History. mythology, or what?

[CharleyH]

This is an historical slash philosophy, and slash existential sort of thread.

It is a harsh reality story I am writing that makes me ask.

Combine Nazi germany with current American wish to invade Iran/ already Iraq. Go to war in Iran for the guise of democracy . . . ug . . nonetheless, it is NOT my intention to offend or inflame, but rather start an intelligent discussion.

In research, very not-erotic, I have read, well, many books, but two stand out.

C. Kere'nyi's The heroes of the Greeks and
Daniel Jonah Goldhagan's 'Hitler's willing executioners: ordinary German's and the holocaust'

I will, when people are ready for my real question ask it. No, I dont think asking right now is kosher. SO, here are the questions in Lit:

How different is the hero from the villian?

If Kere'nyi states 'Heroes appear before us as IF they really existed', then do villians really exist in context?

Or if heroes write history? Which we are subject too, and must believe it? Should we not also look at the alternate history, of the defeated?

How does an ordinary person like you or I defeat Nazi Germany, past, so more pointedly, current American political ideology? How, if government is doing something wrong, do you or I stand up and say it?

If the majority says, for example, going into Iran and taking it over in the guise of democracy . . . how different is this from the 1940s? Do WE believe our government? What do we do if we do not?

How do WE as ordinary, every day beings DEFEAT the government? The ideology?

I bring up Nazi Germany in this context for a very specific reason. Anyone want to give a go at it?

 

[Guest]

My apologies. I misunderstood.

EDIT: Maybe I didn't misunderstand.

 

[haldir]

CharleyH - good on you.

Heroes v villains

Well I guess it depends on which side you view them from. For the Greeks at Troy Achilles was a hero. For the Trojans he was a villain. Get my drift? Up to the day that he was released from prison, Nelson Mandela was vilified by the western powers - nothing was done to help him or his cause. Hero or villain -what do you all think?

As for the Holocaust - this is something that I have studied in depth for many years - in an attempt to understand how such an atrocity could happen and I have to say that my conclusion is scary.

Most of those involved were ordinary people like you and me. They were not psychos - thats the cop-out. It could easily happen again - and I think it will, just look at the crusade (and I choose my word with care) against muslims. Detention without trial, without representation, without limit of time - how long before we in the west just kill them?

Can we defeat governments - hell yes! But it takes individuals who are prepared to sacrifice everything to start the avalanche - but it will happen.

 

[oggbashan]

...
How does an ordinary person like you or I defeat Nazi Germany, past, so more pointedly, current American political ideology?

How do WE as ordinary, every day beings DEFEAT the government? The ideology?

I bring up Nazi Germany in this context for a very specific reason. Anyone want to give a go at it?

Stand up and be counted on the little things. Use your democratic rights to challenge anything, especially at a local level, that you think is wrong.

Engage in reasoned debate with your opponents and be prepared to believe that they are not evil but misled.

Persuade people that you can be against your government's policy without being necessarily Godless or Un-American.

Do not believe that slogans are truth or that the answer to every issue is either right or wrong. Politics is the art of the possible and the art of compromise.

Try to modify the administration's actions so that they are acceptable to people who voted for it and those who didn't by lobbying your representatives. A letter is worth more than an e-mail; an e-mail is worth more than a signature on a petition; a signature on a petition is worth more than a placard; a placard is worth more than a yelled slogan. A personal word is worth more than many letters. Tell your representatives politely and with considered words what you think on EVERY issue that concerns you.

Those statements would be true whichever party you voted for and whichever government is in power. Democratic governments govern with the consent of the people. The more informed and articulate the electorate is, the better the government of whatever colour is likely to be.

Og

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Let me get this straight, You want to compare the US to Nazi Germany?

What kind of drugs are you taking?

I think she's asking that if the winners write The History, what is the difference between heroes and vilains?

