Hmm - not sure where to post this? Creating a language?

[PhillippaT]

No - this isn't a 'how to?' question, really - (I've already been looking into all that) - but more of a - 'is it really worth it?' question

I'm really starting to get back into writing my story again - (I stopped for a while since the reason I was writing it to begin with fixed itself - yay!) - (Master Swordswoman) - but I realised I really couldn't let it go... (Not until I've finished, anyway - which might take a few years/decades at this rate).

Unfortunately, I have a bad habit of getting side-tracked and thinking ahead too far, and it's struck again

As I've been thinking things through - (again, as I've been doing for the past few years it seems) - I've realised that one of the races in my story, (not saying which), will really need to have their own language in order for me to use them correctly in how I want the next story to go. (Some of the foundations for that are already being slowly put into place in this story already - (*spoiler/hint: Marna's daughter Callina)).

The problem I have, is that, although for the specific story I'm currently writing (Master Swordswoman), I can probably get away without creating a language itself - (just quickly making some stuff up as I need to), if I manage to finish it and start the next, then I'll need far more than that - I'll need a 'proper' language.

Now, I've gotten in touch with a friend of mine who I knew from college ages ago, and he wrote me some music for a song I'll be using in the part I'm currently writing. Now, he's also said he can help me with the language too.

After reading his blog post about the some of the basic problems with the English Language (how it's taught and described) here: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DarrenTomlyn/3291/

I'm beginning to think it might be a good idea. (I'm also thinking about using some of his conclusions in my story too - (such as the definition of the word story itself, for starters!))

But here's the thing - if we really do end up creating a language - a proper, full on, working and capable language - then I feel that only using it for my own story would be a bit of a waste? (I know Darren has been thinking about this a lot, since I've been talking to him on facebook about it. He definitely seems to have some idea of what he's doing!) (He says that, based on what we've talked about - (the back story of the race etc.) - he's already created an alphabet and has some good ideas about the basic grammar, and because of how the language works, the basic dictionary can then be pretty easily deciphered - everything is really falling together for it, he said.)

Oh - p.s. I have a facebook page up for my story now - (including a map!) - under the name Phillippa Tryndal - (no, it's not my real name ).

So what does everyone think - is it worth it - (though it sounds like Darren's creating one, now, anyway) - and would anyone else be interested in using it if it all works out?

If you want to know any more specifics about the language itself, then just ask - (or you can ask Darren directly on facebook if you want?)

I'm not sure why part of me isn't quite sure about this - creating an entire language does seem a rather big step to make, just for a story like this, yes? (Especially since I won't need it for a while).

EDIT - Addition: I was talking to Darren earlier, and he says that the name I gave to this race, (which I've always had and used), actually really makes sense in the language he's got too, even though it wasn't really planned at all - like he said - everything seems to be 'falling together'.

(I've always called them (they call themselves) the Rah'nuhkii (need to growl the Rah), (that's the best spelling according to Darren - (I used to use Ra'nukai, but Darren said that spelling isn't suitable - (something about differences between nuh, noo, noah and noh, rah, rarr and ray)), and apparently that now means 'I (/me and my race or 'people') will be resurrected' - which is almost perfect considering their back-story. (Kathina, my main characters name works pretty well according to how it sounds too - (kathee'nah means no good-see death).

Yay?

 

[Stella_Omega]

As a reader, I haven't been entertained by a language since the Lord Of The Rings, the first time I read it back in 1972.

What are you describing in this world of yours that cannot be described in the language which I already read?

A sword is a sword. Yanno what I'm saying?

(on the other hand, I Do prefer that the "made up words" in a language follow some sort of linguistic guideline, and I had way too much fun sorting through randomly generated names to set them into family ranks for a SF-F story)

 

[PhillippaT]

Well - it's just that not knowing what they are saying, and then having to figure it out, is part of the story itself. And since I like everything to make some sort of sense, I won't be happy unless it's a 'proper' language - but I just get the feeling I might be biting off more than I can chew. (Though Darren does seem rather happy with what he's got so far...).

I guess I feel that if what we're doing will have more of a use for others, then I won't feel like I'm about to dive off a cliff, hoping the parachte works, (when I haven't packed it myself)?

