How do we draw the line between normalization and condemnation?

[AG31]

I've had S & M fantasies my whole life, since pre-latency. I never felt guilty about this, although I did keep it perfectly private. I took a break from reading erotica when I was around thirty and resumed reading (and writing) it when I was 76. I was initially very puzzled at the BDSM "world." I couldn't help but think that the real life quest for love and trust between a dom/domme and submissive was not a good path to take for real life relationships. And I was troubled by the growing normalization of BDSM portrayed by events like a chaplaincy workshop on BDSM practises and the revelation that a candidate for a New York burrough office frequented BDSM clubs. But what did I know? I am a knee jerk liberal and never said anything in forums like this about my surreptitious judgementalism.

But a two page op-ed in the New York Times a week or so ago has sharpened my questions. It was a report of the growing practise of erotic choking among teenagers, and the problems it presents for people who are learning what sexual relations are all about. I won't repeat the points here, but I was left with the clear thought that I don't want BDSM/S&M normalized.

I'm a firm, un-ambiguous supporter of the idea that one can't and shouldn't be asked to control one's fantasies. I don't think of the existence of Literotica.com as normalizing non-vanilla sex, but I'm not sure how to articulate why, beyond the fact that no one is advertising it in the newspaper or cable TV. You have to seek it out.

But I also think we need to provide limits to the models we present to our children about what a healthy sex life in action is all about.

What I don't know is how to put these thoughts into practise. I want Lit to be as open to peoples's imagination as possible. But I don't want dark erotica to be normalized as a thing to teach in school.

Any thoughts about how society should manage these things?

 

[AchtungNight]

I’ll be honest with you- I don’t have S&M fantasies and I’m not interested in them becoming mainstream for all the same reasons you are. If people can practice BDSM with mindfulness and awareness of circumstances, feelings, safe words, etc- great, it’s fine to indulge in it. But I don’t consider it right for me or most people, especially the sexually inexperienced. The only times I’ve featured BDSM in my stories was light spanking between two women just playing around (Rekindled) and between two individuals of godlike power who are psychologically damaged, live extremely violent lives, and would be into such things per my judgment (the God of War story). I’m more interested in everyday erotic couplings between men and women, not kinky stuff. If it’s your thing, fine. But understand it’s not mine. Do it responsibly with like-minded people, good luck.

Is that the current status quo?

 

[AwkwardMD]

There's no such thing as sane and safe breath play, which is a thing people would know if spreading healthy, sex-positive information was the same thing as normalization. Normalization is just the thing that happens when enough people pull their heads out of their asses to realize that everyone else likes it too.

Suppressing and marginalizing information is not good. Information should be democratic, and you only get good information when it's not a serious taboo to discuss them.

 

[THBGato]

I have nothing useful to add to this discussion, but I simply want to applaud the fact that this is being raised and discussed.

 

[lustychimera]

To me, the S&M, the physical acts of hurting someone-- even to the extreme--are the least corruptible parts of BDSM. They're just physical sensations and many people can be trained to feel pleasure from pain.

Of course, there are some very dangerous acts, as you pointed out, which is why it's so important to have easy access to educational resources that aren't just "don't do it"'-- because the people that are going to do it are going to do it, and if the resource's answer to everything dangerous is just "don't do it," is a useless resource.

The difference between Erowid and WebMD. WebMD's the butt of jokes. Erowid is where you actually find info when you want to try something new.

But in the end, either someone enjoys it or they don't. There's little gray area.

I couldn't help but think that the real life quest for love and trust between a dom/domme and submissive was not a good path to take for real life relationships.

This seems to me the most dubious part of the life, the mental power dynamics.

And it's hard to just ask someone how they managed it because when a relationship turns abusive, the victim typically doesn't even realize how fucked things are. Sometimes, neither does the abuser. It creeps up.

It would take a very special Dom to manage this long term with a ton of frequent outsider perspective to keep the emotional abuse as pretend--because that line is so thin.

I hate the "they're consenting adults, let them do what they want" morality because it completely disregards emotional abuse

 

[MillieDynamite]

Breath play, mummification, and knife play are about the most dangerous aspects of a BDSM lifestyle. So very, very many ways things can go wrong on all three of them.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

We're writing fiction. We're not normalizing anything.

Hiding something dangerous under the rug only makes it more dangerous. Art imitates life. On one level society expects it to. On another it censors and blocks art. Then when art is not allowed to tell the truth it can only lie. Censorship is terribly foolish.

As for kids and sex, I'm not going to discuss that here and risk breaking any rules, other than to say that I respect parents' choices and abilities to handle that with their own kids themselves.

