How did you become a Feminist?

[cantdog]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: gender issues

I've had to go to court I don't know how many times because someone that was legitmately fired, pulled the "race card." Race had nothing to do with it, but they sure took it to court anyway. One very large corporation I worked for actually settled because the whole thing dragged out so long it was costing them more in legal fees than it would to just settle and have it done with.

That's from Cloudy. I remember a case when I was a dorm parent at the boarding school where I taught French and German. A kid came right in the front door of the dorm with his sawed-off shotgun, right in front of God and everybody.

Well, once we'd actually seen the thing, we had to act. The young ass had no more judgement than a small squirrel to just waltz in with it.

He put on the great stone face and said it was another case of oppression by the white man on him, because he was a Passamaquoddy.

That was funny. But in your arena, it could easily be taken very seriously and cause a lot of headache.

We asked him, "George, what do you have this thing for, anyhow? You can't hit anything accurately with it further off than across a room; what good is it?"

"I like to hear it go off."

Okay. I guess. But we had to confiscate it anyhow.

 

[Belegon]

the "Race Card"

Jeez, I could do a whole thread on this one...

See my Av? The skin is caucasian. I used to be a Foot Locker manager before I moved into my current industry. If you know anything about that store's products you can guess a high percentage of the target market.

Seemed like most times I refused a return because the shoes had been worn for four months, or whenever I asked the wrong person for ID with a credit card, I got hit with the "Race Card". Don't people ever understand the point of the "cry wolf" story?

There is so much work still to be done to bring the gender and race equality issues to the point where they truly are non-issues. I now work in an industry where things are a hell of a lot closer to being gender neutral, at least in my market area. Even so, when a female co-worker of mine recently got promoted to a management position she had truly earned, there seemed to be a "surprise" element with our customers.

I sometimes think this is an issue we are going to have to "outlive" to solve. My former employee EARNED her new title. Why should she be treated that way just because there is an "s" in font of the "he"?

At Foot Locker I finally started getting in peoples faces about it. My last few weeks there I kept a wedding photo behind the counter. If people got out of line on race I pulled it out. "See my wife? Notice the features. See the Best Man? Last name Chavez. Notice the Groomsmen? Nice tan on J, Mike is catholic and my bro is (gasp) white. Now shut up and get out of my store!"

I'm sure it would have got me fired if I had not quit first.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Re: the "Race Card"

At the convienience store I worked at, we got that too. Any time one of us white folk denied a sale of alchohol or cigs to certain black costomers they would say or imply that it was because we were racist. My white store manager would put up with any crap from a customer except that- or cussing at his employees. His wife was black- his daughter mixed, but he didn't bother to point that out. He knew where he was and didn't feel any need to justify or explain himself. Just kicked 'em out.

Of course a white customer decided that my black co-worker was a racist based on a conversation that the two of us were having (I was off the clock and it was nothing I found offensive) Maybe people want to see racism in others so that they can reasure themselves that they aren't racist themselves- who knows. But yes, it does seem that people I quick to jump to the conclusion at any chance they get.

Jeez, I could do a whole thread on this one...

See my Av? The skin is caucasian. I used to be a Foot Locker manager before I moved into my current industry. If you know anything about that store's products you can guess a high percentage of the target market.

Seemed like most times I refused a return because the shoes had been worn for four months, or whenever I asked the wrong person for ID with a credit card, I got hit with the "Race Card". Don't people ever understand the point of the "cry wolf" story?

There is so much work still to be done to bring the gender and race equality issues to the point where they truly are non-issues. I now work in an industry where things are a hell of a lot closer to being gender neutral, at least in my market area. Even so, when a female co-worker of mine recently got promoted to a management position she had truly earned, there seemed to be a "surprise" element with our customers.

I sometimes think this is an issue we are going to have to "outlive" to solve. My former employee EARNED her new title. Why should she be treated that way just because there is an "s" in font of the "he"?

