Hey, ppman!

[REDWAVE]

How's it going over there? Which do you prefer-- Newcastle or Guinness?

I would very much appreciate it if you would (at your convenience, of course) check out the following and respond to it:

http://www.icl-fi.org/ENGLISH/imm784.htm

The gist of it is summed up in the first paragraph, which follows:

"One day after a powerful general strike paralysed Spain on 20 June, Europe’s capitalist rulers met in Seville to ratchet up the war against immigrants as the spearhead of an attack against the proletariat as a whole. The competition between the dominant nations of the European Union (EU) for economic advantage in the midst of a recession meant the summit fell short of its stated goal of establishing supranational police-state measures, such as joint border patrols on land and sea, but all that and more is promised by the guardians of Fortress Europe. In the meantime, each capitalist ruling class is trying to outdo the next in raising the bar to immigration and enhancing police-state measures against immigrants with the aim of regimenting the entire population, driving down wages and slashing social gains which were wrested through decades of class struggle."

 

[p_p_man]

How's it going over there? Which do you prefer-- Newcastle or Guinness?

I would very much appreciate it if you would (at your convenience, of course) check out the following and respond to it:

http://www.icl-fi.org/ENGLISH/imm784.htm

Bacardi Coke (or as we Cuban lovers call it - Cuba Libre) actually old chap!

I'll reply later to the link. As usual I need time to look at these things and at the moment I'm giving my apartment a complete makeover. New equipment, painting, tiling, socket installing, plumbing connected to washing machine and so on...

ppman

 

[REDWAVE]

Bacardi?

Bacardi-- that's from Puerto Rico, isn't it? When it comes to rum, I prefer Myer's Dark any day.

Of course, my favorite is Mount Gay rum, from the isle of Barbados . . .

 

[REDWAVE]

Shhh! Ppman is sleeping

Well, it's about 4 a.m. in London, so I imagine ppman is asleep. Has the Labor Party dumped Blair yet, pp?

I can't believe you like Bacardi. Up until now, I liked you-- but this I have a serious problem with!

 

[HeavyStick]

Re: Re: Hey, ppman!

Bacardi Coke (or as we Cuban lovers call it - Cuba Libre) actually old chap!

I'll reply later to the link. As usual I need time to look at these things and at the moment I'm giving my apartment a complete makeover. New equipment, painting, tiling, socket installing, plumbing connected to washing machine and so on...

ppman

HIC...

"Nobody knows the colonies we've lost... HIC... nobody knows our sorrow"

HIC...
*THUMP*

 

[REDWAVE]

Ode to ppman

Oh, ppman, you are such a hypocrite
You see the faults of the US with an eagle eye
But when it comes to the faults of the EU
All of a sudden your eyes goes blind
The same thing goes for British imperialism
How can there be a "proper" empire?
All empires are improper, it seems to me

Do you have two different pairs of eyes to see things with?

One for America, and a different one for Europe?



Yeah, OK, it's definitely not the best poem I ever wrote, lol-- in fact it sucks. But it gets the point across.

 

[HeavyStick]

http://www.drunklegends.com/

anyone wanna guess whose homepage that is

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Ode to ppman

Yeah, OK, it's definitely not the best poem I ever wrote, lol-- in fact it sucks.

True, so very true...

There's nothing personal when I bash Bush and Bush's America...

It's only business.

As for Europe:

My eyes are not dim I can see
There's lotsa rats for you and me
To bash as hard, as hard as we can
But only a few here know the score
So the EU'll wait until there's more.

Until others on here learn about
The European ever increasing klout
Then any discussion on the NHRE
Will be met with stupidity by the likes of PC

But rest assured Europe's time will arrive
When, as it matures to true corruption
We'll have a field day, you and me,
Bashing it into Kingdom Come...

At least mine scans (after a fashion)!



ppman

 

[miles]

hic...

 

[p_p_man]

hic...

...ory, dickory dock,
miles has lost his cock.
It was only small
Really nothing at all.
But still...it was a cock he thought of a lot!

ppman

 

[HeavyStick]

hic...

"85 pints of ale on the wall, 85 pints of ale..."

hic...

 

[teddybear4play]

...ory, dickory dock,
miles has lost his cock.
It was only small
Really nothing at all.
But still...it was a cock he thought of a lot!

Touché. Good comeback.

TB4p

 

[REDWAVE]

Bump

So what do you think, ppman? Is the attack on immigrants an attack on the working class as a whole, as the Sparts maintain? Or are you going to argue that mass deportations of immigrants would help the workers who remain, as there would be less competition for scarce jobs?

Hmmm?

 

[Coolville]

Fuck the working class is the message they're sending, in my opinion.

Anti-immgration policies have only one purpose. To keep the fear-monger parties in power.

