HisArpy's Forlorn Hope

[jomar]

So over the past couple of weeks Harpy and I have been having a back and forth over whether transgenderism is a mental illness or not. I contend that, like homosexuality so many years ago, Gender Identity Disorder (i.e., transgenderism) is not a mental disorder since it has been removed from the DSM-5. What replaced it is Gender Dysphoria Disorder, which is distress surrounding the gender identity (brain) not matching the genitalia (body).

Harpy contends that transgenderism is a delusion and therefore is a mental illness. I countered that if it was a delusion then the DSM-5 would have a sub-type in the Delusional Disorder category like it has others (e.g., paranoid, grandiose, jealous, etc). He then said no, it's a delusion under Schizophrenia. I countered that if a person presenting with Schizophrinia said they were transgendered, then mental helath professionals would need to determine if the claim was a pre-existing transgender issue (not a mental disorder) or if it was a delusion within the symptom cluster of schizophrenia.

So, please feel free to join our ongoing discussion at Harpy's invitation:

So, start another thread on it and let's see you support the proposition that the DSM only allows ONE diagnosis category at a time.

I never came close to claiming that. That's your assertion and ascription. A person can have depression, anxiety, ADD and a personality disorder and have it all coded on whatever medical form is used.

I'm of the opinion that if your symptoms can be supported by more than 1 cause, only 1 of which is a mental health issue, then you should have treatment for those symptoms...

Ok. Feel free to elaborate and clarify.

...instead of being told to go away out of political expediency.

Are you saying that the worlds mental health organizations have all removed transgenderism as a mental disorder due to politics?

Obviously you disagree.

Whether you and I agree or disagree that transgenderism is or is not a mental disorder is irrelevant. The worlds mental health experts have concluded that transgenderism is not a mental illness. I've already presented multiple links on this.

Which leads me to wonder why you prefer to deny health care to certain individuals while also proclaiming that everyone should have health care.

I'm not. Though I guess in your confused mind I am.

Perhaps it's because you feel transgenders aren't deserving of health care by virtue of their status as trans? Or is it because they're "women" in an artificial sort of distinction?

Your words, not mine. Everybody should get health care. (Note the beginning stages of Harpy Creep.)

So which is it, do you hate tranny's or just women in general?

^^^ This is a further example of Harpy Creep, where he loses the central issue of a discussion and wanders off point, typically followed up by ascription and lame insults.

 

[jomar]

Hormone therapy and gender-reassignment surgery are the accepted treatments for severe gender dysphoria.

Lol, according to Jomar, it's not a mental illness. If it's not a mental illness then treatment is unnecessary.

Or haven't you been following along with the discussion?

Gender dysphoria is a mental condition. Transgenderism is not in the mental illness context you mean.

 

[Rightguide]

Harpy is right, you're a simple victim of an ongoing "Ministry of Truth" propaganda campaign to convince us that black is white and night is day.

 

[butters]

there will always be the exceptions of a mentally unwell person believing, on and off, they are trans but the mass of trans people are quite sane and know they were in the wrong body from an early age. In the UK, people have to go through a barrage of evaluation before being considered for reassignment, including mental health assessments

as to trans people suffering from depression, suicidal thoughts and more, given the lack of support/funding and knowledge of their situation it's hardly surprising. They live for years in bodies that don't match up with who they are as a person, enduring all the struggles pertaining to that such as school bullying, isolation, pretending to be someone they're not in order not to draw attention to themselves etc..., then have to endure the drawn out process of eval, the pain and stigma of medical procedures, and the ignorance that drives anti-trans sentiment once they HAVE physically transitioned. Unless you know the struggles of individuals who have spent years, tears and bullying just to get out the other side with their personality and body in synch, you speak from a position of the uninformed.

if i remember what i read rightly, the reason it was first classified as 'mental illness' was more to do with clinics being able to receive funding to study it and find ways of helping people than any actual scientific classification.

read harpingon's posts? nah, gimme a break!

 

[jomar]

Harpy is right, you're a simple victim of an ongoing "Ministry of Truth" propaganda campaign to convince us that black is white and night is day.

You're ignoring the part where it doesn't matter what I believe.

I wonder whose victim you are? Oh, never mind.

 

[Lazaran]

So over the past couple of weeks Harpy and I have been having a back and forth over whether transgenderism is a mental illness or not. I contend that, like homosexuality so many years ago, Gender Identity Disorder (i.e., transgenderism) is not a mental disorder since it has been removed from the DSM-5. What replaced it is Gender Dysphoria Disorder, which is distress surrounding the gender identity (brain) not matching the genitalia (body).

