this, just don't mix the 1st and 3rd in the same scene, use a scene break.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Let me get your opinions on something I'm working on. I have an epic fantasy novel I'm about 30K words into I've realized a problem as the entire thing is written in first person voice. That eliminates and world building or history that would add color and expanse to the story. I really, and I mean really, really, don't want to go back and rewrite, so what I'm considering is keeping my primary MC in first person so I get her wonder and naiveté and discovery. I mean, how would you react if an Orc, something you'd only read about in LoTR, grabbed you by the ankle and pulled you out from under a bush, right?
Her companions, though.. I'm considering writing chapters from their point of view in third person narrator voice sol I can do back story, and descriptive sections about the world.
I'm not saying it will be easy, or even that it's a good idea, and since we're discussing point of view and what I call voice(first person, third person, that other one that shall remain unnamed), I figured I'd just ask...

1st person is definitely limiting. I don't think I've ever read a book that mixes the two like you are suggesting, I'm sure someone has tried it.
If you took the chapter approach that many books that change perspective take it could work.

 

[intim8]

keeping my primary MC in first person so I get her wonder and naiveté and discovery. I mean, how would you react if an Orc, something you'd only read about in LoTR, grabbed you by the ankle and pulled you out from under a bush, right?

I've seen this sort of comment a few times here, and I don't quite get it. If you're in a very close 3P, you can do all that. You can describe anything and everything going on in the character's head.

To me, the real difference in 3P and 1P, aside from not being able to get more than one POV character, is that 1P brings the reader a lot closer. There's a psychic distance between the reader and the character in 3P, which is sometimes what you want. It's like the reader is looking into the character's head. In 1P it feels like the reader is in the character's head.

In 3P the character(s) and the narrator are different voices. It allows descriptions of things the character himself might not be consciously thinking about. So long as the character could be aware of it, the narrator can describe it.

In 1P, the character is the narrator. You only get to know the things he specifically and consciously wants to tell you about. It serves very well for a more conversational tone, and it allows a sort of side commentary on the story that a separate narrator would not conveniently bring in, but if you want to describe, say, a room, or some history, you have to figure out how to justify the character specifically wanting to think about it.

 

[SimonDoom]

Let me get your opinions on something I'm working on. I have an epic fantasy novel I'm about 30K words into I've realized a problem as the entire thing is written in first person voice. That eliminates and world building or history that would add color and expanse to the story. I really, and I mean really, really, don't want to go back and rewrite, so what I'm considering is keeping my primary MC in first person so I get her wonder and naiveté and discovery. I mean, how would you react if an Orc, something you'd only read about in LoTR, grabbed you by the ankle and pulled you out from under a bush, right?
Her companions, though.. I'm considering writing chapters from their point of view in third person narrator voice sol I can do back story, and descriptive sections about the world.
I'm not saying it will be easy, or even that it's a good idea, and since we're discussing point of view and what I call voice(first person, third person, that other one that shall remain unnamed), I figured I'd just ask...

Charles Dickens alternated between first and third person POV in his novel Bleak House, and it worked, but it's highly unusual to do things this way. Unless expertly done, it's likely to be jarring. If you want to tell your story from different points of view, I'd recommend converting the whole thing to third person POV.

 

[SimonDoom]

I mean, how would you react if an Orc, something you'd only read about in LoTR, grabbed you by the ankle and pulled you out from under a bush, right?

Tolkien did exactly this in LOTR in third person POV. Most of the time he told the story from the POV of one of the Hobbits, but in third person POV.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Charles Dickens alternated between first and third person POV in his novel Bleak House, and it worked, but it's highly unusual to do things this way. Unless expertly done, it's likely to be jarring. If you want to tell your story from different points of view, I'd recommend converting the whole thing to third person POV.

Great, now I have to read Bleak House...thanks.

 

[SimonDoom]

Great, now I have to read Bleak House...thanks.

Be careful what you take on. It's a serious investment. Like 700 pages or more.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Charles Dickens alternated between first and third person POV in his novel Bleak House, and it worked, but it's highly unusual to do things this way. Unless expertly done, it's likely to be jarring. If you want to tell your story from different points of view, I'd recommend converting the whole thing to third person POV.