 

[MillieDynamite]

If I ever use breath play or either of the other two dangerous play scenes, I'd probably have something bad happen, not as a warning (though it is) but for the dramatic effect that comes from that. BDSM isn't acceptable in society...people have to be discreet. Hard to be discreet when someone has an emergency in bondage play.

EDIT: "Officer, she wanted to be wrapped very tightly in saran wrap. We didn't realize she couldn't breathe." "The blue tent to her skin wasn't a clue?" "No, not really...um."

 

[Britva415]

I've had S & M fantasies my whole life, since pre-latency. I never felt guilty about this, although I did keep it perfectly private. I took a break from reading erotica when I was around thirty and resumed reading (and writing) it when I was 76. I was initially very puzzled at the BDSM "world." I couldn't help but think that the real life quest for love and trust between a dom/domme and submissive was not a good path to take for real life relationships. And I was troubled by the growing normalization of BDSM portrayed by events like a chaplaincy workshop on BDSM practises and the revelation that a candidate for a New York burrough office frequented BDSM clubs. But what did I know? I am a knee jerk liberal and never said anything in forums like this about my surreptitious judgementalism.

But a two page op-ed in the New York Times a week or so ago has sharpened my questions. It was a report of the growing practise of erotic choking among teenagers, and the problems it presents for people who are learning what sexual relations are all about. I won't repeat the points here, but I was left with the clear thought that I don't want BDSM/S&M normalized.

I'm a firm, un-ambiguous supporter of the idea that one can't and shouldn't be asked to control one's fantasies. But I also think we need to provide limits to the models we present to our children about what a healthy sex life in action is all about.

What I don't know is how to put these thoughts into practise. I want Lit to be as open to peoples's imagination as possible. But I don't want dark erotica to be normalized as a thing to teach in school.

Any thoughts about how society should manage these things?

I mean, it seems as simple as

"don't condemn, but don't normalize either"

 

[AwkwardMD]

I'm seeing a lot of equating mainstream BDSM with some of the most fringe and eccentric non-vanilla sex. BDSM is not an umbrella to shove any non-normative sex act under, especially if the next breath is to dismiss and condemn them all by association. That's disingenuous fear-mongering.

Oh, I heard a news story about a black kid who held up a liquor store THEREFORE all black people.

Oh, I heard a news story about a woman who got raped in Arizona THEREFORE all migrants.

 

[AG31]

To me, the S&M, the physical acts of hurting someone-- even to the extreme--are the least corruptible parts of BDSM. They're just physical sensations and many people can be trained to feel pleasure from pain.

This seems to me the most dubious part of the life, the mental power dynamics.

This is why I stopped using BDSM for my own work (except, of course, as a Lit category), because of its connotations of life-style and went back to plain old S&M.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Breath Play, Cutting, and Mummification aren't normal BDSM activities. Those were the only ones I've commented on. I've had several stories with BDSM elements in them, and I certainly don't condemn them.

I'm seeing a lot of equating mainstream BDSM with some of the most fringe and eccentric non-vanilla sex. BDSM is not an umbrella to shove any non-normative sex act under, especially if the next breath is to dismiss and condemn them all by association. That's disingenuous fear-mongering.

Oh, I heard a news story about a black kid who held up a liquor store THEREFORE all black people.

Oh, I heard a news story about a woman who got raped in Arizona THEREFORE all migrants.

 

[AG31]

We're writing fiction. We're not normalizing anything.

I totally agree. The "normalization" comes when college chaplains hold workshops on BDSM practise and mainstream media features articles describing the life style.

I'm completely behind Literotica. I don't really know how to articulate the difference between these stories and forums and what I'm talking about "normalization" in society. But I feel it.

As for kids and sex, I'm not going to discuss that here and risk breaking any rules, other than to say that I respect parents' choices and abilities to handle that with their own kids themselves.

We all contribute to the environment in which our kids find themselves as they mature.

 

[lustychimera]

This is why I stopped using BDSM for my own work (except, of course, as a Lit category), because of its connotations of life-style and went back to plain old S&M.

I don't have any moral qualms about ethical power play. But like I say, I think it's a difficult thing to achieve IRL.

But in a story where everything is entirely fictitious, even the "real" abuse, I personally have no moral hangup writing it. I do try to paint it as a fucked up thing, but it's also titillating content, so I can't just hide behind that.