 

[FrostyZen]

Orson Scott Card says in "HOW TO WRITE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY." to "only use the made-up stuff when it is used for a concept for which there is no English word." Just my two cents and I'm having a sale so you get my two cents worth for half price

 

[PhillippaT]

Orson Scott Card says in "HOW TO WRITE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY." to "only use the made-up stuff when it is used for a concept for which there is no English word." Just my two cents and I'm having a sale so you get my two cents worth for half price

Which makes perfect sense if the reader also has and needs to know what it is they are saying too. But what if they don't - at least at first? What if the story is all about the character learning about the race, including their language, as they progress? That way the reader also learns and follows the same journey of understanding and recognition as the character, (or even characters), yes?

My story is being narrated by one particular character - it's all about her experiences. (Though I'm thinking of adding in a few parts from another character later, if I think it's necessary (and it works)). If this character isn't going to know what this race says when speaking, even if she can report what it sounded like, then why should the reader know? As the character learns more about the race and its language, then so will the reader...

I think it'll work, yes? The character isn't that smart, so I doubt it'll get *that* complicated. (She's going to need/get some English lessons too!) (And since I'll probably be using some of what Darren has discovered, she might not be the only one ). The trick is, of course, not to get too 'bogged down' but since it'll be spread throughout the main second story - (only a little bit will be required for this one, without much explanation) - I think it'll be okay?

 

[jomar]

Readers don't want to work too hard...so having to learn a language will help them put your book down if the story isn't compelling.

You can easily make up stiff on the fly that no one will pay attention to, but if you want to geek it up and have a website for readers to go to and read the back-story and language, well, that could be cool...but mostly fun for you, probably.

 

[jomar]

...What if the story is all about the character learning about the race, including their language, as they progress? That way the reader also learns and follows the same journey of understanding and recognition as the character, (or even characters), yes?

...

I see. You still probably just need a few consistent words before you take it English. You could also use a device to have the character understand the language, like a local herbal drug. Though I sense that it is central to your story to have a developing understanding of language and culture.

 

[Stella_Omega]

if I were to read a story about an Englishman journeying into Russia, I would not want to read it in Russian.

I would expect to read lines like;

My guide grimaced and spoke ever louder, convinced that if only she achieved the proper decibel level, her meaning would be understood by the idiot foreigner.

"I am so terribly sorry," I said helplessly, "But I really can't understand what you're telling me."

Undeterred she tried once more, with illustrative gestures that didn't help.


Language lessons might read like this:


"This is an apple" said the lovely maiden. And once she'd satisfied herself that I butchered her gentle syllables not too badly, I was given it to slake my hunger.

And once the language began to be understandable, I would expect to read thusly;

"I have been a guest of your fair Queen for two months now. I would really like to be on my way."

My listeners nodded their agreement. "Come then," they said, "We will bring you back to your quarters," and hurried me right back to the dungeon cell I had exited.

See? I know they are speaking something else. But I don't have to paw my way through too much of that something else in order to know it.

(plot bunny ahoy!)

 

[PhillippaT]

I see. You still probably just need a few consistent words before you take it English. You could also use a device to have the character understand the language, like a local herbal drug. Though I sense that it is central to your story to have a developing understanding of language and culture.

Don't get me wrong about this - at no point is the reader going to be left on their own in regards to this language - if the character knows what it means then they'll say so - if they don't, then why should the reader - (though of course if they want to go back and translate everything then they can - but that's a reason for reading it more than once, yes? ). Either no-one knows what they're saying, she'll have a translator present - (i.e. Callina) - or she'll be able to translate it herself - (at which point so will the reader anyway, hopefully).

The way I see it, is that the back story of this particular group ('tribe') of this race, the whole race's back-story, and this language will be linked.

Not only that, but having to translate the language within will also be part of the story since it won't always be easy or precise - according to Darren this language can communicate many things simply which English can't, without a longer explanation - (tense and morality are built in to nearly every syllable, apparently), and vice-versa - (though mainly the former). This will of course have an impact on what happens.

Again, the story is supposed to be a 'matter of record,' yes? (we can append a dictionary too, if people want).