Denmark needs 100,000 immigrants over the next ten years to keep up with our falling birthrate. But the government is in bed with the ultra right-wing party in the parliament and the latter is elected by farmers and hicks in the country who have never seen an immigrant and only read about the bad ones in the rightwing papers.

so the working class suffers at the lack of workers because of these anti-immigrant policies.

Still, these rightwing parties are democratically elected, so we have to figure out how to tackle them. At least we don't have rampant, armed white supremicist armies in the back woods like they have in the states.

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

Fuck the working class is the message they're sending, in my opinion.

Anti-immgration policies have only one purpose. To keep the fear-monger parties in power.

Denmark needs 100,000 immigrants over the next ten years to keep up with our falling birthrate. But the government is in bed with the ultra right-wing party in the parliament and the latter is elected by farmers and hicks in the country who have never seen an immigrant and only read about the bad ones in the rightwing papers.

so the working class suffers at the lack of workers because of these anti-immigrant policies.

Still, these rightwing parties are democratically elected, so we have to figure out how to tackle them. At least we don't have rampant, armed white supremicist armies in the back woods like they have in the states.

I'm not an expert, but I'd have guessed that the working class would rejoice at anti-immigrant policies because they lower the "competition" and that drives up wages. Is this not true?

We need immigrants to work hard to pay for our social security system. Is it the same case there? Our birth rates are too low, and our government policies resemble a ponzi scheme (a scam). Maybe we need a new policy called "Fuck America" where we encourage more fucking. I know that redwave would certainly embrace that message.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Bump

So what do you think, ppman? Is the attack on immigrants an attack on the working class as a whole, as the Sparts maintain? Or are you going to argue that mass deportations of immigrants would help the workers who remain, as there would be less competition for scarce jobs?

Hmmm?

"One day after a powerful general strike paralysed Spain on 20 June, Europe’s capitalist rulers met in Seville to ratchet up the war against immigrants as the spearhead of an attack against the proletariat as a whole." Quote from REDWAVE's link.

"European leaders are set to hammer out common rules on asylum and immigration at their two-day Summit in Seville, which starts on Friday. The issue was put high on the agenda at the request of Britain's Prime Minister Tony Blair, who has called for a joint European response to growing public discontent with existing rules and to the rise of the far right in Europe. Promises to crack down on illegal immigrants and enforce stricter asylum policies have become vote-winners for rightwing parties in recent elections around Europe." Quote from My Source.

As the purpose of the Seville Summit was to create common rules for dealing with immigration (especially illegal immigration) it could hardly be claimed that it was an attack on the 'working class'.

By working class I take it that your link is using the term in the accepted sense, that is blue collar workers, sons of the soil and the honest labourer. As immigrants who are waiting for their cases to be heard are from all walks of life and all professions I can only see a marginal correlation between the two.

There is no doubt that Europe badly needs immigrants to take their place in our society. We need the manpower and their skills. What we don't need is uncontrolled immigration.

"Statistics show that the number of asylum seekers halved in several EU member states in 2001. One of these countries is Belgium, which has recently tightened its rules on asylum. Applicants no longer receive social security benefits and are only entitled to meals and a bed at a reception centre. The Belgian Commissioner in charge of refugee affairs, Pascal Smet, is pleased that this tough approach has borne fruit. Yet he acknowledges that, put off by Belgiums's restrictive rules, many refugees have now sought asylum elsewhere. This, he says, proves there's a need for common European rules on asylum". Quote from My Source

The Seville Summit was called because of an increasing demand by EU citizens for the member states to do something about the increased and uncontrolled numbers entering our borders. I presume that a large number of those seeking some sort of pan-European set of rules include the 'working class'

"the summit fell short of its stated goal of establishing supranational police-state measures, such as joint border patrols on land and sea, but all that and more is promised by the guardians of Fortress Europe." Quote from REDWAVE's link

"Prime Minister Blair even suggested sending naval vessels to the Mediterranean to stop ships carrying refugees trying to enter the EU illegally. The Belgian commissioner admits that the European Union's outer borders are far from watertight. But sealing them is no solution, he says, adding that the focus should be on adopting visa regulations that apply in every EU country." Quote from My Source

So, no I don't think an attack on immigrants is an attack on the working class as a whole. All Seville tried to do was to start standardising visa regulations. Individual member states still have their own say in how they each deal with immigrants. Belgium as shown above is one way which others are following.

In the UK we have allowed immigration to get out of control where even the government a few months ago admitted they did not know how many there were or where they were. Under David Blunkett our Home Secretary that is now being rectified.

The 'working class' are not objecting...

My Source:

Radio Netherlands

ppman

 

[REDWAVE]

That wily ppman!

