Historical Fictions or Hysterical Factions?

[PayDay]

So I myself have always been a fan of writing out of time about past events. For instance, the easiest example would be Douglas Adam's Life, The Universe, and Everything. In that story, future life is altered by past events. Another example, even easier and not literary, would be the movie Saving Private Ryan, where past events are modified to include the story.

I think such things are often genious, but can fail. (see The Patriot)

I'd like to know what some of the others here think about such things. Examples can only help, literary or film. Please exclude ideas in the vein of Jules Verne, as he wrote about the future, from the past, without the intention I am looking for.

There are a few other older posts (search'd) that do not quite answer the question I am asking, so hopefully we can keep the intelligence of this one near mild. (you know who you are)

(If you know of some other threads, even in other forums on Lit, link them too, please, as it can only help.)

 

[PennLady]

I'm not quite sure what you're going for here. I mean, there are TONS of historical romances and historical (non-romantic) fiction. Do I enjoy reading them? Sometimes. Like anything else, it depends on how well written they are, and if I'm in the mood. But I don't think this is a rare thing.

 

[sr71plt]

Yep. Isn't all historical fiction (because it's fiction) where "past events are modified to include the story"? There's a lot of of it being written; a good percentage of what I write is historical fiction. One of the pen names I use only writes historical fiction. I don't see where there's much of a discussion to have about it in sweeping form, though.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

[The] ... future life is altered by past events...

Are you referring to alternate history?

Harry Turtledove is one of the most successful practitioners of this kind of speculative fiction, but my favorite particular one would be “The Difference Engine” by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling.

Then there are time travel stories, where the person traveling into the past must be careful not to change anything critical which might change the present from which the traveler comes. Robert Heinlein's short stories “By His Bootstraps” and “— All You Zombies —“ are generally considered to be the best time travel stories written. On film, Robert Zemeckis’ “Back From the Future” trilogy is no slouch, either.

[Stories] where past events are modified to include the story.

As PennLady pointed out, there are TONS of historical novels out there written with various degrees of competence.

As for “The Patriot,” the movie was criticized for historical inaccuracies it introduced, such as how some of the battles unfolded, the weaponry used, a number of historical facts that were ignored or altered and the Colonial’s war tactics were changed. Mel seems to make a habit of this, and as a result, his name is mud with many Scots because of his participation in "Braveheart. "

 

[JackLuis]

Like

"Breaking news story, President Paul, today signed a order to shut off all federal funds to Congress. In the announcement he said, "In all good faith, The American People will hence forth only pay Congress in progress payments for things actually completed and no funds will be dispersed to Congress under a continuing resolution."

"It is thought that after the Obama Recessions of the last six years that the people support the President 80% to 12% with the rest undecided or confused.

Congress is trying to figure out how to turn the lights back on in the Rayburn Building now."

Or didn't that sound like Paul?

Or did you mean the scope of the issue to be more personal, an individual buffeted by the storm of the Revolution and force to face their most dreaded adversary in unfair combat.

"Murial thought that she had made a mistake not buying the Luis Vutoni pumps with the four inch heels, with those on her feet she, would feel confident and could have annihilated Michell, and her pitiful Neo-Con evangelism. In her good Republican pumps, Murial could only nod and smile."

 

[PayDay]

This is good. I can work with this.

Are you referring to alternate history?

Indeed I am.
Along with current. Keep reading, I swear I'll make sense. I definately made a 'woops' by not explaining it better.

Harry Turtledove is one of the most successful practitioners of this kind of speculative fiction, but my favorite particular one would be “The Difference Engine” by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling.

Then there are time travel stories, where the person traveling into the past must be careful not to change anything critical which might change the present from which the traveler comes. Robert Heinlein's short stories “By His Bootstraps” and “— All You Zombies —“ are generally considered to be the best time travel stories written. On film, Robert Zemeckis’ “Back From the Future” trilogy is no slouch, either.

I'm looking for stuff like this, especially ^
What people like, and why. Just curious, really. Wait, there's more.

As PennLady pointed out, there are TONS of historical novels out there written with various degrees of competence.

I know, but some people read(or watch) TONS and have picked favorites, and I seriously doubt this thread will get TONS of hits

As for “The Patriot,” the movie was criticized for historical inaccuracies it introduced, such as how some of the battles unfolded, the weaponry used, a number of historical facts that were ignored or altered and the Colonial’s war tactics were changed. Mel seems to make a habit of this, and as a result, his name is mud with many Scots because of his participation in "Braveheart. "

Agreed, The Patriot made me hate a film without even taking the story into account, for the first time ever.