At Foot Locker I finally started getting in peoples faces about it. My last few weeks there I kept a wedding photo behind the counter. If people got out of line on race I pulled it out. "See my wife? Notice the features. See the Best Man? Last name Chavez. Notice the Groomsmen? Nice tan on J, Mike is catholic and my bro is (gasp) white. Now shut up and get out of my store!"

I'm sure it would have got me fired if I had not quit first.

 

[cantdog]

I work in a church now, and we have a continuing stream of people who want money for one purpose or another.

A lot of them are scam artists, not surprisingly. We've had to set up lines of consultation between churches and similar places, to ask about the names we have and the stories we've gotten. A lot of the contributors to the fund we maintain to help people directly are poor. They can't afford to give, but they do it anyway because it's a church thing, and we have a responsibility.

The fellow who decides to sue the company for discrimination may have some reasons, but it is extremely devastating emotionally to be fired, and people will use any straw to float themselves if they are going down. A lot of our scam artists are cynical manipulators, but most are just desperate, or only have themselves to blame, which in itself is hard on a person. It is only human to defend your ego. Race is just one tool in the box, sometimes. It doesn't call for all this resentment.

 

[cloudy]

The fellow who decides to sue the company for discrimination may have some reasons, but it is extremely devastating emotionally to be fired, and people will use any straw to float themselves if they are going down. A lot of our scam artists are cynical manipulators, but most are just desperate, or only have themselves to blame, which in itself is hard on a person. It is only human to defend your ego. Race is just one tool in the box, sometimes. It doesn't call for all this resentment.

Yes, it is hard to be fired, I've been there.

I've been discriminated against, because of race and also because of gender.

Calling it a "tool" to use just rubs me the wrong way.

When people have struggled for so damn long to bring equality for all races into being, someone filing an unfounded lawsuit, or yelling discrimation where there is none just sets the process back, not forward.

 

[Guest]

...It doesn't call for all this resentment.

Thank you, Cant. I am surprized to read this here, but glad finally. I understand so-called reverse racism, but resent the attitude of most who 'play' it. It's generally too personal and self-righteous. Racism is insidious and beyond the personal. You seem a very perceptive and enlightened person.

Perdita

 

[cantdog]

aw shucks



Perdita loves me!!



I hope I'm nothing special. Understanding disarms.

If all of the ignorance in the world
Passed a second ago
What would you say?
And who would you obey?
I am here to say that Peace Is Now
Peace is now, peace must be now

-- Live (the band, that is) 1991

 

[cantdog]

Yes, it is hard to be fired, I've been there.

I've been discriminated against, because of race and also because of gender.

Calling it a "tool" to use just rubs me the wrong way.

When people have struggled for so damn long to bring equality for all races into being, someone filing an unfounded lawsuit, or yelling discrimation where there is none just sets the process back, not forward.

I only meant another flotation device when you're sinking and anything will serve, but I'm sorry, my choice of words was tactless. I was thinking of poor oppressed George when his shotgun was discovered, actually.

He was too young to understand the tactical aspect you're speaking about, that if indeed discrimination is important-- and surely it is-- then do not trivialize it, it only encourages the bastards . It was a silly and counter-productive thing to say, and frustrating to see happen when you're serious about discrimination. Forgive me?



cantdog

 

[cloudy]

I only meant another flotation device when you're sinking and anything will serve, but I'm sorry, my choice of words was tactless. I was thinking of poor oppressed George when his shotgun was discovered, actually.

He was too young to understand the tactical aspect you're speaking about, that if indeed discrimination is important-- and surely it is-- then do not trivialize it, it only encourages the bastards . It was a silly and counter-productive thing to say, and frustrating to see happen when you're serious about discrimination. Forgive me?



cantdog

Of course. I'm sure you didn't mean it the way I took it. I apologize as well.

 

[raphy]

Been avoiding this thread. Didn't see this message. My apologies, SnP. It deserves a response.

