Hey Ami,


~~~

Thank you, SeaCat, an interesting piece and an application of solar sails that had not crossed my mind.

The article and the 20,000 objects of space debris, did remind me of WALL E, when he hitched a ride through all the old satellites and space junk in orbit around the Earth. A little overdone in the film, but still...

Helium weather balloons ascend to about 100,000 feet above the Earth, I see no reason that two or more of them, in tandem, couldn't carry a fine mesh between them, launched at an optimal distance apart with the intent of 'sweeping' the atmostphere clean at a given altitude.

I forget the number quoted, but as I recall, several thousands of these weather balloons are launched each day, all over the world. I have no idea how effective they might be in collecting the fine dust from an eruption, but I suspect it would function at some degree of efficiency and then be dragged back down to earth with the accumulated weight of the volcanic material.

Maybe not, and I have neither the math nor the computer program to make such a prediction, but it falls within the realm of the possible as far as I am concerned.

Thanks again...

ami
 
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Helium weather balloons ascend to about 100,000 feet above the Earth, I see no reason that two or more of them, in tandem, couldn't carry a fine mesh between them, launched at an optimal distance apart with the intent of 'sweeping' the atmostphere clean at a given altitude.
...
Maybe not, and I have neither the math nor the computer program to make such a prediction, but it falls within the realm of the possible as far as I am concerned.

The first season of Mythbusters, Adam Savage took flight with weather ballons and a lawn chair -- IIRC, it took 20 weather ballons to lift a 200+ pound man and 30-50 pounds of lawn chair, beer cooler and other accessories into the air.

The lifting capacity of a mere 100,000 weather balloons isn't up to the task of sifting out several megatons of ash if each balloon can only lift 15-20 pounds.

I'm sure your thinking of high altitude research balloons that are several stories tall and can lift a few hundred pounds or even the huge man-rated balloon capable of lifting a multi-ton manned research capsule, but there aren't hundreds of thousands each day of those size balloons and even if there were they'd still be a couple orders of magnitude short of the lift capacity required for megaton levels of volcanic ash.
 
Thank you Weird Harold...know that my offering was merely an attempt to disuade the dooms-day advocates who insist man is at the mercy of nature. I think we are not, to a greater or lesser degree.

Even with the limitations you noted, even the smaller weather balloons, properly dispersed would have some effect on filtering out the fine ash particles at that altitude.

And...if it became a matter of a nuclear winter caused by the ash and dust, then I suggest that if the method were partially successful, great effort would be made world wide to manufacture and launch the larger balloons.

Amicus
 
Even with the limitations you noted, even the smaller weather balloons, properly dispersed would have some effect on filtering out the fine ash particles at that altitude.

Yeah, about the same kind of effect bailing out the Titanic with a stewpot would have -- actually more like trying to organise a bucket brigade with teaspoons.
 
Yeah, about the same kind of effect bailing out the Titanic with a stewpot would have -- actually more like trying to organise a bucket brigade with teaspoons.[/QUOTE]

Have it your way WH, you will regardless of what I might offer. But for those with a more rational approach and who are not willing to go 'tits up' and succumb, all the while blaming man's stupidity for polluting the atmosphere and defacing ole mother earth.

But for the rest of mankind that has an interest in surviving whatever comes our way, perhaps as in seeding clouds at lower levels, then dispersing a chemical element that will bond with ash particles and make them heavy enough to fall to earth might be a solution. Those chemicals could be placed in the proper place either by balloons or chemical rockets that do not ingest air for ignition.

It is more an attitude I choose to address, that of complacency, which seems to have infected at least a generation and perhaps more.

Amicus
 
Oh, ami.

WH disagrees, offers proof, yet you say - Nuh uh! and So there!

And Neener-neener!!!

:cool:
 
Ash particles seed cloud formation and rain.

I have an alternate hypothesis: Usual Suspect blabbering causes global warming. A caustic chemical in their breath rises into the sky, depletes the ozone, then falls to Earth dissolving the bonds of water-ice in Greenland and Antarctica.
 
Yeah, about the same kind of effect bailing out the Titanic with a stewpot would have -- actually more like trying to organise a bucket brigade with teaspoons.[/QUOTE]