So running with all of that( ^ ) info. Do you think inaccuracy of detail can kill a story, reguardless of content?
Like jetpacks in Saving Private Ryan

What If the author creates the idea where the future isn't the same, then is it ok to change the past?
(I think it is.) My example was Life, The Universe, and Everything by Douglas Adams

What if the author makes it appear to line up with current reality, even though the details are wildly inaccurate, but it does not. Does that just make it worse?
(To me it does, but there are exceptions.)
For instance, The Patriot was my example, because it's blatent.

An exception would be Catch-22 by Joseph Heller or The Book of Lies by Brad Meltzer
Both of these books wildly change the past to line up with the 'current future' though the authors make it work when it does not.

Saving Private Ryan would in turn be 'accurate historical fiction': Accurate detail, fictional events, fits with the future. This is what I think the minority of HF is. I'd like to leave examples like this out, if possible, unless that's what you like.

Hope all of that makes it easier to respond.

sr71plt: Bold name for you. I'm just trying to build a reader opinion base on Historical Fiction, by siting material(s). Trying to learn a little thing or two out of curiosity. I think you can be constructive, I know it's in there somewhere.

 

[sr71plt]

sr71plt: Bold name for you. I'm just trying to build a reader opinion base on Historical Fiction, by siting material(s). Trying to learn a little thing or two out of curiosity. I think you can be constructive, I know it's in there somewhere.

I'm busy writing. I don't feel the need to teach children--or anyone else for that matter--to reinvent the wheel.

 

[PayDay]

I'm busy writing. I don't feel the need to teach children--or anyone else for that matter--to reinvent the wheel.

What's it like living alone and having no friends? I bet your pets run away. Quit spamming my posts. You couldn't teach yourself how to shit in a toilet. I don't like you anymore, as I feel you are a waste of a functional human body.

 

[sr71plt]

What's it like living alone and having no friends? I bet your pets run away. Quit spamming my posts. You couldn't teach yourself how to shit in a toilet. I don't like you anymore, as I feel you are a waste of a functional human body.

God, you're beginning to sound like Freddie.

 

[bumblegrum]

I have this almost overwhelming desire to stir the pot. If you really want to go down that path, PayDay, try that monumental series of books starting with Genesis and ending with Revelations. Full of historical inaccuracies, full of alternative futures - well, Revelations sure is.

"Do you think inaccuracy of detail can kill a story, reguardless of content?" you ask. Well now, has inaccuracy of detail killed that (those) story(ies)?

I'm not going to stir this pot any more, but I'm sure someone else may have a view; sr71plt, perhaps?

 

[PayDay]

I have this almost overwhelming desire to stir the pot. If you really want to go down that path, PayDay, try that monumental series of books starting with Genesis and ending with Revelations. Full of historical inaccuracies, full of alternative futures - well, Revelations sure is.

"Do you think inaccuracy of detail can kill a story, reguardless of content?" you ask. Well now, has inaccuracy of detail killed that (those) story(ies)?

Yes, I think it did, along with the millenia of interpretation, though I do like the ending.
Excellent example, but I would like to know what you think about it, since you brought it up.

I know my opinions on the works I've read and the films I've seen, I just want to know what other people like and think. I'm not asking for the formula to cold fusion here. Not at all.

Maybe I should start a thread about guitars instead... (ha, two at once, good times)

 

[CWatson]

One example of an alternate history is Watchmen. It's chillingly realistic, especially considering the blatantly fantastical premise it works with. The movie was pretty good, but (as always) the book is better.

 

[PayDay]

Nice choice.

One example of an alternate history is Watchmen. It's chillingly realistic, especially considering the blatantly fantastical premise it works with. The movie was pretty good, but (as always) the book is better.

Agreed, the movie version of that was pretty good, but isn't that almost always the case with properties like that? The original was loaded with narration and thought bubbles, along with being insanely well written, so any movie version would be sub-par reguardless compared to that source material. Seeing those characters in motion, though, was so stunning that it won me over the missing details and changes. Good suggestion, I had not thought of including comics. I don't know why I didn't think of it, glad you posted.

