How about 3000 security cameras for Manhattan? There, feel safer?

An approach which is not paranoid and Big Brotherish

Toronto, Canada, is developing a traffic monitoring system AND trying to protect privacy [i.e., not use it to check for crimes], see this interesting story below:

Toronto experience in limiting use of CCTV for law enforcement.


http://www.worldlii.org/int/journals/PLBIN/2000/43.html

{excerpt}
TRAFFIC MONITORING BECAME A THREAT TO PRIVACY


The Toronto traffic monitoring system was set up primarily to check traffic flows, modify traffic signal cycles, detect accidents and guide the response of emergency services. Cameras were mounted on high poles and their output was made available to TV stations so that motorists could avoid congested areas. However, when it became apparent that the cameras were also capable of following individual vehicles and recording numberplates and facial images, law enforcement authorities expressed an interest in using the system for other purposes - a classic example of the ability of technology to exceed the purpose for which it was acquired, and the natural inclination to use it to its full potential.

Rita Reynolds took the view that, since local government staff controlled the cameras, they would be contravening privacy law if they allowed the system to be used in more invasive ways: the original authorisation by the City Council did not allow it, and covert surveillance would in any case require a judicial warrant. She therefore developed a protocol under which cameras would normally remain in the high-level (wide-field) viewing mode unless a life-threatening event was observed. If a traffic accident occurred and it was necessary to zoom in to determine the appropriate emergency response, the feed to the TV stations would be cut. Tapes containing personal data were to be sealed and securely stored for at least one year. If the police wished to make use of such tapes they would have to obtain a warrant to do so.

The protocol made it clear that the City Council does not have a law-enforcement mandate. It does, like all public authorities, have a duty of care. It is therefore appropriate to use its CCTV cameras to respond to life-threatening events, but not for the routine observation of all individuals passing a given point on the presumption that they might commit a crime. This is regarded as an unjustified invasion of privacy. In five years of operation, the 37 cameras in the system have not in fact detected any instances of a crime in progress.


POLICE USE OF CCTV NOT ALWAYS JUSTIFIABLE


A crucial test of the protocol (and of the City Council's support for it) arose in the 1990s when, at a period of political controversy over welfare cuts by the government of Ontario, there were plans for a 10,000-strong protest march to the legislature in Toronto. The police, concerned about possible violence, asked to take over the system of traffic cameras to conduct surveillance of the march.

They intended to obtain as many individual images as possible in order to identify known criminals, likely offenders, protest organisers, and potential witnesses to incidents. Rita Reynolds asked the police to obtain a judicial warrant, citing a Canadian Supreme Court decision in which this had been held necessary.


The police were unable to produce a warrant, but insisted that they had sufficient authority. Rita Reynolds pointed out that the City Council could not legally comply. After further exchanges and some media publicity, the police reluctantly accepted an agreement under which Council staff would remain in control of the cameras; these would normally stay in their high-level viewing positions, and would be used to direct emergency services if required. The police could view the output of the system to facilitate crowd control. If an incident occurred, Council staff would cut the external video link and zoom cameras to determine the service required. If a law-enforcement matter was involved, the police would be free to view the tape on production of a sub poena.

In the event there were no incidents requiring intervention. The episode served to establish the principle that a public authority should not, under the guise of traffic control, conduct electronic surveillance of citizens exercising their democratic right of peaceful assembly. A basic argument for this principle is that if CCTV is used to collect personal data without stringent justification and controls, it becomes a mechanism for undermining the civil society which it is supposed to serve.
 
S-Des said:
Funny . . . admitting that means you most certainly are. This is the type of situation that screams for everyday people's opinions. I'd much rather hear your opinion than someone sitting in their closet, wearing a tin foil hat to keep safe from the government. :D

:D *adjusting tin foil*

Being among the group that has been recorded, in case I do something wrong, I'm a little paranoid. Being among the group that has been unjustifiably persecuted, I'm paranoid. Having had my activities tracked, I'm paranoid. (No, I've never broken the law or been arrested.) Someone in authority took an interest in me, therefore I've been watched. I'm 'in the system'. You honestly don't know how scary it is to be given an account of your activities, until it happens. With this system in place, it becomes even easier for those people to 'watch' me. That frightens me.