Harpy contends that transgenderism is a delusion and therefore is a mental illness. I countered that if it was a delusion then the DSM-5 would have a sub-type in the Delusional Disorder category like it has others (e.g., paranoid, grandiose, jealous, etc). He then said no, it's a delusion under Schizophrenia. I countered that if a person presenting with Schizophrinia said they were transgendered, then mental helath professionals would need to determine if the claim was a pre-existing transgender issue (not a mental disorder) or if it was a delusion within the symptom cluster of schizophrenia.

So, please feel free to join our ongoing discussion at Harpy's invitation:


I never came close to claiming that. That's your assertion and ascription. A person can have depression, anxiety, ADD and a personality disorder and have it all coded on whatever medical form is used.


Ok. Feel free to elaborate and clarify.


Are you saying that the worlds mental health organizations have all removed transgenderism as a mental disorder due to politics?


Whether you and I agree or disagree that transgenderism is or is not a mental disorder is irrelevant. The worlds mental health experts have concluded that transgenderism is not a mental illness. I've already presented multiple links on this.


I'm not. Though I guess in your confused mind I am.


Your words, not mine. Everybody should get health care. (Note the beginning stages of Harpy Creep.)


^^^ This is a further example of Harpy Creep, where he loses the central issue of a discussion and wanders off point, typically followed up by ascription and lame insults.

•
I can’t say there’s really much more to add to your absolute destruction of Harpy on every point and at every turn. (Harpy creep).

“Harpy creep”. is a perfect invention for the predictable, intellectually lazy and dishonest way in which Harpy attempts to control the debate and shift the focus away from the original point to “win” something?

This thread was really over after the first post.

Well played.

 

[Philthy_Phil]

Rapey is an idiot.

End of story.

 

[DeluxAuto]

Harpy is right, you're a simple victim of an ongoing "Ministry of Truth" propaganda campaign to convince us that black is white and night is day.

Because no one held the opinion that transgenderism isn't a mental illness until the woke media decided it wasn't.

You truly are one indoctrinated moron.

 

[HisArpy]

there will always be the exceptions of a mentally unwell person believing, on and off, they are trans but the mass of trans people are quite sane and know they were in the wrong body from an early age. In the UK, people have to go through a barrage of evaluation before being considered for reassignment, including mental health assessments

as to trans people suffering from depression, suicidal thoughts and more, given the lack of support/funding and knowledge of their situation it's hardly surprising. They live for years in bodies that don't match up with who they are as a person, enduring all the struggles pertaining to that such as school bullying, isolation, pretending to be someone they're not in order not to draw attention to themselves etc..., then have to endure the drawn out process of eval, the pain and stigma of medical procedures, and the ignorance that drives anti-trans sentiment once they HAVE physically transitioned. Unless you know the struggles of individuals who have spent years, tears and bullying just to get out the other side with their personality and body in synch, you speak from a position of the uninformed.

if i remember what i read rightly, the reason it was first classified as 'mental illness' was more to do with clinics being able to receive funding to study it and find ways of helping people than any actual scientific classification.

read harpingon's posts? nah, gimme a break!

We start with the latter because it explains the former.

You don't read my posts but you feel qualified to comment on them? Certainly that's about the easiest way to promote your own ignorance and platitudes but it does nothing for you in the intelligence department. Ignorance isn't becoming on anyone and YOU take the cake for ignorance.

Now, off to the former we go...

Transgenders tend to have higher suicide rates. This is indicative of an unstable mental state. Which totally defeats your proposition that they're "quite sane." From there you admit that they believe in something that the physical reality doesn't show. Which is the definition of a delusional disorder.

And that is, as you very well know, a mental illness.

 

[HisArpy]

You're ignoring the part where it doesn't matter what I believe.

I wonder whose victim you are? Oh, never mind.

What you believe matters a whole lot if it doesn't match up with reality because it indicates a need for mental health counseling.

 

[HisArpy]

Harpy is right, you're a simple victim of an ongoing "Ministry of Truth" propaganda campaign to convince us that black is white and night is day.

He's trying to confuse the issue by swapping various terms around and claiming that's what I'm trying to say even when it's obvious that I'm saying something completely different.

Basically he's lying his ass off and blaming me for him having to do it.

 

[Lazaran]

•
And right on cue, Harpy goes full spaztard.

Harpy

 

[John_von_Neumann]

Transgenders tend to have higher suicide rates. This is indicative of an unstable mental state. Which totally defeats your proposition that they're "quite sane." From there you admit that they believe in something that the physical reality doesn't show. Which is the definition of a delusional disorder.

And that is, as you very well know, a mental illness.

As an ambulance chaser, Derpy never learned that causation doesn't necessarily follow from correlation.

 

[jaF0]

So over the past couple of weeks Harpy and I have been having a back and forth

That says more about you than you think it does.

 

[HisArpy]

That says more about you than you think it does.

Watch it Jomar, the JaFOOL is gunning for you now.

 

[jomar]

What you believe matters a whole lot if it doesn't match up with reality because it indicates a need for mental health counseling.