Have it your way WH, you will regardless of what I might offer. But for those with a more rational approach and who are not willing to go 'tits up' and succumb, all the while blaming man's stupidity for polluting the atmosphere and defacing ole mother earth.

But for the rest of mankind that has an interest in surviving whatever comes our way, perhaps as in seeding clouds at lower levels, then dispersing a chemical element that will bond with ash particles and make them heavy enough to fall to earth might be a solution. Those chemicals could be placed in the proper place either by balloons or chemical rockets that do not ingest air for ignition.

It is more an attitude I choose to address, that of complacency, which seems to have infected at least a generation and perhaps more.

Amicus

Forgive me if I see a less than rational approach in ami's musings about how to clean up the atmosphere, before or after some natural or man made catastrophe. On a similar note, ami's inability to see, much less comprehend that there are ideas other than his own, which do not involve a willingness to go tits up succumb, is but another ongoing expression of his own irrationality. I would suggest that his irrationality is the product of his assimilation into the Rand Collective, but that would be a presumption.

Putting aside a natural source, such as a volcanic eruption, if it's not human stupidity that has polluted the atmosphere and defaced the Earth, I'm waiting for ami to give us the actual cause of the pollution and defacing.

I would suggest that a ration approach to the problem would be to stop the pollution and defacing, rather than continue and have to come up with a solution in the future. As this would require the captains of industry, those freedom fighters of laissez-faire capitalism, to spend some bucks on cleaning up their act, thus depriving them of the right to put those bucks in their pockets, the Objectivist bystander will object. My guess is the objection will come couched in the code words of the Objectivist Front. "Socialist", "coward of the Intellectual Left" and "opaque thinking of Progressive Liberals" comes to mind.

But for the rest of mankind that has an interest in surviving is Randroid code for non-Randroids are mud to be ground underfoot, fuel to be burned for those (Randroids) who deserve it..

seeding clouds at lower levels, then dispersing a chemical element that will bond with ash particles and make them heavy enough to fall to earth might be a solution. Randroid solutions are irrational. Adding megatonnes of chemicals into the atmosphere is a solution that only someone with friends in the chemical industry could imagine as being useful. But then, perhaps megatons of Freon or PCB's just might do the trick...of putting more bucks into the pockets of the captains of the chemical industry. :(

Also, at max payload of about one half of a tonne for the very biggest high altitude balloons, (which cost millions and need millions of cubic liters of helium)
you would need twenty million of the things to get ten megatonnes of chemicals into the upper atmosphere. Of course you could always use a few million rockets, but that would only be feasible if you are a captain of the rocket industry.

Ami, your ideas are unreasonable. Try again.

The truly dangerous complacency is the one that insists that what's going on now is just fine. It's the attitude of the deniers.
 
This thread maked absolutely no sense to me at frst, because I have ami on ignore via that wonderful plugin. It ignores him so well that if you guys are quoting him, I don't see those quotes either. In fact it took a while to figure out that he was responding-- if indeed you can call what he does "response."

:)
 
It is more an attitude I choose to address, that of complacency, which seems to have infected at least a generation and perhaps more.

There is a difference between complacency and recognising the scale of problem. There may be a solution to volcanic ash in the atmosphere other than patience, but I seriously doubt that it will involve lifting or launching anything material on a scale matcing what mother nature lofted into the stratosphere to cause the problem.

Also note that I've only addressed the problem of removing the megatons of ash from a single volcano. Other atmospheric problems might be "fixable" by man and some might even turn a net profit in getting fixed.

You want to address an "attitude of complacency" but I don't think it is complacency to recognise that mother nature routinely generates more energy in one volcanic eruption or major storm than mankind has generated since the beginning of the industrial revolution. It isn't complacency to recognise that mankind just doesn't have the means to take on Mother Nature with brute force.
 
WH:

You want to address an "attitude of complacency" but I don't think it is complacency to recognise that mother nature routinely generates more energy in one volcanic eruption or major storm than mankind has generated since the beginning of the industrial revolution. It isn't complacency to recognise that mankind just doesn't have the means to take on Mother Nature with brute force.