*SPOILERS*

This race, (called 'little ugly Orcs' in this story), was invaded by the Orcs, (called the 'big nasty Orcs' in the story), precisely because they'd become fragmented in their homeland - the mountains to the north - into many different tribes all (by then) essentially speaking their own language. Some trade happens between them, but the amount of contact was no longer all that great. One particular member of this race (we never actually find out the actual name of the race itself in the story) while exploring to the east with some members of her tribe ran into some other humans. (I imagine them to be Nordic-types). It was learning to communicate with them, that she gets the idea of creating a 'better' language. So she gets back to her tribe and then gets a message out to others. Another tribe is then formed to the south to try and create another language for their race, (whilst borrowing some important concepts from their previous language, of course).

A short time later the (big nasty) Orcs invade from the north west. This tribe then runs to the south, but get caught and enslaved themselves. Then humans run into the Orcs as they explore up from the south, while fleeing a (civil) war themselves, and the war between them begins - 400 years before the story is set - (the 'big nasty Orcs' use the 'little ugly Orcs' to wage war against the humans). (They're no longer that many Big nasty Orcs around because they feel they've got them under control by this point, mainly by drugging them, but that also means they can't attack in enough numbers to completely invade and enslave the humans either - most of the 'little ugly Orcs' are imprisoned underground).

(The humans were fleeing to the north to escape a civil war that started after they 'thought' the 'main' wars they'd fought against two countries to the south and south-west had 'finished').

The first story is about Kathina learning how to be a Master and a swordswoman, so she can eventually kill the big nasty Orc leader (with help) when the opportunity arises, and allow the little ugly Orcs to free themselves, becoming a 'proper' Master Swordswoman. (They'll capture a 'little-ugly Orc' on the way - (his drugs had worn off) - hence the language, which at this point they'll know nothing of or about).

The second story will be about Kathina taking her role as a Baroness and Master Swordswman, (of Meatonshore - see the map on facebook), (having married a princess too), including a student, starting straight after the first story. Shortly afterwards she gets asked to go and help train the 'little ugly Orcs' (now known as the Rah'nuhkii), to first keep the Orcs at bay, (better to have them fight the Orcs so we don't have to!), then help them start to take back their homeland. (And getting pregnant in the process). Having to deal with being around and part of the Rah'nuhkii, and learning about them, with Callina and Juni (and others), will be the main part of the story. And by finishing off creating her own art, (which starts at the end of the first story), she'll become a Grand Master Swordswoman. Of course, this only matters if I can finish the first one

Getting REALLY ahead of myself, is the third story, (not quite sure how long after the second one). The first part of this story will concern the humans getting used to being around the Rah'nukii, before getting people fleeing north to them from the south again, followed by an army. After defeating the army, (they've planned for this for a long time), Kathina is asked to go and take a message to the south and also find out what is happening. She finds the country completely in despair because their best soldiers are now dead, (having chased some criminals to the north and not returning - I wonder why?), leaving their country now wide open to invasion, which they'd tried a few times since, (the humans left), but managed to be repelled - even those who'd won the civil war decided to try and keep them out. But now they've only got civilians/peasants left and expect to be invaded (and die) quickly. If Kathina can help she can have the country. She sends a messenger (one of her escorts) back to Misiland for help.

Kathina then prepares the civilians/peasants to fight, and wind up standing at the top of the hill overlooking a wide field for battle. Then the 'reinforcements' arrive - including a lot of Rah'nuhkii. They win the battle after she defeats their General in a duel, becoming Queen of their country. The Rah'nuhkii settle there too, which causes some issues. (By this time, some of them know English to listen to, but can't speak it since they can't use all the sounds (no p,b,f,v,m) (thicker skin means having trouble opening and closing their mouths quickly).


@Stella

I've just been talking to Darren about this, and he seems to be of the opinion that the Rah'nuhkii, would be extremely proud of this language 'they've' created - and since they can't speak English and want to be very good friends with Kathina especially - though they'll want to teach it to everyone as much as they can - (even if they're still figuring out a few things about it themselves) - it will form a large part of their interaction. According to Darren, since the whole point about the language is that you only need to know the basics, (alphabet etc. - which will obviously be transliterated), in order to be able to decipher everything and understand it - i.e. it's easy to 'learn' - not knowing or understanding the language itself in any way, will greatly diminish any impact this race has upon the story.

As I said, everything will be translated, but if she hears what they say, she will write it, even if she doesn't understand it.

Since we're not dealing with humans here - or a human language, not many assumptions can be made. If I was travelling in Russia then:

a) Russian is already known and available to learn.
b) They're still human, so much of what we know inherently about people will still be relevant.