Are you sure you're not a politician, ppman? You're slippery as an eel, and twice as elusive! Only Roses was stupid enough to bite on the trap I tried to set for you.


The main thing I get out of your comments is that while you acknowledge Europe needs immigrants, you don't want "uncontrolled" immigration. Could you be specific about what kind of "controls" you want on immigration? Shackles around immigrants' necks, say?

Immigrants may be "from all walks of life," as you say, but let's face it. The overwhelming majority of the immigrants in Europe, and the ones who are being targeted by the anti-immigrant drive, are the ones who do menial, low-paying jobs.

As a Marxist, I am an internationalist, and consider myself a citizen of the world. My race is the human race. I strongly agree with classical Marxism that the working man has no country. The country we live in is just the country in which we are being exploited and oppressed. It's their country, not ours. We are only welcome to fight and die for it. When the working class vet comes home, he's confronted with "Keep Out" and "Your Kind Is Not Welcome" signs everywhere. But I digress.

Scapegoating immigrants allows workers of different nationalities and ethnicities to be pitted against each other. It is a body blow to working class solidarity. It also becomes the opening wedge for repressive measures and regimentation of the working class as a whole (i.e., we have to check your papers to make sure you're not here "illegally," that sort of thing.)

I suggest that the reason some of the European working class goes along with this anti-immigrant kick is they are frustrated by the assault on wages and living conditions, and the social welfare state in general, which has been going on in Europe for quite some time now, and their anger has been diverted by ruling class propagandists against immigrants, in order to deflect it from the true culprits, the capitalist ruling class.

I still can't get over how so many of the yahoos here think you're a leftist! You're a middle of the roader, especially in terms of European politics. But don't worry, ppman, your secret is safe with me.


Cool, thanks for the update on Danish politics. Last time I checked, the Social Democrats headed the government there, with the Liberals as the main opposition party. Are the SD's actually in coalition with right-wing parties? That's another example of how social democratic parties throughout Europe have betrayed the working class, and are doing the capitalists' dirty work for them by taking apart the welfare state. Jospin in France (now gone from power), Schroder in Germany, and Blair in the UK (Bush's lapdog)-- they're all Judases and traitors to the working class.

If Lenin were alive today, he would denounce them all furiously.

 

[sch00lteacher]

That last message would be worth a 'C' if you were in my sociology class. Just because you write something does not mean it is true. Where is your proof? Whose work are you plagiarizing Red?

Let me make that a C-

I've taught high school seniors that can do a hell of a lot better than this.

 

[REDWAVE]

Guess what grade I give you?

Well, that just shows you don't recognize brilliance when you see it, brainwasher of youth. As for my proof, it's in numerous news articles on a wide variety of sources, including www.wsws.org.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: That wily ppman!

Originally posted by REDWAVE

The main thing I get out of your comments is that while you acknowledge Europe needs immigrants, you don't want "uncontrolled" immigration. Could you be specific about what kind of "controls" you want on immigration? Shackles around immigrants' necks, say?

Spoken like a true, fully paid up member of the downtrodden working class! Not all controls in life have to be so harsh. As I said the Seville summit has started a process of standardising visa regulations as one method of control.

As Pascal Smet remarked "We should work together on a common European visa identification system, we need a common assessment of countries of origin. It makes no sense that one European country says that Roma people in Kosovo face problems while another country says they don't. The objective situation is the same, so the assessment should be the same in every European country, as should the definition of refugees. Those are the type of measures that Europe should take,"

Immigrants may be "from all walks of life," as you say, but let's face it. The overwhelming majority of the immigrants in Europe, and the ones who are being targeted by the anti-immigrant drive, are the ones who do menial, low-paying jobs.

I don't know where you get that idea from. There is no anti-immigrant drive, there is only a seeking after more stringent control of all immigrants. Once accepted as citizens of their adopted country most do, as you say, work in menial jobs. But not because they are particularly dense, it's because of the language barrier. No Government will allow highly skilled professionals like doctors, nurses or teachers to work in their own field if they can't speak the language. Hence they take lower paid jobs. But to your mind of course being lowly paid equates to being working class whether the people are university trained graduates who in their own countries may well have held down work which you would regard as the epitome of capitalism...

Scapegoating immigrants allows workers of different nationalities and ethnicities to be pitted against each other. It is a body blow to working class solidarity. It also becomes the opening wedge for repressive measures and regimentation of the working class as a whole (i.e., we have to check your papers to make sure you're not here "illegally," that sort of thing.)

You do keep on a bit about the working class and their struggle. As I said above in my previous post it's the European people who are asking for more control. The politicians are merely responding to their citizens' demands. OK the small blip of the rise in the popularity of the ultra right wing parties in Holland and France during the summer gave member states pause for thought but that small blip was the result of people, including the working class, becoming increasingly dismayed at the minimum amount of immigration control.

