Homophobes on Lit?

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

Yesterday night Laurel posted my newest story (no, MG, not that story). This was my first male/male story, and the reactions have been, well...interesting.

I've never received a single negative feedback on any of my stories- up until this morning, when there were two. One (anonymous) called my story "boring and poorly punctuated" and the other said "Get rid of that picture- you look stoned" presumably referring to my author's page photo...

There rest were all glowing; however, several made the point of telling me that "they were NOT gay, or even bi" which made me chuckle, but I also wonder-

Could there possibly be a negative backlash on women who write in the m/m category? Has anyone else experienced this?

 

[Madame Manga]

Nope, though I speak mostly from the female-oriented fan fiction perspective. I've written a moderate amount of slash, and no one has flamed me for it in eight years. Posted one of 'em here without negative feedback--not a lot of feedback, period, but all positive. Why would a guy read a male/male if he didn't like the idea? If he didn't, his boredom is his problem, not yours.

Wouldn't a homophobic troll call you nasty names rather than talk about punctuation?

MM

 

[oggbashan]

Yesterday night Laurel posted my newest story (no, MG, not that story). This was my first male/male story, and the reactions have been, well...interesting.

I've never received a single negative feedback on any of my stories- up until this morning, when there were two. One (anonymous) called my story "boring and poorly punctuated" and the other said "Get rid of that picture- you look stoned" presumably referring to my author's page photo...

There rest were all glowing; however, several made the point of telling me that "they were NOT gay, or even bi" which made me chuckle, but I also wonder-

Could there possibly be a negative backlash on women who write in the m/m category? Has anyone else experienced this?

I think it is difficult to write convincingly from a viewpoint that you don't actually have. I am criticised for writing some stories from a first person female viewpoint because "It is obvious that it wasn't written by a woman.". Your feedback that "they were NOT gay" might be valid but only if the comments are from gay men.

However in the past extreme means were necessary. George Eliot and the Bronte Sisters had to publish under male pseudonyms because "no one would buy a novel written by a woman". Would the feedback have been different if your pseudonym and profile was apparently male?

Only two pieces of negative feedback? I think you have been very lucky to have so few. The two you quote don't seem helpful. I think you should ignore them and be prepared for a few more useless comments.

Whether your story is believable as male/male depends on the general opinion expressed in the votes and all the feedback.

Og

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

Well, Madam, you may be right, although my thought was more along the lines that my previous stories had been rather "het" and perhaps someone didn't prefer my new direction.

Ogg- yes, also I think the fact that it's a period piece will automatically make it unpalatable for some. Oh, and I meant that several of the (positive) readers stressed that *they themselves *weren't gay- as if they had to make a personal disclaimer before praising my story.

I'm probably just being an ass because I'm not used to anonymous nasty notes. But it just struck me odd that out of four stories, the only negative responses I've gotten have been in regards to this one.

I'm not trying to imply some vast frat-boy conspiracy or anything....

 

[jfinn]

At least half of what I write is gay themed. I post these stories here and at two other sites that focus on gay stories. The thing I've noticed about my feedback from Lit is that unlike the other sites, it's usually from straight women. Occasionally it's from bisexual or gay men, but I've only had two emails from males who have said they were straight, but liked gay stories.

I don't think this has anything to do with homophobia though, but just that Lit caters more to the straight crowd. I know I have lots of gay friends and most of them don't read here chosing instead sites that were developed specifically for their tastes.

While I agree with Og that writing from a pov that can't possibly be your own is challenging, I don't think it's impossible. Personally, no one has ever told me they think I shouldn't write mm because I'm a woman. Not here or on any other site. In fact, I'm more likely to hear that they were sure I was a guy until they saw my profile(s).

There's a long tradition of women writing gay stories. Look at Patricia Neil Warren's The Front Runner arguably the most popular gay novel ever published. Even here at Lit, you can look at the gay top list and see half a dozen female writers who've written some of the most popular stories on the site. Slash too, is almost exclusively written by women. So I don't think the thought of women writing these stories now is exactly shocking to most readers.

That doesn't mean I've never heard of a backlash however. I know a few women who specialize in gay lit and some of them have been lambasted for their writing. The typical negative response is that somehow they've turned their male characters into women with penises. But that seems to me to be more a criticism of the success of the writer in writing men than it does a real aversion to women writers going where no woman can go in real life.

Jayne

 

[CWatson]

Originally posted by Madame Manga
If he didn't, his boredom is his problem, not yours.