I don't feel that I'm responsible for people's actions IRL unless I'm writing my story as a persuasive argument.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

We should avoid generalizations. There are so many shades of BDSM. There's BDSM that is confined to the bedroom and in that sense, it shouldn't be a problem in the sense of a full-blown BDSM relationship, no matter what the kinks are. I am of course not talking about anything extreme such as choking and breath play or using knives or anything like that.
There is space for healthy BDSM "play" in a relationship, as long as it's confined in some way.

I also feel that we are somewhat unfair towards BDSM, as there are other kinks that can be just as damaging, maybe not physically, but emotionally and psychologically? Swinging, open relationships, cuckolding... there is potential for hurt in all of them. Same as with everything else, if it's being done by rational and empathic individuals, it should work out. Otherwise...

 

[MillieDynamite]

Not so much!

Swinging, open relationships, cuckolding... there is potential for hurt in all of them. Same as with everything else, if it's being done by rational and empathic individuals, it should work out. Otherwise...

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Not so much!

You are killing my dramatic effect!

 

[KeithD]

Any thoughts about how society should manage these things?

No, because I don't run off onto what "society" wants or expects in writing for Literotica. I stick with sexual arousal. Sometimes that runs to the extreme. But that's not anything like my views in the real world. I don't accept much pain infliction or any humiliation in real world situations. That said, I tend not to include a lot of the former and practically none of the latter in my erotica writing.

 

[Jmanchu]

To be a good dom/domme, you need the right balance between taking care of your partner's particular emotional needs(being able to check up on how your partner is doing) and SAFELY allowing both you and your partner to explore your shared taboo fantasies and desires around control while keeping in mind your partner's mental wellbeing at the moment, etc. before, during, and after(aftercare).

This requires a lot of emotional sensitivity and maturity and understanding on both the dom's and sub's parts. A lot of emotional intelligence, TRUST, and communication is needed, something that most teens just don't have(the choking part has me worried). I don't even most adults have that or realistic ideas of what BDSM should look like. The popularity of 50 Shades of Grey a while back come to mind, it could be because I'm a guy so I'm definitely not the intended demographic, but I read it anyways. it's a complete piece of crap. I find nothing redeemable about it. The "BDSM" is also just abuse.

I also understand there's a lot of potential for abuse, unintended or not. No pun, I mean literal abuse or trauma from these experiences. Not just the sub, but even for the dom if things get too wild and possibly emotionally unhealthy to explore or play the part. But that only really goes for the more "out there" kinds of play. BDSM can be anything you want, it doesn't even have to be violent. I know people get the idea that BDSM means hitting, spanking, whipping, choking, fearplay, etc but that's not what defines it in my opinion. It can play a part of it if that's what both partners want in it but it's not a defining part or even necessarily present. It's a very broad spectrum of "discipline" domination/submission, possible bondange, etc, for erotic excitement to explore with your partner.

BDSM isn't something that people should just get into without proper research and preparation and talking for both partners. Easing into it, slowly becoming familiar with it throughout sessions before just doing it all in one go, especially if one or both partners are new to it. There's a fine line exciting domination play and outright abuse and those lines are not ever clear. Even if something was okay a moment before, it might not be anymore right at that moment. Especially for darker BDSM play even if both partners consent.

 

[lovecraft68]

Here's a reality check, BDSM, even if you don't know the term, begins at a young age. I recall having bondage fantasies while still in elementary school, I developed-and still have-a foot fetish when I found a pair of my friend's sisters stockings when I was around 12 and got off on sniffing them among other things. That's not an example of BDSM, but it a sexual fetish that reared its head pre-high school.

When I was around 18 a girl I was seeing at the time wanted me to not only choke, but to slap her in the face. I couldn't bring myself to do the latter back then, it made me nervous. But I did like it when she did it to me.

Point I'm making is it is not new for teenagers to begin exploring and experimenting, what's new is them being more open about it. I do imagine porn being everywhere could be behind more curiosity about it than in previous times. This is not new, just another ambulance chasing article thinking this it is.

 

[SimonDoom]

To start with, I adopt a principle that fantasizing about something, or reading or writing a story that fantasizes about something, is not in any way "normalizing" something. It is not, in any way, an endorsement of a practice in real life. We are perfectly free to fantasize about whatever we want to without worrying that somehow, by doing so, we are endorsing the idea that the "something," whatever it is, is acceptable in real life.

Of course, it may be the case that some people have difficulty telling the difference between fantasy and reality. It may be the case that some small minority of people read fantasy stories and then decide "I'm going to try that" in the real world. I'm not one of those people, and I feel no obligation to limit my imagination or my fantasies because some of those people exist.