On the other hand, this system would be beneficial for 1) the victims of crime that never see the perpetrator. 2) The police and prosecution, to prove that a crime has been committed and by whom. 3) The victims of harrassment (police or otherwise) to prove the event did indeed happen.

I'm sure there are other benefits, and other consequences. In my experience, you give someone in a position of power any type of tool and they will abuse it. Does that mean they shouldn't be given a tool? I don't know.
 
Data Protection

The UK has the Data Protection Act.

Anyone collecting and storing personal information must register what they intend to record, and what use they will make of the data. Individuals have a right to be told what is recorded about them.

Detection and prevention of crime is exempt...

Og
 
Could it be that surveillance technologies are no substitute for a political solution? Paradoxically, the more overexposed the subjects of surveillance culture, the more underexposed the many unexplored motives for a crime?
 
Pure said:
Toronto, Canada, is developing a traffic monitoring system AND trying to protect privacy [i.e., not use it to check for crimes]

Well, at least we have the grounds of our difference laid bare. You appear to feel that looking for possible crimes being committed is an invasion of everyone's privacy. I don't. I think it's the duty of the police.

And the previous example of my conversation with Little Sister is, of course, ridiculous. I never litter; I find it an offensively callous demonstration of disinterest in the happiness of others. If, perchance, I had accidentally dropped a candy wrapper and found myself addressed by Little Sister, I would of course had the decency to have offered her a horsey ride. :)
 
note to Shang,

BSYou appear to feel that looking for possible crimes being committed is an invasion of everyone's privacy. I don't. I think it's the duty of the police.

P: That's close, Shang, although my position is that *certain ways* of 'looking for possible crimes' is an invasion of everyone's privacy.

Apparently the Ontario courts, regarding the Toronto Police, did NOT agree with a position similar to yours, regarding the incident cited above
(photographing protesters in a march, using traffic cameras).

Regarding, for example, 'roadside checks' they are--IMO-- at the edge of what's lawful; the officer with a flashlight looks at my face and through the window into the front and back seats. IF there are any indications of drinking, he may ask for a breathalyzer test.IF there's a bag of weed on the back seat, he can insist on closer inspection.

However, were he, without probable cause, ransack my car [hypothetically, along with a bunch of others], opening the doors and trunk, checking under seats and vacuuming the car's floor rug, then he has violated my privacy right. This is true under US law.

Incidentally, the [US] law professor's article, which I don't know if you looked at, argued that warrants are the way to go, re surveillance [as opposed, for example to GWBs way, by executive choice]. To get a warrant you have to have probable cause *and have someone specific in mind*, you can't say, "we're going to search every car parked on Fifth Street for evidence of possible crimes."

It is a shame, in my opinion, in the name of 'fighting terrorism' to create a 'surveillance society.' And it's likely ineffectual. Evidence: The Brits, with one camera per 12 people {probably a high among western nations} are 'hit' by terrorists, on more than one occasion.

Here's an interesting aside. The British semi-right, the conservatives, has protested the CCTV as an operation of the "nanny state" (and for once I agree). The American paranoid right, its 'conservatives,' has no problem at all with Bush's warrantless surveillance, e.g. of phone calls, the use of "Carnivore" etc. Go figure.
 
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EXCELLENT survey of law and CCTV in Europe

the article in full:

http://www.surveillance-and-society.org/articles2(2)/regulation.pdf

"The Legal Regulation of CCTV in Europe," by Marianne L Gras.
article in Surveillance and Society

Abstract

This paper explores the recent history of CCTV system regulation in England and Wales questioning whether recent additions to the law can be regarded as providing for effective regulation, in particular, of camera numbers. It goes on to explore the legal landscape relating to public and private use of CCTV to subject publicly accessible space to surveillance in Germany as well as giving an overview of the regulatory systems in France, the Netherlands and Sweden. Drawing from this analysis, minimum standards for effective regulation are explored in terms of fulfilling both the letter and the spirit of laws across Europe.

====

Turns out that that Verhaltnismassigkeit and Volkszaehlungsurteil

are important concepts in the debate.
 
Pure said:
Turns out that that Verhaltnismassigkeit and Volkszaehlungsurteil

are important concepts in the debate.

*laugh*

I want to talk about those with Little Sister. :) I like the idea of any debate where those are key terms.
 
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