Amen, sister.

Originally posted by the Blue Feather Lady
There rest were all glowing; however, several made the point of telling me that "they were NOT gay, or even bi" which made me chuckle, but I also wonder-

Could there possibly be a negative backlash on women who write in the m/m category? Has anyone else experienced this?

From personal experience, I've always given my friends a dubious eye when they talk about slash--especially when they start talking FANFIC slash; H/D is not something I EVER wanted to think about--but then, I don't get mainstream lesbian porn either. Both seem vaguely voyeuristic to me. Oh, well, .

Now, speaking as one who might MAKE that disclaimer one day: maybe your blokes feel insecure in their sexuality. It would explain their responses AND why they're reading. ...But that's uncalled-for speculation and a lot to pick up on from one three-word disclaimer. And maybe I'm just projecting on them. But that's my two cents.

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

Scratch everything I've said, for I clearly worded it erronoeusly.

My only thought was that: because I have never received a single negative comment henceforth, and then, with this story- in addition to the normal, positive feedback- I received two negative ones. The only mitigating difference I could imagine is that I was writing a "gay" story this time, and that possibly, some of my regular readers didn't like it.

That's all. No one ever said anything about me not writing accurately from the male POV, and the readers who assured me that they "weren't gay" were all positive responses, so I didn't think anything about them.

No big deal. I just wondered if I had upset my particular natives, and if anyone else had ever alienated their fan-base by writing about a particular subject.

miss ultramarine fountain

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I've only received positive feedback for my gay male stories so far... atleast I think so. Some of my "fans" don't tell me what story they are praising, they just say it's "great" and "fantastic" and "hot", etc, so I usually sprinkle the praise over whatever story that hasn't gotten any for a while, and some of that has landed on the gay male stories.

I think I can understand a gay man very well. Hey, atleast we've got ONE interest in common..!

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

Well, and if they like Harry Potter, that makes it two.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Well, and if they like Harry Potter, that makes it two.

For once, it wasn't ME who mentioned his name first..!

Harry, Harry, Harry...

 

[oggbashan]

Re: Re: Homophobes on Lit?

Only two pieces of negative feedback? I think you have been very lucky to have so few. The two you quote don't seem helpful. I think you should ignore them and be prepared for a few more useless comments.

Og

As I said, negative feedback is not unusual. What is unusual is that you haven't had any before.

Og

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

Honestly, you're right, Ogg. I'm being overly sensitive.

Je suis en grand enfant, n'est pas?

la fille mauvaise avec la plume d'azure

 

[Rainbow Skin]

Male and female reactions are different. We have plenty of straight females here who are quite happy to read or even write lesbian fantasies. That doesn't even mean they're 'curious' in the story cliche sense of willing to fall for it if it actually happens.

But straight men reading gay men stories is much rarer: they have to be quite curious or quite insecure. The very existence of gay stories is going to be more of a provocation to some males. You're going to get a much more uptight contingent of 'readers'.

 

[MathGirl]

and that possibly, some of my regular readers didn't like it.

Dear Mlle,
That's probably what happened. If you write a few things in a certain vein, you get readers who expect that of you. Try something a little different, and they get pissed. It's happened to me every time I get a little creative.
MG
Ps. Fuggem if they can't take a joke.

 

[jfinn]

No one ever said anything about me not writing accurately from the male POV, and the readers who assured me that they "weren't gay" were all positive responses, so I didn't think anything about them.

No big deal. I just wondered if I had upset my particular natives, and if anyone else had ever alienated their fan-base by writing about a particular subject.

miss ultramarine fountain

Oops, that first bit I think is directed at me. Actually though I wasn't talking about your story, I was addressing Og's comment. I hadn't read yours at the time, though I have now and honestly I thought it was wonderful.

As for the second paragraph here of yours. Yes, occasionally I'll get a more or less tongue in cheek comment from a reader who tells me to stop wasting my time writing gay stories and get back to "the good stuff", but I don't take them seriously and I doubt they're meant that way. Of course for me the gay stuff came first, so the shock value of posting something entirely different was avoided since any readers I have who might be offended by heterosexual trysts don't read much at Lit. Those who do know though have said that they'd never read the straight stories.

This seems to go along with what Rainbow Sking said because I also get emails from Lit that say something on the order of "I love your writing, but there's no way I could ever stomach the gay stories." Again, these are almost all from men, straight this time. It's very rare that any man, straight or gay will read all my stories.