Mainly because of a) understanding the viewpoint and perspectives of Russians to write stories about them is not especially hard if done correctly - (it's called research for a reason), and is also available for the readers too to support such writing.

This particular race, yes, is of my own creation, so I could just make all sorts of things up, but because of how I'm going to be using them, any inconsistencies will stand out - (and I hate inconsistency - which is why I now have a map and stuff for my story in the first place! ).

EDIT:

Darren's just stuck the basic alphabet of the language up on google docs:

https://***************/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnEX0NgN37nFdFdUXzQ2aktmVTVNUzdIb1VxeGFUQXc&hl=en_US

(We just need to finish the basic rules of grammar and start figuring out some words, now - (well, we already have a load of words - we just need to enter them into the dictionary)).

 

[Handley_Page]

Before going too far with this, I think you might care to remember the following:-

The Ancient Greeks did not have words for colours (remember the wine-dark sea?).

I'm told that the natives in the far North have about 24 different words for "Snow".

The Romans could not do any serious calculations (they used Greek tables).

Ancient middle-eastern languages did not differentiate between "Sister" & "Wife" (translators of the Bible had this problem).

So your invented language requires a framework which will depend upon the nature & location of the people using it (no point in having phases describing the Moon when you never see it!). This might include the type of work done (why bother with words describing farming when there's no farms?).

Furthermore, is there a need for a degree of "abstraction" ? Do they actually think abstract thoughts?

And that's before we get onto the subject of how (or even if) it's written down. Would that be "squiggle, wavy line, tall thin thing" or ABC ?

Why make it complicated with Ka'huh and similar barely-connected syllables ? Klingon is almost as bad. Think of "Dances with Wolves". There was a man learning a language, but the viewer did not need to !

I think Stella has the right idea. I feel that the story would carry a bit easier.

 

[PhillippaT]

Before going too far with this, I think you might care to remember the following:-

The Ancient Greeks did not have words for colours (remember the wine-dark sea?).

I'm told that the natives in the far North have about 24 different words for "Snow".

The Romans could not do any serious calculations (they used Greek tables).

Ancient middle-eastern languages did not differentiate between "Sister" & "Wife" (translators of the Bible had this problem).

So your invented language requires a framework which will depend upon the nature & location of the people using it (no point in having phases describing the Moon when you never see it!). This might include the type of work done (why bother with words describing farming when there's no farms?).

Darren actually asked me a whole load of questions about all that before we even began, TBH. From what he said, given the nature of the setting etc., (Dark ages->medieval style), even for this particular race, there shouldn't be that much that would really need specific words for - but since this language is built around combinations of syllables that function as words in their own right, with suffixes adding relevant additional information and applications where necessary, he said it shouldn't be too hard to figure out all the necessary words.

How and why this language functions as it does is kind of a half-way house, between what I felt they'd feel is important. based on their old language, including some of the sounds, and more knowledge and insight gained from the interaction with other people, using different languages. Is the language perfect? No - but that's impossible. Darren asked me exactly what types of information/concepts they would consider important and emphasise, and what the overriding philosophy would be for the language in the first place - (easy to learn/decipher being the main thing that matters). This is all based on what I thought would be the case.

We're not quite sure how to organise all the different types of 'things' atm - Darren says he's not sure whether to keep most of it within the associated sounds, or to move a lot of it across to associated properties/applications in combination. (T suffixes.) (He seems to think that the latter is a very powerful function in this language for some reason).

Furthermore, is there a need for a degree of "abstraction" ? Do they actually think abstract thoughts?

What the reader will see in the story is a transliterated report of the actual sounds, and the humans interpretation and opinion of what it means, based on what they are told/informed. Bearing in mind that she'll be present with an interpreter/scholar's etc. to do so for her most of the time, (but not always, in which case all we'll know is what sounds they made and nothing else, unless she's learned enough by then, in which case she'll provide a translation herself in the story).

And that's before we get onto the subject of how (or even if) it's written down. Would that be "squiggle, wavy line, tall thin thing" or ABC ?

I see it being rune like - intended to be carved in stone - (they live in the mountains - lots of stone there) - so lots of straight lines - symbols for each main consonant and verb, with extra lines to denote precisely which 'sub' consonant. I can see them combining the symbols for consonants and verbs to create one for each syllable tbh. (Again, maybe the humans can help them out with ink and paper? ). Not that we'll see any of it

Why make it complicated with Ka'huh and similar barely-connected syllables ? Klingon is almost as bad. Think of "Dances with Wolves". There was a man learning a language, but the viewer did not need to !