You put up a massively great idea with that, too. In a fantasy (surreal) based historical fiction, involving fantasy characters of the super hero (heroine) persuasion, you automatically assume anything is possible if it is written well enough (or in the case of some comics, no matter how it is written).

Anyone have an example of something like that without a super powered character or characters? Like an alternate historical fiction that aligns with a potential current timeline? Or something already mention that fits in that group, like Back to the Future or Hitchhiker's... ?

 

[JackLuis]

Jose Phillip Farmer's "River Series" blends the past the future and creates it's own history of the future.

Just what are you looking for, in historical, accuracy or turning points?

If Washington hadn't crossed the Delaware and attacked the British in their winter camp...

If Adolf Hitler had been killed in WW1?

If Winston Churchill had been eaten by a lion in the Transvaal in the Boor War?

If George W Bush had driven his car into a tree at high speeds, while sniffing coke in 1968?

 

[PayDay]

Nice stuff. Very nice.

Jose Phillip Farmer's "River Series" blends the past the future and creates it's own history of the future.

Just what are you looking for, in historical, accuracy or turning points?

I'm looking for anything anyone wants to post. Diversity of taste more than other stuff. Nice joke at the end, by the way. I could throw in:

"What if Al Gore actually treated soldiers, Veterans, and the environment with respect throughout his politcal career?"

(like that? politics = ftl)

So, for comic fans (or movie fans): I just finished reading (looking at) Predator: Hell & Hot Water. Picked up the series for a few bucks at a hobby shop. Not the best issues I've ever seen in the character veins, but not too shabby either. The idea of a creature that has been using our planet for ages, and potentially altering history, made me think, for a minute, in the context of this thread.

So space creatures that kill and hunt have been traveling to earth for centuries to kill and hunt humans, along with mythical and actual creatures (Dinosaurs, Kraken, etc). They did it in the past, they will do it in the future. The stories generally wrap up with everything back to 'normal' for everyone on Earth short of the human characters involved. Where does it fit?

Historical fiction, or historical mythology ? Is there even another case of something that could be Historical Mythology?

I was thinking, maybe Homer's The Illiad, except that it was written in the past. Any thoughts on these questions I am continually asking would be great, and entertaining, methinks (had to use it). Even if you disagree, it couldn't hurt the potentially budding discussion.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You mentioned "Saving Private Ryan" with jetpacks.

That kind of huge and obvious-- and also rather popular-- anachronism might not ruin a film the way more subtle wrong details would. Like, if you saw a girl in a pink Hello Kitty shirt, somewhere in a crowd scene. I completely lost interest in Warner Herzog's "Nosferatu" because in one scene, Renfield climbs up a daunting mountain path-- that has a municiple pipe-and-chain safety railing, and then a few scenes later this lady opens an old kitchen door-- on which sits a bright, modern Shlage lock. It was so damn irritating, it got in the way of the storytelling.

Now what's interesting is that it's perfectly possible that both these thing did exist in the mid-1800's, but I perceive them as anachronisms. Sometimes we have to cater to wrong impressions, for the sake of our audience-- unless we want to explain the wrongness within the context of the story.

And just to bring it all back around, I do, sometimes, throw in a spot of reeducation into my stories, especially about misunderstood practices like fisting and BDSM dynamics...

 

[PayDay]

Hmmmm

You mentioned "Saving Private Ryan" with jetpacks.

That kind of huge and obvious-- and also rather popular-- anachronism might not ruin a film the way more subtle wrong details would. Like, if you saw a girl in a pink Hello Kitty shirt, somewhere in a crowd scene. I completely lost interest in Warner Herzog's "Nosferatu" because in one scene, Renfield climbs up a daunting mountain path-- that has a municiple pipe-and-chain safety railing, and then a few scenes later this lady opens an old kitchen door-- on which sits a bright, modern Shlage lock. It was so damn irritating, it got in the way of the storytelling.

Now what's interesting is that it's perfectly possible that both these thing did exist in the mid-1800's, but I perceive them as anachronisms. Sometimes we have to cater to wrong impressions, for the sake of our audience-- unless we want to explain the wrongness within the context of the story.

And just to bring it all back around, I do, sometimes, throw in a spot of reeducation into my stories, especially about misunderstood practices like fisting and BDSM dynamics...