As far as "normalizing" something like BDSM, or other "deviant" sexual practices, is concerned, my view is that we should try to raise young people to exercise good judgment but we always have to be aware that some people won't. I raised kids and helped teach them how to drive and told them "follow the traffic rules" knowing very well that they might not always do that. It's not a good reason not to teach them to drive. Life is risky. If you teach people about skydiving, some people are going to do it wrong and jump out of planes and kill themselves. This is life. It's not good parenting to say, "I'm going to do my best to prevent my kids from finding out about skydiving."

I can't think of a good reason to teach BDSM practices in schools or to young people. That's something better left to adulthood. If one of my teen kids had asked me what BDSM was, I would have told them, and told them what, to the best of my limited knowledge, were the risks and concerns of practicing BDSM. But I would NOT have said, "You should never do this," because that's stupid advice. Many people practice BDSM and have happy, fulfilling experiences doing so. My approach to talking to and teaching my children has always been, as best as I know how, reality-based. I wasn't going to keep information from them because of the risk that they might abuse the information. I wanted to give them the information and do my best to inculcate a sense of judgment so they could use the information in the best way they could. I think that's the best we can do.

 

[MillieDynamite]

In some of my disclaimers, I've included, "My writing about this lifestyle choice doesn't mean I am promoting it." Or, "My writing about rape doesn't mean I believe it is the right thing for anyone to do."

To start with, I adopt a principle that fantasizing about something, or reading or writing a story that fantasizes about something, is not in any way "normalizing" something. It is not, in any way, an endorsement of a practice in real life. We are perfectly free to fantasize about whatever we want to without worrying that somehow, by doing so, we are endorsing the idea that the "something," whatever it is, is acceptable in real life.

Of course, it may be the case that some people have difficulty telling the difference between fantasy and reality. It may be the case that some small minority of people read fantasy stories and then decide "I'm going to try that" in the real world. I'm not one of those people, and I feel no obligation to limit my imagination or my fantasies because some of those people exist.

As far as "normalizing" something like BDSM, or other "deviant" sexual practices, is concerned, my view is that we should try to raise young people to exercise good judgment but we always have to be aware that some people won't. I raised kids and helped teach them how to drive and told them "follow the traffic rules" knowing very well that they might not always do that. It's not a good reason not to teach them to drive. Life is risky. If you teach people about skydiving, some people are going to do it wrong and jump out of planes and kill themselves. This is life. It's not good parenting to say, "I'm going to do my best to prevent my kids from finding out about skydiving."

I can't think of a good reason to teach BDSM practices in schools or to young people. That's something better left to adulthood. If one of my teen kids had asked me what BDSM was, I would have told them, and told them what, to the best of my limited knowledge, were the risks and concerns of practicing BDSM. But I would NOT have said, "You should never do this," because that's stupid advice. Many people practice BDSM and have happy, fulfilling experiences doing so. My approach to talking to and teaching my children has always been, as best as I know how, reality-based. I wasn't going to keep information from them because of the risk that they might abuse the information. I wanted to give them the information and do my best to inculcate a sense of judgment so they could use the information in the best way they could. I think that's the best we can do.

 

[AG31]

I don't think of the existence of Literotica.com as normalizing non-vanilla sex, but I'm not sure how to articulate why, beyond the fact that no one is advertising it in the newspaper or cable TV.

I've figured one thing out. I've said often that I've kept my own S&M interests private IRL. And that it's not because I feel ashamed, it's because there's a norm involved. Not a rule or a law, but a norm that says you don't insist that other people deal with certain things that they may find offensive. That's why we have a special web site for erotica. Because people should only encounter it when they choose to.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Australia has legislated a new role of a Sex Discrimination Commissioner. Amongst other things, the role will address consent, sex education, rights etc. in a structured, fact based way. One of the concerns right now, that gets a fair amount of air-play, is kids using porn to "guide" their choices about sex, consent, and "what people do with sex" - which isn't the best role model on the planet.

Education might help, if only there was an agreed curriculum. Still, every little bit helps.

https://humanrights.gov.au/our-work/sex-discrimination

 

[joy_of_cooking]

There's no such thing as sane and safe breath play

I guess "sane" is entirely subjective and cultural, and "safe" is all about your risk tolerance, but I can imagine some forms of breath play that are safer than, say, crossing a busy street in the US or working as a feller. What do you think of, say,

1. covering someone's mouth and pinching their nostrils
2. having someone seal a gas mask by pressing upward against your hand, so that they have to fight gravity to maintain the seal
3. forcing someone's head down in water, with the caveat that they have to keep resisting or you pull them up