Hey Laurel!

[Siren]

Hahaha WE have found it....

 

[Sammyjo]

A couple questions...

1) I thought we weren't supposed to bring Madonna up anymore, after what she did to Ravenloft's grandpa...

and

2) My grandma wants to know if there is any correlation between seizure disorder and sodium bicarbonate...if someone can back this up, I will tell her flat out I learned it on a porn site...LOL...imagine the humiliation...

 

[Never]

Doing my best Never impression..

Did someone say Madonnna?

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

[BThat's something I've always wanted to know. Do animals have minds? In "more evolved" species, like porpoises and chimps and even dogs and cats, there's no question in my mind. All evidence moods, personalities, and can solve problems that require "higher level" thinking. [/B]

I'm not as well-read on zoology as I should be, but I do know a little bit about neuroscience. To answer this question you first have to define that incredibly murky term, "mind". We know very well what a brain is. We can study its anatomy and organization, as well as measure the physiological activity of neurons. These are the physical and mechanical properties that science is very good at analyzing.

But while these physical measurements can tell us a lot about the brain, they don't explain the mind nearly as well, because the mind is a subjective phenomenon. We can't measure consciousness or thoughts. To get around this problem, we're largely stuck measuring behavior with the implicit assumption that our behavior is entirely the product of our minds. However there's loads of dispute over that issue on multiple fronts (e.g. B.F. Skinner and his idea that there isn't even such thing as a mind, and that all we are is a collection of behaviors.)

Studying the possibility of "minds" in animals is similar. All we can really do is present them with challenging tasks and see how they respond. I'm by no means an expert, but from what I recall, the evidence isn't definitive one way or another. Certain higher primates (esp. chimps) have been shown to have limited amounts of insight (i.e. the mental ability to solve problems without trial and error learning). Usually when animals learn they stumble upon the correct answer to the problem and are rewarded and the behavior is reinforced in a Pavlovian fashion, but chimps have been shown to stack boxes to make a ladder to get to a banana suspended by a string out of reach and solve other problems with comparable insight.

Cats, dogs, etc. (as far as I know) aren't able to do this (except for maybe Roger's cat. ) As for even lower animals, including spiders, insects, etc. I'm very reluctant to believe that they have any ability to learn whatsoever. They simply don't have the neurons for it.

But as far as self-consciousness is concerned (and I believe this is the most important determinant of a mind) there is only lukewarm evidence that higher primates have it. Yes, they've been taught sign language, and refer to "themselves" (often by name), but the researchers claim that they're still lacking many of the criteria for self-consciousness (unfortunately don't recall what they all are).

This is a good thread. Keep up the good posts, everyone.