Sounds like I need to read Bleak House, too.

I have actually played with this in one of my short stories, so I know it can be done.
It was kind of fun and in the specific context worked pretty well. I won't explain any further, spoilers and all that.
Too Many Secrets if you're interested. Not my best work, but a nice story, and it did manage the all important little red H.

The main difference from what I'm considering, though, is, well, a 16K short story versus an epic fantasy novel. Complexity factor of what I'm talking about is insanely higher.

The difference between first and third person @intim8 describes is what I want to exploit. The intimacy with my heroine, and the descriptive power of third person in the other chapters. The reader will be able to see the big picture but MC will not. My hope is producing the feeling we all get when the girl in the horror movie decides to go down in the basement. We all know she's going to die a horrible death, but she doesn't have a clue. And then we get to experience her shock and surprise first hand as she experiences it. No worries, the heroine never dies in epic fantasy. Not in my universes, anyway...

 

[ronde]

In 1P, the character is the narrator. You only get to know the things he specifically and consciously wants to tell you about. It serves very well for a more conversational tone, and it allows a sort of side commentary on the story that a separate narrator would not conveniently bring in, but if you want to describe, say, a room, or some history, you have to figure out how to justify the character specifically wanting to think about it.

I would amend this statement to say in 1st person, the reader only knows what the 1st person wants to tell the reader, but also that everything the reader knows about the setting and the other characters is filtered through the personality of the 1st person narrator. In other words, the 1st person narrator is biased by his or her own ideas about how things should be. It's important to set up that 1st person so that the narration fits his or her personality.

As I was taught to write, 3rd person is an unbiased account of the scene and the character's thoughts, speech, and actions as seen through the eyes of an observer who is privy to the thoughts of each character.

Yes, I know there are different forms of 3rd person narration, and almost every time I read an explanation of one, that explanation is accompanied by a statement to the effect that, "it's difficult to do well". If it's difficult for a writer to do well, I can almost guarantee that most readers will have an equally difficult time understanding what the writer wrote. I'll stick to what I learned. It's worked for me for a lot of years.

 

[StillStunned]

In The Number of the Beast, Heinlein switches between first-person POVs for every chapter, between each of the four main characters. Each chapter begins with the POV character's name, and picks up the story where the previous chapter left off.

It's been 35 years since I read it, but I remember thinking it was an unnecessary gimmick that didn't really add anything to a story that wasn't really going anywhere anyway.

 

[AG31]

Charles Dickens alternated between first and third person POV

So, to answer my OP, you seem to be agreeing that "person" is the same as "point of view." If the story is written in 3rd person (omniscient narrator), but all human experience involves what we would call "the main character," how do we talk about the story being from the main character's point of view?

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

So, to answer my OP, you seem to be agreeing that "person" is the same as "point of view." If the story is written in 3rd person (omniscient narrator), but all human experience involves what we would call "the main character," how do we talk about the story being from the main character's point of view?

I personally look at the overall point of view as the 'voice' of the work. For simpler stories, that mirrors the characters point of view. For more complex stuff like GoT, the point of view changes with each chapter depending on the main character in that story line, but the overriding 'voice' is always third person.
This is just me and I'm sure not any kind of standard, but it helps me keep it clear in my head.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

"Third person omniscient is a point of view where the narrator knows all the thoughts, actions, and feelings of all characters. The author may move from character to character to show how each one contributes to the plot."

I am the deity for all of my stories. The characters think, do, and feel whatever I tell them to. Occasionally, I will let a character take the lead in telling the story, but not very often.

 

[Gamblnluck]

If POV and "person" are the same, how do you talk about which character's point of view is guiding the story?

I see what you are asking. You want to explain what different people are thinking at anyone time. In that case use 3rd person, the omniscient narrator. That is the limitation of using first person. He only knows what he is thinking. He shows others actions but cannot know their thoughts.
Some authors like to go back and forth between first person narratives. "He said": then "She said" Personally I generally do not like switching characters. ESPECIALLY if the POV switches often like every every few paragraphs. You will also see stories where the first half is first person, character #1 and then the second half Character #2. I don't care for them either. I generally downgrade a story for that alone.