US policy today is to invade certain countries around to world as a means to self-defense through the spread of US-style Democracy; Nazi Germany policy was to invade its neighbouring countries as a means to self-defense through expanding its borders. Both just want(ed) "breathing room".

In this context, what is the difference between heroes and vilains? More than between heroic and vile "ideologies", between heroic and vile "common people" on either side of fence.

 

[CharleyH]

What Bush is doing is pretty damn close Dran. Gonna follow him? :|

Let me get this straight, You want to compare the US to Nazi Germany?

What kind of drugs are you taking?

 

[CharleyH]

I get you. The more I read, the more frightening how you and I, could get involved, but there it happend, and I see something similar . . . .NOW. What will we do?

CharleyH - good on you.

Heroes v villains

Well I guess it depends on which side you view them from. For the Greeks at Troy Achilles was a hero. For the Trojans he was a villain. Get my drift? Up to the day that he was released from prison, Nelson Mandela was vilified by the western powers - nothing was done to help him or his cause. Hero or villain -what do you all think?

As for the Holocaust - this is something that I have studied in depth for many years - in an attempt to understand how such an atrocity could happen and I have to say that my conclusion is scary.

Most of those involved were ordinary people like you and me. They were not psychos - thats the cop-out. It could easily happen again - and I think it will, just look at the crusade (and I choose my word with care) against muslims. Detention without trial, without representation, without limit of time - how long before we in the west just kill them?

Can we defeat governments - hell yes! But it takes individuals who are prepared to sacrifice everything to start the avalanche - but it will happen.

 

[oggbashan]

What Bush is doing is pretty damn close Dran. Gonna follow him? :|

If you believe that Bush and his administration is as evil as the Nazis under Hitler then either your knowledge of history is flawed or your sense of perspective is.

You have no hope of influencing or modifying the actions of your democratically elected government unless you can persuade others INCLUDING those who voted for Bush that what the administration intends to do is bad for all citizens of the US.

You need to engage in rational debate, not in unfair and unjust comparisons.

How many people in your neighbourhood have 'disappeared' in the night? How many people are watching every word you say and a wrong one would make you disappear as well? How many people are hiding from the snatch squads? Are your children being taught to rat on their parents if they say a word against the government? If those conditions do not apply then the current administration is nothing like Hitler's Germany.

Og

 

[Lauren Hynde]

How many people in your neighbourhood have 'disappeared' in the night? How many people are watching every word you say and a wrong one would make you disappear as well? How many people are hiding from the snatch squads? Are your children being taught to rat on their parents if they say a word against the government? If those conditions do not apply then the current administration is nothing like Hitler's Germany.

Og, I think that is exactly why the question of the hero vs. the villain must be asked.

Imagine that in twenty years the US has crumbled after losing the war against Muslim "insurgents". Won't the history books speak of how many people disappeared in the middle of the night in 2004 in Iraq? How many people were detained by the snatch squads without trial, representation, or charge?

What is the difference as far as the common people go?

 

[LadyJeanne]

I would make a comparison with imperialist colonial expansion rather than Hitler's Germany. The motivations of the Bush administration in the Middle East are primarily related to securing our oil economy, in my view.

Hero? Villain?

*shrug*

Real Politik

 

[oggbashan]

Og, I think that is exactly why the question of the hero vs. the villain must be asked.

Imagine that in twenty years the US has crumbled after losing the war against Muslim "insurgents". Won't the history books speak of how many people disappeared in the middle of the night in 2004 in Iraq? How many people were detained by the snatch squads without trial, representation, or charge?

What is the difference as far as the common people go?

The difference is plain. It is not part of US (or UK) government policy in Iraq to kill people without trial nor to make them permanently 'disappear'. If people are detained their relatives know or can find out where they are being held without risking being shot for asking.

The names of all those at Guantanomo Bay are known and lawyers are arguing for them. Today one of those returned to the UK has been released from prison unconditionally.