Although we've not fully figured out all the rules of grammar - (though we're not sure if they'd be fully figured out consistently by the race itself) - we know that they'll use two types of pauses - a short one between normal words, and longer ones around 'abnormal' words (such as names). We chose to use ' to denote the former, because it better reflects how it would sound - (fast) - when spoken. Because these words are not 'words' in our normal perception, but collections of words in their own right - we merely need to know where one ends and the other begins, but because of that, abnormal words need more attention and emphasis - (including slang - we've got a couple of ideas for that).

I think Stella has the right idea. I feel that the story would carry a bit easier.

TBH - according to what Darren said, creating a language isn't hard - it's just time consuming. But he also said that because of the way this language works - as soon as we get the basics fully into place, it should be easy to work out as we go.

 

[cloudy]

(I've always called them (they call themselves) the Rah'nuhkii (need to growl the Rah), (that's the best spelling according to Darren - (I used to use Ra'nukai, but Darren said that spelling isn't suitable - (something about differences between nuh, noo, noah and noh, rah, rarr and ray)), and apparently that now means 'I (/me and my race or 'people') will be resurrected' - which is almost perfect considering their back-story.

Something you might want to think about:

In almost every tribal, or small scale language, the name of that tribe/group translates to "the people" - almost without exception. You never see some complicated meaning, except in an author-created language.

The Cherokee call themselves the Tslagi, which directly translates to the "people."

I'm Choctaw, and we traditionally refer to ourselves as the "Hacha hatak," which translates to "the river people."

The Ojibwe/Chippewa call themselves the Anishinaabe, again translating to "the people"...

...and so on.

Just a thought.

 

[Handley_Page]

Although we've not fully figured out all the rules of grammar - (though we're not sure if they'd be fully figured out consistently by the race itself) - we know that they'll use two types of pauses - a short one between normal words, and longer ones around 'abnormal' words (such as names).


The longer ones, like we use in English, are to make sure that the word is expressed properly (pronunciation, etc.).

I suspect that the resulting language could be quite impressive, but the story is not supposed to be a language lesson !

 

[PhillippaT]

Something you might want to think about:

In almost every tribal, or small scale language, the name of that tribe/group translates to "the people" - almost without exception. You never see some complicated meaning, except in an author-created language.

The Cherokee call themselves the Tslagi, which directly translates to the "people."

I'm Choctaw, and we traditionally refer to ourselves as the "Hacha hatak," which translates to "the river people."

The Ojibwe/Chippewa call themselves the Anishinaabe, again translating to "the people"...

...and so on.

Just a thought.

Well, the humans in this story, (and therefore the narrator, and by extension, the reader), never actually learn what it is they call themselves as a RACE.

The name, Rah'nuhkii, (growl the Rah), (tansliterated), is the name this 'tribe', (there are probably too many to consider it a single, 'normal' tribe), has chosen to call themselves since being enslaved - (all those that have been enslaved by the Orcs within this particular place, and have been born since, in captivity) - as an expression of hope - of being 'resurrected' - freed from the Orcs, and becoming what they were, hopefully by taking back their homeland in the future. (This particular future will probably not be written by me - they only get as far as merely defending the land they have in my plans for the second story).

The longer ones, like we use in English, are to make sure that the word is expressed properly (pronunciation, etc.).

I suspect that the resulting language could be quite impressive, but the story is not supposed to be a language lesson !

Well, I'm not intending it to be the only concept the story is about

In becoming part of the 'tribe', Kathina will have to learn the language they use as she goes along - sure most of the time she'll have a translator present, but they'll expect her to learn for herself, and she will. The reader will always be given an additional translation if possible - (the only time it's not will be when they first 'meet' a non-drugged Rah'nukiin in the first story, at which point 'no-one' will know what any of it means in English, anyway, and so neither will the reader).
The reason I'm doing this, is because it's the only outcome that will make sense for the second story itself.

Put it this way - do you think that anyone could truly describe the process of becoming a full member of an/your? (Native American?) tribe, in it's traditional ways and setting, WITHOUT involving your language in any way?

P.s. Darren sent me an additional email, and I'm wondering if anyone would like to see an 'equivalent' for such basic descriptions for the English Language?