Jayne

 

[oggbashan]

While I agree with Og that writing from a pov that can't possibly be your own is challenging, I don't think it's impossible. Personally, no one has ever told me they think I shouldn't write mm because I'm a woman. Not here or on any other site. In fact, I'm more likely to hear that they were sure I was a guy until they saw my profile(s).

Jayne

I don't think it's impossible but I feel very vulnerable to criticism that I haven't got the pov right. Sometimes it is deserved. I write fetish stories for fetishes I don't find erotic. They seem to work for those who like that fetish.

But writing from a woman's pov? Or a gay man's? I try. Sometimes it seems to work, sometimes it doesn't. With help from my friends and useful feedback I'm getting better. That's one of the great things about Literotica.

Og

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

You write stories for fetishes you don't find erotic??

Wow, Ogg- that's actually really interesting. I wonder how many other people do that. Is it like a challenge issued to yourself, to see if you can eroticize it, or just for kicks on a whim?

Hmm. I'm quite curious now.

 

[MathGirl]

Originally posted by MlledeLaPlumeBleu You write stories for fetishes you don't find erotic??

DurtGurl does that sometimes. At least I sure hope the things she writes about aren't erotic to her. Ewwww

Me, I'm too sheepish to do that.

MG

 

[Quasimodem]

Homophobes on Lit Reflect the Real World.

Thu, 31 Jul 2003

The Vatican urged Catholics and non-Catholics alike Thursday to unite in campaigning against gay marriages and gay adoptions, seeking to stem the widening legal recognition of same-sex unions and the increasing acceptance of homosexual lifestyles.

The 12-page set of guidelines, approved by Pope John Paul, warns Catholic politicians that it is immoral to support same-sex unions.

Two weeks ago, the Canadian government sent proposed legislation legalizing same-sex marriages to the Supreme Court of Canada for comment.

The document says Catholic politicians have a "moral duty" to publicly work against legalization of gay marriage and the church is expected to lobby Canadian politicians to vote against the bill.
Chrétien and Liberal MP Paul Martin, who is considered the front-runner to succeed him, are both Catholics but have indicated they won't heed the Vatican's call.

A spokesperson says the prime minister respects the church's opinion, but he believes in separation of church and state.

Speaking in Toronto Wednesday, Martin said he must take a wider perspective as a legislator.

"This new document is intended to intimidate public officials across the globe into doing what the Vatican has not been able to do on its own: stem the growing tide for justice," said Marianne Duddy, executive director of Dignity USA, an organization of gay Catholics. "It is a tremendous shame that the leaders of our Church are becoming the vocal proponents for intolerance and continuing discrimination."

"To vote in favour of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral," the Catholic guideline added, although it didn't provide for specific penalties for Catholics who fail to oppose such laws. However, media reports say one Roman Catholic bishop from Alberta is warning that Chretien, who is Catholic, risks burning in hell if he makes same-sex marriage legal in Canada.

The federal government (of Canada) drafted legislation that redefines marriage as "the lawful union of two persons," after two provincial courts ruled it is unconstitutional to deny same-sex couples the right to marry. The Supreme Court is reviewing the legislation after which time a free vote will be held in Parliament.

Over the past two years, the Netherlands and Belgium extended marriages rights to all couples, no matter the partners' gender. Germany, France, Sweden and Denmark also have "civil union" laws.

In the Netherlands and Belgium, the proposals were backed by conservative Christian Democrat parties, which stressed Thursday that they respected the Vatican's viewpoint but had decided that its teaching on the issue wasn't appropriate.

In Belgium, where three-quarters of the population is Roman Catholic, the Flemish Christian Democrats who voted in favour of the law said the issue boiled down to supporting all kinds of families.

"For us, what's important is sustained relationships," said Luk Vanmaercke, a party spokesman. "We do not want to exclude gay couples from sustained relationships. On the contrary, we want to encourage them to take that responsibility too."


In the United States, the state of Vermont has a "civil union" law, giving same-sex couples the rights and responsibilities of traditional marriages, and the highest court in another state, Massachusetts, is weighing whether to legalize such unions.

In reaction, some Republican politicians in Washington are calling for a constitutional amendment that would ban gay marriages nationwide, despite recent polls showing that opposition to gay marriage had diminished in recent years.