The actions and policies of the occupying forces in Iraq are being constantly monitored and reported by a free press, in English and Arabic (and German, French, Japanese etc.).

You, and I, have the right to ask 'What is happening?' and to be critical. In Hitler's Germany many of us contributing to the political thread would have been shot. In Iraq the occupying forces do not shoot people for words. They shoot people who have guns in their hands and are an immediate threat.

Og

 

[CharleyH]

Re: Re: History. mythology, or what?

Stand up and be counted on the little things. Use your democratic rights to challenge anything, especially at a local level, that you think is wrong.

Engage in reasoned debate with your opponents and be prepared to believe that they are not evil but misled.

Persuade people that you can be against your government's policy without being necessarily Godless or Un-American.

Do not believe that slogans are truth or that the answer to every issue is either right or wrong. Politics is the art of the possible and the art of compromise.

Try to modify the administration's actions so that they are acceptable to people who voted for it and those who didn't by lobbying your representatives. A letter is worth more than an e-mail; an e-mail is worth more than a signature on a petition; a signature on a petition is worth more than a placard; a placard is worth more than a yelled slogan. A personal word is worth more than many letters. Tell your representatives politely and with considered words what you think on EVERY issue that concerns you.

Those statements would be true whichever party you voted for and whichever government is in power. Democratic governments govern with the consent of the people. The more informed and articulate the electorate is, the better the government of whatever colour is likely to be.

Og

And if you are asked for example, to put a small chip in YOUR arm, saying you can or cannot buy food, get over the border whatever. Will you or not? What are YOU going to do? I see it going this way . . . the way of fraud, you are a fraud.

Suppose, for a moment, you cannot do anything unless you have this chip in your arm, as in you cannot eat. Suppose for a second, having this chip to eat means that you must also support the government in "helping" the coup in another country in order to impliment democracy . . . suppose, you might go to war to promote democracy in a country that does not want that version of democracy. To kill, to change, for what?

Do you support that? Because this is what the regular people of Hitlers germany supported.

ARE YOU as a regular person, with no past agression NOT going to use your sudden power? Are we better than another. Is this NOT going to happen again?

Are we subject to the same propoganda?

Yes, I think we are.

We believe in our governments blindly.

Can we be ordinary people brought to power to the point of gassing, beating, raping? Do we learn from history?

Apparently not.

 

[Guest]

If you believe that Bush and his administration is as evil as the Nazis under Hitler then either your knowledge of history is flawed or your sense of perspective is.

You have no hope of influencing or modifying the actions of your democratically elected government unless you can persuade others INCLUDING those who voted for Bush that what the administration intends to do is bad for all citizens of the US.

You need to engage in rational debate, not in unfair and unjust comparisons.

How many people in your neighbourhood have 'disappeared' in the night? How many people are watching every word you say and a wrong one would make you disappear as well? How many people are hiding from the snatch squads? Are your children being taught to rat on their parents if they say a word against the government? If those conditions do not apply then the current administration is nothing like Hitler's Germany.

Og

And when did the US start mass executions of jews and blacks? Or any other group for that matter? Seems to me it was Saddam who was into genocide, Not bush.

Hitler hid his weapons of war from inspectors and claimed what he did have was purely for the defence of his country. And he did so right up to the very day he sent those troops and weapons outside Germany's borders. Hmmm... That sounds vaguely familiar too.

Hitler believed he should be the supreme ruler (read dictator) of the entire world and was on his way to attemting to take over the entire world and force his will on ALL of us. Hmmmm... Hussein takes over Kuwait, giving him money and resources with which to defeat his arch-rival Iran. That in turn gives him the resources to take Suadia and, oh hell King Hussein was his brother I'm sure he wouldn't mind giving up Jordan for the cause. Then he could take Libya. And Lebonon. Then maybe he would have the strength to take on Israel and her allies. Then the rest of africa. Then europe. And so on. All the while forcing his will on whatever countries he took over.