I get the idea that you are refuring to me, because of what I said about men being 'fertile' all the time, vs. women being fertile only certain times of the month.

I did mean to say that men are simpler, and have simpler motivations in general than women. However, I did not mean to say that sex was your *only* motivation. Rather, I just meant to point out that while women's bodies urging us to seek to mate on a periodic basis, men's bodies are continually urging them. It's not just a matter of 'society teaches us that men should be studs and women should be dumure.' Men have a biological reason to be preocupied with sex most of the time just as women have a biological reason to be precupied with sex at certain times. This was meant to be in contrast that men think about sex just because they have 'dirty minds' or because they are 'dogs' or 'pigs' The ulitmate sexual satisfaction is pregnancy- in that the body has fulfilled its desire to procreate, and no longer has to try. Men never get that, their bodies don't get a break from the biological drive to mate like women's do, through pregnancy and through monthly cycles.

I also don't think that your oppinions or arguments are of any less worth because you are a man. If I did, I wouldn't have spent so much time arguing with you on the depression thread. I admit that i do have sexist attitudes. But I think that women are superior because of the things that only they can do. As to the things that we all can do- think, have oppinioins, play tennis or whatever else- superiority and inferiority are on a case by case basis. I have no doubt that you are a superior musician than I, for example. I don't think women are better at eveything than men or that there thoughts, feelings or opinions are worth more or more capable. In most things I think that men and women are equally capable and valuable, and should be given equal chance and opportunity.

I just also happen to think that our differences that have been traditionally regarded as 'weaknesses' or things that make us inferior, are actually our strenths- our greatest strengths and in fact, humankind's greatest strengths. This is far from traditional feminism as I have seen it, which seems to often agree with the idea that our *femaleness* is a weakness, and seeks more to compete with men as if we were men- to forgo children, to hide our beauty to downplay our sexuality, to prove that we can be just as 'balsy' 'cocky' or whatever as any man. (as if man were the standard that we all should measure ourselves against [well in a 'man's world' it is])

Women have a 'power' that is greater than what any man has, and that is over men. Most men know it and fear it. (Wanna insult a man, call him 'pussy whipped') But rather than being tought that our unique qualities are strengths, we have been tought to regard them as weaknesses or sins. IMO it is because men are pretty much terified that when we realize how much power we actually have, we really will 'pussy whip' them and they will be slaves to there every whim. There are probably only a handful of women who actually want that, but why take the chance. I have heard *men* say that if women only knew the power we had over them, we would rule the world. Well, if I were the 'ruling class' I sure wouldn't want that.

I could go on and on trying to expain why I think the things I do, but I'm sure that each word would probably offend you more rather than less. I admit that I have sexist attidudes, because I know that there are many women and feminists who definitley don't want to be lumped in the same group as me and I think it's only right to identify myself as different from them. It's not right for feminists to all be accused of being something they are not. I try to identify myself clearly, rather than having a 'women are superior' agenda while claiming that I believe something else. When I give my oppinion, you know were I am coming from. Just as I might discount your opinion because you are a man (which I don't do) you are free to discount my opinion because I am a self-avowed 'female supremisist.' Or on the other hand, you can listen to what I have to say and just take it with a grain of salt. The same way as if a sexual supmissive says, "i love it when he hits me, the harder the better' -- you know were that's coming from.

Like perdita mentioned- I should have just kept my more radical oppinions to myself. But they don't mean that I don't respect yours. And it doesn't mean that mine won't change from my conversations with you. I have learned a lot from people who disagree with me here, especially on the topic of my attitudes towards men. Despite the fact that my attitude is offputing, I don't believe that everything needs to be 'boys vs. girls' Which is another thing I see in the womans movement. I think we all need to learn to live, work and exist together.

Probably it just sounds like I'm contradicting myself. I can't help it, it's difficult to really explain yourself well on the internet. And it's really easy to say the wrong thing, and just make it worse. So I'm just going to end now by saying that you've always been one of my favorite posters, and I've always been very interested in what you have to say, because it's always been worth reading- not because or in spite of your gender. I hope that we can agree to disagree and still be friends.