On Wednesday, U.S. President George W. Bush weighed in on the issue, telling a news conference that marriage was defined strictly as a union between a man and a woman and that he wants to "codify that one way or the other." Government lawyers are exploring measures to enshrine it into law, the White House said.


When you have two of the most powerful men - each in their own way - vigorously promoting homophobic reaction against gays, even Lit. is going to feel a bit of their vitriol.

 

[oggbashan]

You write stories for fetishes you don't find erotic??

Wow, Ogg- that's actually really interesting. I wonder how many other people do that. Is it like a challenge issued to yourself, to see if you can eroticize it, or just for kicks on a whim?

Hmm. I'm quite curious now.

It started with some adult Yahoo Groups, particularly "unbirth". The groups' members write stories and draw pictures for each other. The comments on the work were very friendly and helpful so I thought I'd have a go.

It started as a writing exercise. Could I write something that pleased them? I tried. The first attempt wasn't too good but with helpful feedback from the group's members I produced "The Virgin Unbirth". The story now posted is very different from the original and much better as a result of their input but still has limited appeal. Unbirth is impossible and if possible would be painful and probably fatal. Whatever turns you on!

One of my net friends is German. She was a member of a now defunct Scarf Bondage group and had written stories in German for the group, then translated them into English. I rewrote the "English" so that it read as English and not a transliteration from German. She liked the rewrite so much that she translated it back into German as a different story.

So I had started writing for friends. I didn't like "stealing" copyright pictures to post so I wrote stories. The weirder the group the bigger the challenge was. Sometimes the challenge is too great. I haven't managed to write a story about Kerala women's hairy armpits yet.

Sometimes I take the **** out of them. "The Vinyl Dress" is a satire because I think that dressing in vinyl is uncomfortable and sweaty. "His Bad Hair Day" takes hair fetish to an extreme.

I still write for Yahoo groups. "Bagged at the Opera" was written for the "insack" group.

I don't think that I'm that unusual in trying to write erotic stories for scenarios that I don't find erotic. Those taking part in the competitions on Literotica do it to write a story in every category.

Since finding Literotica my stories have improved (at least I think so) and I'm writing less for the Yahoo Groups. The hairy armpits are still a challenge if I get bored.

Og

 

[MathGirl]

Fetish, schmetish

Originally posted by oggbashan The hairy armpits are still a challenge if I get bored.

Go for it, Og. You may do for hairy armpits what you did for garderobes.
MG
Ps. Dear Quaz,
Just imagine, the Pope and Jerry Falwell agreeing on something! I'll bet ol' Jerry is absolutely soiling his Depens about the issue of homosexual marriage.

 

[oggbashan]

Re: Fetish, schmetish

Go for it, Og. You may do for hairy armpits what you did for garderobes.
MG

It would have to be another chapter of The Worst Chain Story Ever.

Og

PS. If DurtGurl has hairy armpits, perhaps she'd be even more popular in Kerala and have her own TV show.

 

[gauchecritic]

Male and female reactions are different. We have plenty of straight females here who are quite happy to read or even write lesbian fantasies. That doesn't even mean they're 'curious' in the story cliche sense of willing to fall for it if it actually happens.

But straight men reading gay men stories is much rarer: they have to be quite curious or quite insecure.

I was going to rant about tar and brushes here but then I realised that it's quite possible that I'm an exception to every rule that's been promoted on the boards with regard to what men will and won't do.

Although I definitely cannot believe that straight women will read lesbian stories for pleasure without being curious.

+endrant+

Gauche

 

[Madame Manga]

I don't read lesbian stories in general--I've read some for crits, since I certainly have piles of bi-sexual or bi-curious women friends who write them. I don't believe I've ever run across a woman who enjoyed girl-girl when she wasn't even *curious*. By now, I am pretty sure I am not curious, since even the best-written lesbian sex scenes don't resonate with me. A sex story has to fall within my areas of interest or I usually don't bother with it.

My husband, who has never experimented with men or shown the slightest interest in doing so, *is* interested in slash. He points out homo-erotic elements in TV and movies all the time, and thinks that the psychological dynamics are illuminating. But I wouldn't call him insecure about his sexuality in the least, even though he is an American male.

Maybe most men are interested in sex, period, no matter who's engaging in it? ;-)

MM

 

[MathGirl]

Re: Re: Fetish, schmetish

PS. If DurtGurl has hairy armpits, perhaps she'd be even more popular in Kerala and have her own TV show.

Dear Og,
Don't encourage her! You know how she is.
MG
Ps. Shudder