You misunderstand. It doesn't matter if I think transgenderism is a mental illness or not. The experts have determined it's not, your oddly phrased sentence notwithstanding.

He's trying to confuse the issue by swapping various terms around and claiming that's what I'm trying to say even when it's obvious that I'm saying something completely different.

I'm not trying to confuse anyone. I'm using well defined terms. You are the one trying to play a shell game.

Basically he's lying his ass off and blaming me for him having to do it.

Show me where I've lied. I have not, but you need to believe I have.

That says more about you than you think it does.

Yeah, so sue me, I'm bored.

 

[HisArpy]

You misunderstand. It doesn't matter if I think transgenderism is a mental illness or not. The experts have determined it's not, your oddly phrased sentence notwithstanding.

You're STUCK on a phrase and you're ascribing it to me and then telling me I'm wrong for saying it. The truth is that I'm not talking about trans anything, I'm talking delusional disorders. Something you refuse to even mention or discuss in this conversation.

I'm not trying to confuse anyone. I'm using well defined terms. You are the one trying to play a shell game.

You're engaging in ascription and then arguing with yourself while blaming me for not understanding. Please continue, I'm sure that no matter which one of your forked tongues wins, you'll claim victory.

Show me where I've lied. I have not, but you need to believe I have.

You lie. Either directly through your ascription or by omission. Either way, you lie. That you refuse to admit it only acerbates the lie.

Yeah, so sue me, I'm bored.

[cheap shot omitted]

 

[Rotadom]

Rapey is an idiot.

/thread

 

[John_von_Neumann]

The truth is that I'm not talking about trans anything...

It must be exhausting being you.

 

[AlexBailey]

I don’t know any trans people who could truly be considered delusional.

In order to be delusional they would have to believe they are something they are not, but they all know they are transgender which by logic shows that they know they are not genetically their chosen gender.

There may be some people out there who look down at themselves and each time are horrified, “Oh fuck! When did I grow a penis?”

Meanwhile Harpy will just go on tugging his own mutilated little foreskin-less pee-pee and call himself a real man.

 

[Lazaran]

It must be exhausting being you.

•
When Harpy is finished playing solo musical chairs with the issue being debated, maybe someone can pin the human jello down on “something?”.

Harpy

 

[jomar]

You're STUCK on a phrase and you're ascribing it to me and then telling me I'm wrong for saying it. The truth is that I'm not talking about trans anything, I'm talking delusional disorders. Something you refuse to even mention or discuss in this conversation.

Way to try and moooove them goalposts. So you’re now claiming you never said transgendered people are experiencing a delusional disorder (post #9, anyone) and may even be schizophrenic?

And I discussed delusions in other threads we’ve debated this topic, if you can call it that. I even addressed delusions in my OP of this very thread! You gotta keep up with the class, Harpy!

You're engaging in ascription and then arguing with yourself while blaming me for not understanding. Please continue, I'm sure that no matter which one of your forked tongues wins, you'll claim victory.

LOL, nice try. See above

You lie. Either directly through your ascription or by omission. Either way, you lie. That you refuse to admit it only acerbates the lie.

So show me where I lied. Point it out. Please, I beg you to. Except you can’t because I haven’t. All you have is empty accusations you can’t back up.

 

[stickygirl]

Types of Delusions in Delusional Disorders

• Erotomanic: The person believes someone is in love with them and might try to contact that person. ...
• Grandiose: This person has an over-inflated sense of worth, power, knowledge, or identity. ...
• Jealous: A person with this type believes their spouse or sexual partner is unfaithful.

Interesting huh? Looks like half the folks at Lit are delusional

 

[Lazaran]

Way to try and moooove them goalposts. So you’re now claiming you never said transgendered people are experiencing a delusional disorder (post #9, anyone) and may even be schizophrenic?

And I discussed delusions in other threads we’ve debated this topic, if you can call it that. I even addressed delusions in my OP of this very thread! You gotta keep up with the class, Harpy!


LOL, nice try. See above


So show me where I lied. Point it out. Please, I beg you to. Except you can’t because I haven’t. All you have is empty accusations you can’t back up.

•
Harpy is DEFINITELY qualified to be a Dolt 45 lawyer with that penchant for lying and prevaricating.

I say Harpy should go for it.

 

[coati]

Engaging with Harpy and RightGuard for so long on a topic that neither of them are qualified to discuss will lead to mental illness.

Jomar, with the obsessive symptoms you are exhibiting, I recommend turning off your electronic device and doing some volunteer work in person with trans activists. That would have a much higher chance of bringing about positive change in society than arguing with intractable bigots on the "interweb" (see posts 7 and 14).

Plus, as you interact with actual transgender people in real life, you may learn a few things about how to best promote their human rights and respect their dignity.