I don'rt see the US doing anything of the sort. We liberated their country and gave the people a voice in their government. Something they never had before.

Maybe that IS the same kind of evil Hitler used. Seems to me I read somewhere that WWII never really happened it was all just movies made in Hollywood and Hitler was really a nice guy who just wanted to keep the world safe and peaceful. [/ sarcasm]


But I don't think so.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: History. mythology, or what?

And if you are asked for example, to put a small chip in YOUR arm, saying you can or cannot buy food, get over the border whatever. Will you or not? What are YOU going to do? I see it going this way . . . the way of fraud, you are a fraud.

Suppose, for a moment, you cannot do anything unless you have this chip in your arm, as in you cannot eat. Suppose for a second, having this chip to eat means that you must also support the government in "helping" the coup in another country in order to impliment democracy . . . suppose, you might go to war to promote democracy in a country that does not want that version of democracy. To kill, to change, for what?

Do you support that? Because this is what the regular people of Hitlers germany supported.

ARE YOU as a regular person, with no past agression NOT going to use your sudden power? Are we better than another. Is this NOT going to happen again?

Are we subject to the same propoganda?

Yes, I think we are.

We believe in our governments blindly.

Can we be ordinary people brought to power to the point of gassing, beating, raping? Do we learn from history?

Apparently not.

OK. Let me go back to my original question:

What kind of drugs are you on?

I'm done with you now. Carry on.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

In Iraq the occupying forces do not shoot people for words. They shoot people who have guns in their hands and are an immediate threat.

Og

That is what you know now. Imagine that in twenty years the US has crumbled after losing the war against Muslim "insurgents". Do you think that is what will be taught to your children?

That's what the thread is about: perception of heros vs. villains. It is not about politics.

Perception.

Were all the people in Nazi Germany villains? Or did actually believe that they were protecting themselves by helping their government expanding its ideology and borders at the expense of non-Arians, the same way you believe you're protecting yourself by helping your government exapanding its ideology at the expense of Muslim terrorists (otherwise known as freedom-fighters, depending on the outcome)?

 

[oggbashan]

Re: Re: Re: History. mythology, or what?

And if you are asked for example, to put a small chip in YOUR arm, saying you can or cannot buy food, get over the border whatever. Will you or not? What are YOU going to do? I see it going this way . . . the way of fraud, you are a fraud.

Suppose, for a moment, you cannot do anything unless you have this chip in your arm, as in you cannot eat. Suppose for a second, having this chip to eat means that you must also support the government in "helping" the coup in another country in order to impliment democracy . . . suppose, you might go to war to promote democracy in a country that does not want that version of democracy. To kill, to change, for what?

Do you support that? Because this is what the regular people of Hitlers germany supported.

ARE YOU as a regular person, with no past agression NOT going to use your sudden power? Are we better than another. Is this NOT going to happen again?

Are we subject to the same propoganda?

Yes, I think we are.

We believe in our governments blindly.

Can we be ordinary people brought to power to the point of gassing, beating, raping? Do we learn from history?

Apparently not.

I am sorry that you cannot see the difference. All you 'suppose' is not going to happen unless the people in your democracy vote for it.

You in the US do NOT believe your governments blindly. Neither do we in the UK. Politicians come below used car salesmen in our esteem.

Yes, people can be persuaded that other people are different, subhuman, not worthy of being treated as human. Yet in this country and all of Europe trying to suggest that some people are less than other people is a crime. We HAVE learned from our history.

We take great care in this country to distinguish between Al-Queda and Muslims. We have a large Muslim community here. Only a tiny minority have any connection, however tenuous, with any terrorist organisation. The majority of Muslims condemn terrorism just as much as the rest of our citizens. The Muslims among us suffer far more as a result of implied association than is justified. Yet the terrorists claim to be Muslim.