(In short, would anyone like a quick English lesson? (Note that the reason I ask, is according to Darren, this is NOT fully recognised and understood at this time - the dictionaries/encyclopedias etc. are wrong)).

 

[cloudy]

Put it this way - do you think that anyone could truly describe the process of becoming a full member of an/your? (Native American?) tribe, in it's traditional ways and setting, WITHOUT involving your language in any way?

In short: yes, absolutely.

There are very, very few fluent speakers of the Choctaw language left. Most band members have a few words, the slang expressions, and of course, the obscene words, but knowing the language isn't in any way a prerequisite for being accepted.

My ex-significant other is Ojibwe, and I moved up there with him to his reserve. I didn't know a single word of Abishinaabe, but was accepted as a full band member without question. I still don't speak it even close to fluently, but picked up phrases and slang here and there (it helped that all the road signs are in Anish).

I believe most people are more concerned with a person's character and personality than they are that person's language skills when it comes to whether they are accepted into a group or not.

 

[PhillippaT]

In short: yes, absolutely.

There are very, very few fluent speakers of the Choctaw language left. Most band members have a few words, the slang expressions, and of course, the obscene words, but knowing the language isn't in any way a prerequisite for being accepted.

My ex-significant other is Ojibwe, and I moved up there with him to his reserve. I didn't know a single word of Abishinaabe, but was accepted as a full band member without question. I still don't speak it even close to fluently, but picked up phrases and slang here and there (it helped that all the road signs are in Anish).

I believe most people are more concerned with a person's character and personality than they are that person's language skills when it comes to whether they are accepted into a group or not.

Hmm - perhaps my explanation of 'traditional ways and setting' wasn't precise enough.

I guess an analogy will never be precise enough, so trying to explain will be hard - the 'tribe' that call themselves the Rah'nuhkii in the story have a very specific back-story related to the language they use - the only reason they wind up where they are - (south of the mountains they lived in) - and in their situation of being forced to fight the humans - is because they decided to separate from the rest of their race briefly, as an independent tribe, based on the new language they were learning and creating. (They were planning on re-integrating once that had happened, but the Orc invasion ensured it never did).

This is now the only language they know and are capable of using - since nearly every other language works in an incompatible manner that they literally have trouble understanding. In short, they can only interact with their own language - no one else's, certainly not English, also for physical reasons - they physically can't use the sounds f,v,p,b or m. (This doesn't mean that they can't learn anything to do with English, in order to recognise it, but only bits and pieces).

The whole point about the second story is Kathina (aswell as her companions) and this tribe coming to know, understand and love each other, and finding out how similar they are, as she helps them keep the Orcs at bay, (mainly by teaching them to swordfight).

 

[cloudy]

Hmm - perhaps my explanation of 'traditional ways and setting' wasn't precise enough.

I guess an analogy will never be precise enough, so trying to explain will be hard - the 'tribe' that call themselves the Rah'nuhkii in the story have a very specific back-story related to the language they use - the only reason they wind up where they are - (south of the mountains they lived in) - and in their situation of being forced to fight the humans - is because they decided to separate from the rest of their race briefly, as an independent tribe, based on the new language they were learning and creating. (They were planning on re-integrating once that had happened, but the Orc invasion ensured it never did).

This is now the only language they know and are capable of using - since nearly every other language works in an incompatible manner that they literally have trouble understanding. In short, they can only interact with their own language - no one else's, certainly not English, also for physical reasons - they physically can't use the sounds f,v,p,b or m. (This doesn't mean that they can't learn anything to do with English, in order to recognise it, but only bits and pieces).

The whole point about the second story is Kathina (aswell as her companions) and this tribe coming to know, understand and love each other, and finding out how similar they are, as she helps them keep the Orcs at bay, (mainly by teaching them to swordfight).

*shrug* It's your story, so write it however you decide, of course.

However, with that said, if I was spending that much time on one seemingly tiny aspect of the story as a whole, I would begin to wonder if I was wasting my time on minutiae because I didn't want to, or couldn't finish the story.

Just my $.02

 

[PhillippaT]

*shrug* It's your story, so write it however you decide, of course.

However, with that said, if I was spending that much time on one seemingly tiny aspect of the story as a whole, I would begin to wonder if I was wasting my time on minutiae because I didn't want to, or couldn't finish the story.