I think that if I'm being honest, the thing that I have the biggest problem with is the attitude towards men in general - Rather than specifically finding those men (or even women as well) that are worthy of your vitriol, disrespect or 'superiority'.

I've never claimed that men are superior as human beings. Never have done, never will. And I get really pissed off with the short-sighted mysogenistic members of my gender who still believe it.

Then, to run across a woman who preaches female superiority is somewhat akin to a slap in the face. It's almost like I've just got this side of the argument calmed down, and then someone comes along and starts it all back up again with posturing and chest-beating.

I guess I just don't see the need for anyone to think of themselves as superior to anyone else - Because it just ain't so - And I won't lie to you, I do resent the implication that you are in some magical way a 'superior' being than me, simply because we're different genders.

You see, I fight for equality and I'll slap down anyone who thinks his or her gender is superior.

 

[Ms_Kat]

Raphy's post reminds me of a course I took a few summers ago that was called "Gender Psychology" and promised to explore the difference in how men and women processed information, maintained relationships, etc. Unfortunately, it didn't live up to its billing.


The hyper-feminist professor basically used the class to preach about how men were a bunch of worthless animals compared to women. I objected pretty much every day, but I got extremely heated when she stated "Women are genetically superior to men."

This type of dogmatic preaching only weakens the attempt to get true equality. I was surprised that no other person in the class, not even one of the ten men there, protested her statement. Her response to my protest was, "Prove me wrong."

On the other hand, a male co-worker saw me reading a book entitled "Female Psychology" and made the comment "There must be a lot of pictures." It took everything I had not to kick him in the balls.



Hugs,


Kat

 

[sweetnpetite]

Your post also deserves a response. Unfortunatly I'm not exactly sure how to give one.

I respect you, I respect your point of view, and I respect your willingness and ability to explain your POV so respectfully even though you strongly dislike what I had to say, and even feel perhaps attacked by it. You make good points.

I won't contnue to argue mine, because my intention is not (for a change) to convince you that I am right- just to be direct about my position. Although it really hasn't changes much, I would like to at least clarify that I do not condone oppression, regardless of who is or is not superior. I do not think that any one sex should be excluded from certain activities or opportunities based on gender. But I'm sorry, I don't believe that the genders are equal. Unfortuantly equality has been lumped together in our minds with worth, rights and a whole lotta other stuff, making my statements easy to misunderstand and difficult to clarify.

I've kind of been avoiding this thread too. I just hope that we dont' have to hate each other, even if one of us hates the others oppinion.

If its better or worse, I also think that most if not all of the other creatures in the animal kingdom are superior to humans, rather than inferior or equal. I have a lot of crazy ideas and theories in my head. I don't think that the world is out of ballance- I think it's upside down. (On the other hand, maybe it's just me that's upside down.)

I admit that my opinions are radical and appolagize for there offensiveness. Can we still be friends?

Been avoiding this thread. Didn't see this message. My apologies, SnP. It deserves a response.



I think that if I'm being honest, the thing that I have the biggest problem with is the attitude towards men in general - Rather than specifically finding those men (or even women as well) that are worthy of your vitriol, disrespect or 'superiority'.

I've never claimed that men are superior as human beings. Never have done, never will. And I get really pissed off with the short-sighted mysogenistic members of my gender who still believe it.

Then, to run across a woman who preaches female superiority is somewhat akin to a slap in the face. It's almost like I've just got this side of the argument calmed down, and then someone comes along and starts it all back up again with posturing and chest-beating.

I guess I just don't see the need for anyone to think of themselves as superior to anyone else - Because it just ain't so - And I won't lie to you, I do resent the implication that you are in some magical way a 'superior' being than me, simply because we're different genders.

You see, I fight for equality and I'll slap down anyone who thinks his or her gender is superior.