We suffered for years from IRA terrorism. Did we arrest everybody who had an Irish accent? No. Citizens of the Republic of Ireland and of Ulster were permitted to travel to and from the mainland of Great Britain freely - except those few who were known to have connections with the IRA. Did the bombing campaign change our people's attitude? No.

The terrorists succeed if they can modify our laws to make all of us less free. There are many organisations here fighting to ensure that our freedoms are defended.

Og

 

[BooMerengue]

'Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary German's and the Holocaust' by Daniel Jonah Goldhagan is a very scary book.

I don't think Americans are blind to their government, though I do think we're a bit more complacent then we should be.

Og is right... Raise your voices. It does work!

 

[Couture]

Combine Nazi germany with current American wish to invade Iran/ already Iraq. Go to war in Iran for the guise of democracy . . . ug . . nonetheless, it is NOT my intention to offend or inflame, but rather start an intelligent discussion.

I disagree with you. I necessarily care much for the policies of the current American administration, but very little comparison can be made between them to Hitler and the Nazi party.

One that can be made is the desire for empire. The current neocon objective is to extend the American empire. And historical texts don't look too badly on empires.

Hitler is looked on badly for two reasons. One, he failed in attempt for empire. Second, is the whole killing of the jews thing.

When the US starts exterminating whole populations, give us a call.

 

[Op_Cit]

The difference is plain. It is not part of US (or UK) government policy in Iraq to kill people without trial nor to make them permanently 'disappear'. If people are detained their relatives know or can find out where they are being held without risking being shot for asking.

Not so fast Og.

There was a case out of Arizona last year as I recall about a mother not getting information on a son that was taken away. And the courts upheld the secrecy.

And as far as I know, in the US, the courts are still turning a blind eye to the representation issue.

I haven't yet seen anyone get shot for asking, but I am aware of some that have asked about relatives having the focus of the government shifted to them for asking.

And I have already seen the anti terrorism laws used to hold native, anglosaxon americans. I know of a case where one individual was diabetic and denied medical care.

There was a man picked up in OKC the day after the bombing there who was beaten and tortured to death, inside the federal police station.

It's been going on for a long time and will continue.

I asked this before on another thread:

What was the difference between the US farmer of 1942 and his German counterpart of 1939 when it came to his (japanese/jewish) neighbor being loaded up on a train?

Do you think the average German could imagine the "final solution" that was intended?

 

[Op_Cit]

Bottom line is those who write history decide who were the good guys and the bad guys.

There was an interesting book out last year written by a british fellow who was a fan of Lincoln (strangely still is) .

In his research into contemporary writings he was shocked to find out how villified Lincoln was in the north. How some northern newspaper editorials had been written practically, and in some cases actually, openly, calling for Lincoln's assassination. In short: at the time, there was only a small faction of people that liked Lincoln.

Yet your average schoolboy over here tends to put Washington and Lincoln as the two greatest/most honorable people in American history.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I'll take a stab at it

My understanding is that you are asking this so that we come up with a theoretical scenario based on factual events from history, correct? I’ll assume yes for now, and then you can yell at me if I am wrong.

Historically speaking there were those in the time of Nazi ruling where ordinary citizens and some officers did try to tell the world of what was going on, look into Vatican II. The Vatican knew, the US. President knew, many knew and stood by until it was too late.
Do we really think today would be any different? We know of the slaughter in the African nations, we know how people had their hands cut off, men, women and children. We know of, I believe it was a European country who’s name escapes me at this time, so excuse me, where a sect locked it’s followers in buildings and then set them on fire. Everyday atrocities against other humans are committed, known of and allowed to happen. So we understand that the Nazi regime was not the only group that committed genocide…and yes, I know there are others that need be mentioned.

That said, let’s say the American Government took over Iran.