Just my $.02

Ahhhh, here's the brilliance of my plan, you see - a friend of mine is really doing all the work on this so I don't have to (Darren Tomlyn). (I think he just finds it an interesting thing to do/exercise, given his work with language anyway).

(I'm still working on part 10 whenever I can, though I find it hard to multi-task that - (need to be in the right kind of mood) - so it varies just how much I get done and when).

 

[Stella_Omega]

Your fixation on the language specifics reminds me of the way someone will fixate on "What does an orgasm feel like?" or body parts measurements, or any other detail that might be a part of a story, but can also be an impediment to the forward momentum of the story.

Fonr one friend of mine, it's conversations, which she seems to be compelled to write in excruciating detail, complete with side tracks and also-- every facial tic and expression. She can write thousands of words of this, that have pleasant moments but take the story nowhere at all.

For someone else, it's theory-- he'll explain the anthropological theory behind the actions he describes. That his school of anthro is based on bullshit doesn't make this any easier to get through, or add anything to anyone's reading pleasure.

The name, Rah'nuhkii, (growl the Rah), (tansliterated), is the name this 'tribe', (there are probably too many to consider it a single, 'normal' tribe), has chosen to call themselves since being enslaved - (all those that have been enslaved by the Orcs within this particular place, and have been born since, in captivity) - as an expression of hope - of being 'resurrected' - freed from the Orcs, and becoming what they were, hopefully by taking back their homeland in the future. (This particular future will probably not be written by me - they only get as far as merely defending the land they have in my plans for the second story).

Okay, so what we have is a species of sentient beings who have been enslaved by a different species. They hope to free themselves.

Their speech has a growling timbre and glottal stops. The tribes tend to rename themselves to reflect their current living conditions.

Knowing that, I want to read just a few specimen words. My experience is, if I have to learn a new language to read a fantasy novel, I'll find another book to read instead...


I do want to say that Orcs, by the way, are the sole literary invention of J.R.R. Tolkein and really shouldn't be referenced in an original work despite the D&D-ers adoption of them. But I realise that two-and a haf generations have grown up now with "Orc" firmly in their minds as an existing mythic race, just like fairies and dwarves and mermaids. Which is kind of cool, when you think about it-- that's the power of genius, right there.

 

[PhillippaT]

Your fixation on the language specifics reminds me of the way someone will fixate on "What does an orgasm feel like?" or body parts measurements, or any other detail that might be a part of a story, but can also be an impediment to the forward momentum of the story.

Not really, because interaction with members of this race that belong to this group/tribe that have then been freed, will form a large foundation of the second 'book', just like interaction between PEOPLE is the main foundation of the first - (and really ANY story dealing with interaction between people - (which you'd normally expect for stories about sex and love etc.)).

Their speech has a growling timbre and glottal stops. The tribes tend to rename themselves to reflect their current living conditions.

Not tribes, plural, just this 'one', given their circumstances.


-----------

Knowing that, I want to read just a few specimen words. My experience is, if I have to learn a new language to read a fantasy novel, I'll find another book to read instead...

But that's the thing - you don't HAVE to learn anything - it's only there because Kathina is reporting on what happens, and what SHE learns too, and because of that, she'll provide all and any translations as and if necessary.

I do want to say that Orcs, by the way, are the sole literary invention of J.R.R. Tolkein and really shouldn't be referenced in an original work despite the D&D-ers adoption of them. But I realise that two-and a haf generations have grown up now with "Orc" firmly in their minds as an existing mythic race, just like fairies and dwarves and mermaids. Which is kind of cool, when you think about it-- that's the power of genius, right there.

http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/9077-did-he-invent-orcs-2.html

It appears to depend on what you mean by 'invention' - though yes, both my big-nasty and little-ugly Orcs have probably been affected by watching the LOTR films, somewhat

 

[PennLady]

But that's the thing - you don't HAVE to learn anything - it's only there because Kathina is reporting on what happens, and what SHE learns too, and because of that, she'll provide all and any translations as and if necessary.

I've been kind of following this, so sorry if I missed anything. But if she's going to be providing a translation, why does she have to say it twice? If I don't have to learn it, then why not start off with a bit in your language, then switch to "English," so to speak. By that I mean, write the dialogue in English, with a note at some point about "X continued in [language]."