I suggest that the reason some of the European working class goes along with this anti-immigrant kick is they are frustrated by the assault on wages and living conditions, and the social welfare state in general, which has been going on in Europe for quite some time now, and their anger has been diverted by ruling class propagandists against immigrants, in order to deflect it from the true culprits, the capitalist ruling class.

Completely wrong on this one old boy. It's the fact that we have foreigners begging on our streets, the fact that foreigners are getting housing, the fact that foreigners use our health system, the fact that foreigners use our education system and the fact that foreigners get money from the state for 'pocket money'. And all this without paying into the system in the first place.

And of course there are the illegals who quite often turn to a life of crime just to survive.

Once again REDWAVE it's the people who demand that changes be made. It may be convenient for you to reel off old and well worn phrases from your obviously large library of books on the theories of Marx and leaflets distributed in the street, but the fact is the working class couldn't give a stuff. Even if they knew who Marx was, which I doubt. They're only interested in getting things back to normal as quickly as possible. As we all are.

I still can't get over how so many of the yahoos here think you're a leftist!

I suppose that's the American way. Anybody who doesn't agree with America or makes even the smallest of crticism must be a pinko commie bastard...

ppman

 

[REDWAVE]

Immigrants & fascism

Standardizing visa regulations, eh? Stringent control of all (your emphasis) immigrants? When do the mass deportations start? Any plans for death camps for immigrants? Now that Hitler guy-- he was real good at that stringent control thing, not just for immigrants, but for everyone!

I find it interesting that while the European Union seeks to be very cosmopolitan and internationalist about those nations within the EU zone-- the fortunate few affluent western European countries-- it then wants to erect a "Fortress Europe" against those nasty, darker-skinned, less affluent peoples.

Before 1914, the present system of passports and customs barriers did not exist. Especially in Europe, people could move freely from country to country. That ended during WW1, and the wartime restrictions on movement became institutionalized afterwards. Today, in the neo-imperialist era, capital is free to move quickly anywhere around the world, but people are restricted.

My attitude toward the whole anti-immigrant program and restrictions on free movement of people in general (and BTW, the anti-immigrant drive is much worse here in the U.S. than it is in Europe even) can be summed up in this famous line:

"Papers? We don't need no stinkin' papers!"

But you touched on a key point when you mentioned the far right (i.e., neo-fascist) parties in France and Holland (and Austria-- the "Freedom" Party). Blair's idea of "fighting the far right" is to adopt their program and try to outdo them in immigrant-bashing! Le Pen's National Front in France drew its support mainly from the ruined and demoralized petty bourgeoisie, the classic base of fascism. During the mass demonstrations after the first round, far more people mobilized against Le Pen than marched for him. I remember one commentator remarked that the people at the mass anti-fascist demonstrations looked like they were having fun, while the people at Le Pen's march looked like they were doing it out of a sense of duty. If the French workers had only had revolutionary leadership, instead of the reformist misleaders of Jospin's "center left," they could have easily crushed the fascist vermin in the streets!

 

[REDWAVE]

Damn, what happened to all your stories? I just checked your bio page and they were all gone. You had some good stuff there. Why'd you take them off?

 

[REDWAVE]

DirCat

Oh, I see. You're Dir Cat now, eh?

 

[p_p_man]

Europe is not creating a fortress...

she is doing her best to protect herself from an influx of rudderless immigrants who are already being a drain on social services.

Uncontrolled immigration gives rise to conflict.

Witness the situation in Palestine where the jews were allowed to flood into Palestine with no restrictions whatsoever.

Luckily Europe is stronger than the Palestinians and we have more sway in the international community (and of course our immigrants don't have the open support of the US) so we are able to protect ourselves.

Your link REDWAVE spouts dogma. It spouts old, tired dogma. The 'proletariat', the 'working class struggle', the 'neo-imperialist era' (by the way where did the old one go, and when?) and the 'petty bourgeoisie' are so overused by minority far left organisations that they cease to have any meaning. They just flow into one long line of text which the eye barely registers, let alone pass on to the brain.

If the purpose of the article was to raise peoples' awareness of the immigration issue in Europe it fell far short of its mark. Descending instead into the usual rat-a-tat-tat style of a speech rather than an informative article.

Whereas My Source is a good, solid factual piece...

ppman

 

[p_p_man]

Damn, what happened to all your stories? I just checked your bio page and they were all gone. You had some good stuff there. Why'd you take them off?

I've just checked. They're still all there...

But you do remind me now that summers nearly over it's about time I added some more.

Damn. No time. The mid-terms are coming up and my fingers are already poised over the keyboard for that event...