(This is Hypothetical so don’t jump on me, it’s my perspective)

We set up installations (camps?) to hold those we deem as insurgents and terrorists. We justify it by revealing how these Mideastern people have no understanding of Democracy and will ruin the chance for everyone else to have a country liberated from their oppressing government that is now no longer in power. To do so we must show of military force, incur curfews, investigate and close businesses that may be not beneficial to the new democracy. We build schools where we can teach the new society about the real history of the world, how God fit’s in the picture and how one day they can be a nation such as the one that is controlling them now…once we get rid of all the wrong people that live there.

Now we can let the media show how we are saving these poor souls and giving them freedom, of course off camera we can abuse those insurgents and terrorists. We will allow only certain information to be made available, only certain questions will be answered and all is controlled by the military/government. Those who do not comply may suffer the consequences or live in fear of what may happen to their loved ones at home.

Insurgents who are hiding will be bombed out of their homes, yes, there will be many civilian casualties, but we didn’t know those children were in there at the time. We will have to bury bodies in mass graves for the purpose of disease spreading. There will be proper time to mourn and a place where they can be mourned after given a semi-decent Christian burial.

Mosques will be torn down or renovated and anything of worth will be “warehoused” for the future when we finally leave this country to stand on it’s own. No more Ayatollahs or Shahs, they are of the past regimes that were ‘evil’. Our intentions are only good. We will take over businesses and the oil companies to “insure’’ that they will be safe and run efficiently, we will use their money wisely to make sure this happens, why in fact we will even sell the oil at a fair rate. Granted some people will make money, but clever accountants will make sure no one knows the wiser.

As we ‘rebuild’ this country, a few people of good conscience will stop and say…”This is wrong, the world must know what’s going on here.” They will take their information, their photos, their eyewitness accounts to someone in a higher power. They will either be made out to be liars or someone out to make a dollar creating these tales that are far from the truth. Perhaps the evidence will be lost, it happens you know. They will fight and holler, some will give up, others will be punished or disappear.
Decades later, someone will find out the truth and expose it, then the world powers will cover their mouths and act shocked. “How could this have happened.” They will cry out and soon survivors and facts will all come out and we will once again wait for the next “It can never happen again” time to come around. History will be rewritten, heroes and villains will switch places, people will talk in hushed whispers and students will read about it making vows that the next generation will not make the same mistake.
In the eyes of those who hated the former regime or powers that were, will see us as heroes. Those who found the old ways to be the right one will see us as villains. Is it then the perspective of the group or of the individual to decide who is good and who is evil?

 

[CharleyH]

If you believe that Bush and his administration is as evil as the Nazis under Hitler then either your knowledge of history is flawed or your sense of perspective is.

You have no hope of influencing or modifying the actions of your democratically elected government unless you can persuade others INCLUDING those who voted for Bush that what the administration intends to do is bad for all citizens of the US.

Og

And the crux of my question. Well Ogg, no one really questioned them for a lot of years . . . did they? And look what happened . . . Am I wrong?

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I think she's asking that if the winners write The History, what is the difference between heroes and vilains?

US policy today is to invade certain countries around to world as a means to self-defense through the spread of US-style Democracy; Nazi Germany policy was to invade its neighbouring countries as a means to self-defense through expanding its borders. Both just want(ed) "breathing room".

In this context, what is the difference between heroes and vilains? More than between heroic and vile "ideologies", between heroic and vile "common people" on either side of fence.

The difference in hero and Villain? It's who you ask.

"Mush" Morton was an American hero, captain of the famed submarine Wahoo.He sank 108,000 tons of Japanese shipping. To Americans, he was a determined, agressive hero. To japanese he was a murderer, sending unarmed merchant hulls to the bottom with no warning.

All ideology is heroic. No one casts their ideology in terms that show it to be grasping or petty or vindictive. Even simple vengence is elevated to Justice or retribution. Ideologys always make an emotional appeal on top of whatever reasoned appeal they have, even if there is no resoned appeal, the emotional appeal is there.