~~~

A major plan in the anti industrial left, is that man, since the Industrial Revolution, is responsible for global warming. You just confirmed, above, a statement I have made several times, that volcano's such as Pinatubo or Krakatoa, have been far more destructive of the atmosphere than anything man has done. Thank You!

You reinforce that premise by your last sentence in that man doesn't have the means to alter nature.

A point that real climate change scientists have said again and again just as I have repeated on this forum.

I have also mentioned before that the people of Iceland, have, in the not too distant past, actually stopped a flow of molten lava from destroying a port town by spraying millions of gallons of sea water on the advancing lava.

I suggest, that for whatever reason, you vastly under-rate the ability of man to solve problems. Discovered early enough, even the largest asteroids or comets can have their direction changed by a conscious act of man and by several different methods depending on the make-up of the object; iron, jumbled rock, ice, or mainly porous material.

I have no doubt that the innovations of man will come into play should a volcano threaten to darken the sun with ash. I even suspect that future technology might divert solar mass ejections by either a reflective surface between the sun and earth or a solar created magnetic shield to create a shadow effect protecting the planet.

Don't worry, just sit back and hunker down all stoned and nostalgically remembering better times in Pastoral Europe....you may get your wish one day.

Amicus
 
You reinforce that premise by your last sentence in that man doesn't have the means to alter nature.

Do you bother to read what you quote?

There is a very important qualifier in that last sentence of my previous post:
"It isn't complacency to recognise that mankind just doesn't have the means to take on Mother Nature with brute force."

Man does have the capability of altering nature, just not by the use of brute force on the scale a volcano or hurricane can produce.
 
"Brute Force" applies neither to the innovative means to deter atmospheric volcanic ash nor diverting a six mile wide asteroid; it is all cerebral, my friend, I thought that was obvious.

In fact, it is the sentient mind of man, following his number one absolute premise, that of self survival, that taught him long ago not to lock horns with a Mammoth or a Sabre Tooth, but to outsmart the bastards.

And so it goes...

Amicus
 
On my one visit to the Big Island of Hawaii, about 25 years ago, I stayed few nights in a very small town (I think it was Kaimu) where lava from Mauna Loa was coming down the hills and threatening homes. Some of the locals just accepted what Pele was up to, removed their belongings and built again. Some would simply rent a bulldozer and by pushing around the soil, divert the flow of lava away from their home. The lava moved very slowly and by the time it got near to the town, it's temperature wasn't that much of a problem to work around. One of the local pastimes was to toss a fresh coconut right off the tree onto the lava, let it toast for a few minutes, then whack it with a machete to break it open and then enjoy fresh roasted coconut. (I passed on the toasting but the coconut was...a local delicacy.)

For some reason, none of the locals had figured out a way to go to the vents of Moana Loa and plug them, thus stopping the flow at it's source. :confused:

I guess the lesson is that dealing with Nature on a small scale isn't much of a problem. Dealing with high atmospheric ash from a Pinatuba or a Krackatoa is easily remedied by that most cerebral of human methods..wait for the stuff to dissipate. It's worked every time.

As for... A major plan in the anti industrial left, is that man, since the Industrial Revolution, is responsible for global warming. You just confirmed, above, a statement I have made several times, that volcano's such as Pinatubo or Krakatoa, have been far more destructive of the atmosphere than anything man has done. Thank You!...

...Unless I'm mistaken, the atmosphere wasn't damaged, just dusted up a bit and the ash and dust is no longer a problem, thanks to human ingenuity. :D

With CO2 and other gases that cause a greenhouse effect, the atmosphere is once again, just fine. We can pump out all the CO2, SO2, nitrous oxide and methane we can create and the atmosphere will still be there. As for what all that greenhouse gas will do to us...the atmosphere will remain silent on the issue.

In 2009, the CO2 global average concentration in Earth's atmosphere was about 0.0387% by volume, or 387 parts per million by volume (ppmv). This is 103 ppmv (36%) above the 1832 antarctic ice core levels of 284 ppmv.

For atmospheric CO2 to go from 0.0284% of the atmosphere (a small number) up to 0.0387% (another small number)...the human respiratory system couldn't care less. Our blood CO2 levels are unchanged.

As for what else that increase in atmospheric CO2 is doing...it's called global warming. Canada is going to be a beneficiary, with a longer growing season, a net increase in rainfall and the coniferous softwood lumber trees are going to do great. With the changing pattern of the Gulf Stream (it's moving south) Europe is going to be a huge loser as it will no longer get the heat that the Gulf Stream has been bring it's way. Overall global warming will cause areas of cooling and Europe is one of them. It's called climate change.

Because I'm an avid proponent of Randian personal self interest...burn that oil, burn that coal...and best of all...Bring Back the Gas Guzzler!!!! :devil:
 
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