This doesn't seem so different from another thread that was going, about how much of a foreign language to include in a story. One thing I think most contributors thought in that line was that providing both the original language and a translation was pretty clunky. Better to provide a line or two in the language and then go to "English."

 

[PhillippaT]

I've been kind of following this, so sorry if I missed anything. But if she's going to be providing a translation, why does she have to say it twice? If I don't have to learn it, then why not start off with a bit in your language, then switch to "English," so to speak. By that I mean, write the dialogue in English, with a note at some point about "X continued in [language]."

This doesn't seem so different from another thread that was going, about how much of a foreign language to include in a story. One thing I think most contributors thought in that line was that providing both the original language and a translation was pretty clunky. Better to provide a line or two in the language and then go to "English."

The difference with that - is that all that is dealing with humans and human behaviour, knowledge and understanding, meaning other languages and what they represent are also known and understood in relation to people - not so here.

They'll also be a some argument and discussion about such translations in the story, since the way their language works can make some translations tricky. Giving the reader access to the original speech, with the basics of what it represents - (the information in the spreadsheet Darren created) - will give the reader more insight into such discussions, behaviour and opinions of those in the story, IF THEY SO WISH. (The information in the spreadsheet (and more) will probably be an appendix to the story).

I'll do my best to keep their use of the language concise, (the language itself will probably help with that), and sporadic as possible, but it will be necessary to use it 'fairly' often, given what the (second) story is about.

 

[Stella_Omega]

But that's the thing - you don't HAVE to learn anything - it's only there because Kathina is reporting on what happens, and what SHE learns too, and because of that, she'll provide all and any translations as and if necessary.

My friend's reasoning is that she's reporting what her characters say, too-- in stultifying detail and length. Damned if I can get her to the next point plot, either. Just-- don't let yourself fall into that trap. As you say above, keep it concise, and always, always pertinent to the story's needs.

http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/9077-did-he-invent-orcs-2.html

It appears to depend on what you mean by 'invention' - though yes, both my big-nasty and little-ugly Orcs have probably been affected by watching the LOTR films, somewhat

I read a discussion on where he picked up the name from, which is kind of a different question.

Orcs are a creature of Tolkein's creating, called "Middle Earth," as much as Tom Bombadil and hobbits are. He could have called them "jeens" and you'd get people talking about the eastern antecedent "Djin" and "afreet" but "jeens" as Tolkein's construct has them, did not have exist before he'd written them.

So I guess what I'm asking is, if you are so intent on inventing an entire language for one group of your critters, why not invent one new name for your other group? (And I have to say that "the humans call them "orcs"" is perfectly acceptable reason for that-- it's just exactly what humans would do, after all)

 

[PhillippaT]

My friend's reasoning is that she's reporting what her characters say, too-- in stultifying detail and length. Damned if I can get her to the next point plot, either. Just-- don't let yourself fall into that trap. As you say above, keep it concise, and always, always pertinent to the story's needs.

Well, she'll just be reporting on what she remembers, as she's been told to do, and their speech 'will' be something she'll remember, precisely 'because' it's different and new.

I read a discussion on where he picked up the name from, which is kind of a different question.

Orcs are a creature of Tolkein's creating, called "Middle Earth," as much as Tom Bombadil and hobbits are. He could have called them "jeens" and you'd get people talking about the eastern antecedent "Djin" and "afreet" but "jeens" as Tolkein's construct has them, did not have exist before he'd written them.

So I guess what I'm asking is, if you are so intent on inventing an entire language for one group of your critters, why not invent one new name for your other group? (And I have to say that "the humans call them "orcs"" is perfectly acceptable reason for that-- it's just exactly what humans would do, after all)

Well, the latter explains it all, really - I've called them Orcs, precisely 'because' that's what humanity is now using the word to describe, be it in LOTR first, to World of Warcraft etc.. (Blame the Xerox effect? ).

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well, she'll just be reporting on what she remembers, as she's been told to do, and their speech 'will' be something she'll remember, precisely 'because' it's different and new.



Well, the latter explains it all, really - I've called them Orcs, precisely 'because' that's what humanity is now using the word to describe, be it in LOTR first, to World of Warcraft etc.. (Blame the Xerox effect? ).

see, I'm the kind of language geek that would demand that you explain that in context, in the novel.

How many years forward is that? And humans remember Tolkien that long. Gives us a sense of location.