Nice reference, I would like to see that now, but I'm going to watch it like a "Where's Waldo" comedy instead of the context it was meant for. I agree with the little stuff mattering more, and I also think the jetpacks might have been cool. It worked for The Rocketeer, right? (sorta?) I specifically used that SPR reference because it was so popular.

Here's the thing though, why cater to the audience if it's historically accurate?

I understand if it's neccessary for the sake of the plot, but personally I would rather learn them a little something and change some perception. Otherwise, I agree, smart post.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Here's the thing though, why cater to the audience if it's historically accurate?

Well, that would depend on what your goals are.

I DID say that you can-- sometimes, with skill and finesse-- insert the new knowledge about what's accurate into the narrative.


If Schlage locks are historically accurate but the majority of your audience react as if they are not -- you will lose points with your audience. They might be wrong, you might be right but you lose your fanbase, while they have other writers to turn to.

That particular visual totally borked my willing suspension of disbelief, in that particular case. And Herzog took no stepsto restore my trust, yanno what I'm saying.

 

[PayDay]

ok, gotcha

Well, that would depend on what your goals are.

If Schlage locks are historically accurate but the majority of your audience react as if they are not -- you will lose points with your audience. They might be wrong, you might be right but you lose your fanbase, while they have other writers to turn to. ...
That particular visual totally borked my willing suspension of disbelief, in that particular case. And Herzog took no stepsto restore my trust, yanno what I'm saying.

Solid logic. I am understanding your diction, and reading what you are typing now, and concur.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

In Slaughterhouse Five, Kurt Vonnegut has aliens that could see in 4 dimensions. They could look at a spot and focus in on everything that happened there in the past and, as I recall, everything that would happen there in the future, given present conditions.

I'm not big on speculative fiction or time travel myself. The here and now is all I can handle.

 

[lloyd_5]

I'm busy writing. I don't feel the need to teach children--or anyone else for that matter--to reinvent the wheel.

PayDay summed you up. When megastars like Dr. M and Stella O made sensible remarks, you just farted.

With your view, you had no reason to comment but your ego won't let you pass by on the other side.

 

[sr71plt]

PayDay summed you up. When megastars like Dr. M and Stella O made sensible remarks, you just farted.

With your view, you had no reason to comment but your ego won't let you pass by on the other side.

That's certainly a ringing endorsement for support for free speech, isn't it?

What is it in your ego that obsesses you to continually attack me on the forums--and not do much of anything else? Pot/kettle.

 

[PayDay]

More please.

In Slaughterhouse Five, Kurt Vonnegut

Nice reference.

 

[PayDay]

Yummy viewing.

So this morning, I finally decided to watch a film I had been meaning to for quite some time.

It's called Ravenous. The film came out a while back, it has cannibalism, Indian lore, and civil war era soldiers.

Historically accurate (short of a 'loco weed' addict), well acted, detail oriented, and quite well done. I'm suggesting it for fan's of the genre, as it fits into the stuff I like. It also beats most of the TV drivel out there, as it was better than I thought it would be.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

Although any time travel story is a puzzle, with hidden traps for the unwary writer, the easier sort to write are the stories where the travel destination is the present. These are the stories where someone travels back to the present from the future, and where someone from the past comes forward to the present. In both these cases, the traveler can make any change to our present, and we will not be aware.

The Terminator Trilogy and 12 Monkeys are examples of the first, and my favorite time travel story, Time After Time, Les Visiteurs and Kate and Leopold are examples of the latter. (Although, the scriptwriters on Kate and Leopold totally blew the logic of the time travel in their film.)

The Back to The Future Trilogy is the more difficult kind of time travel story to write, where someone from the present goes back into the past and returns without disrupting the present. To the best of my knowledge, they managed to complete the trilogy without any glaring defects.

There are military time travel stories like The Philadelphia Experiment and The Final Countdown. The first is about a WWII experiment which strands two sailors in 1984, while the second sends the present day US aircraft carrier Nimitz back to December 7, 1941.

On a more personal level, Peggy Sue Got Married tells of a woman sent back in time who is determined to change her present, and Hot Tub Time Machine where buddies who stumble back in time try to not change their future, and fail.

Finally, there are the time travel stories which don’t really travel, but simply play with time. Pleasantville where a brother and sister are zapped into the fictional reality of a 1950's TV show, and Groundhog Day where an obnoxious weatherman gets stuck in time until he learns the lesson his fate is teaching him.