The common people are a non factor usually. Gvien the ability of governments to curtail the flow of information and to exert pressure through the judiciary as well as through legal and extra legal application of force, you simply cannot make judgements on the common people. By and large they are neither hero nor villian. They are average people, trying to live their lives and cope with the tiny things on a grand scale that are major things in the sum of their lives.

If I landed a job right now in the defense department, I would take it. Federal pay and bennies are outstanding compared to the pitance I get on disability. If that defense department is waging wars I don't agree with my options are very limited. In general, rationalization will take over. If I didn't do it, someone else would, so what's the point in me going back to starving for an ideal that won't make any difference?

The mistake so m any make in looking at the common man is trying to view him as the common man, rather than as Rupert Higgins or Jane Ferrel. They are each differnet, with different drives and motiations, different family problems and life issues. They may both follow the laws and not rock the boat for far different reasons. When you try to view them as part of a whole (the common folk) you loose all that and gain nothing.

 

[CharleyH]

I would make a comparison with imperialist colonial expansion rather than Hitler's Germany. The motivations of the Bush administration in the Middle East are primarily related to securing our oil economy, in my view.

Hero? Villain?

*shrug*

Real Politik

Hm. I am talking hero. American hero? Are ya'll thinking that?

Now lets talk war crimes, maybe torture? Lets talk what you and I think of as a piddly paddly SM scenario, which we all saw on TV - not a big deal to you or I, but a big deal to them as prisoners, now ask HOW do they see it?

The American soldiers with their piddly paddly torture, as we see it, got what? A small jail time?

Are they not guilty of more than the smaller crimes of criminals of Nazi Germany SS women, and Kapos who were hanged?

And my question remains, what are you YOU going to do against a similar thing when it happens. Can you recognize it?

 

[gauchecritic]

I've just looked up the word democracy, it has always been a source of irritation to me that people can claim another country doesn't have democracy, specifically throughout the cold war when the west went to great lengths to inform the free peoples that the USSR didn't have democracy.

The definitions I found are:

1.Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

In a news report yesterday about the Iraqi elections I was shocked to learn that "This is the first time that there has been an election in Iraq where the voting slip contained more than one name."

Do you know why I was shocked? Because I was labouring under the propoganda that Iraq never held elections, when apparently they did. Right, ok, it's a technicality but Iraqi's did have the option of voting.

Are you under the same propogandist delusion that the people of the USSR only had one person to vote for in their elections?

That's a bit beside the point. But it is one of those things that needs to be said.

I can understand exactly where Charley is coming from. The point of the comparison, of Hitler's Germany with Bush's US is that as we are all however faintly aware, left and right, democrats and conservatives, Labour and Tory are all interchangeable. As has been demonstrated many times in the house of commons by elected representatives switching sides.

It's not the credo that politicians are interested in, it is that they can serve their electorate as best they think.

Naziism and neoconism are merely vehicles by which these two particular politicians could best serve their electorate.

If you think I'm standing up for Hitler here then you've missed my point entirely (and Charley's too I think).

Power doesn't actually corrupt it is the retention of power or the gaining of power which leads the powerful down dark alleyways.

So here's where Charley's point comes in. Hitler sensed a mood in the country and jumped onto the bandwagon and took the reins. (I'm not saying he didn't believe in Natzi ideals merely that if he did then it was co-incidental that there was a party already there for him to lead)

How much different would it have been if the groundswell of German opinion at that time had been anti-imperialist (socialist or communist) and that he took that opportunity to join forces with Russia and France?

Given this we can now see that GW (whether he is a god fearing christian neo-con or not) could just as easily have been standing in Clinton or Kerry's shoes. And he was elected to that position by a majority(?) of the vote.

So whatever he does or doesn't do in the middle east, he does with the consent of the populace.

The only thing that history teaches us is that there are lessons to be learned.

2+2 may equal 4 but so does 3+1. Different numbers, same result.