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[Nogard]

Really pissed

Was in Fred Myers today, saw a floor mat. Had an American Flag an and an Eagle, also a logo that said believe in America. Hello, sell it to the Teliban. When they go into their cave, they can wipe their feet on us. Am I over reacting? I spent 22 years in the military. Maybe I am stupid, maybe I am wrong, Thoughts anyone

 

[Gilly Bean]

Umm... take a prozac, please?

Honestly, I don't think there is anything wrong with it per say. They are just trying to get as much patriotic symbolisym out there as they can right now. It's no different then the USA ash treys.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Yeah, Gilly, it actually is a problem

There are rules that were drafted for the flag and one of them is that it never touches the ground. There are soldiers who have died just for the purpose of keeping their colors off the ground. When the flag is on the ground it signifies defeat. When the colors touch the ground it means that we give up and concede everything. When someone walks on the flag, it is the purest sign of disrespect for the country and those who live in it.

There are places the flag does not belong. In ashtrays, on floormats, or any place where the dignity and honor of the flag might be lessened. You wouldn't put your child's face on a doormat and you wouldn't put your love's face in an ashtray. It's insulting and degrading.

Nogard, were I you, I'd draft up a letter that you'd send to the manager of the store and hit the local DAV, FVW, American Legion, and Veteran's Hospital with the news. The outcry will knock that shit off. You are not wrong to be angry and you are not wrong to be insulted.

However, knocking someone's block off, yelling, ranting, and screaming don't work either. Calm, level-headedness and intelligent debate will prevail. Fred Meyer will not want the national publicity. In 1994 or 93 or something, the Art Museum in Anchorage had a gallery event and they wanted to honor the country and those who served her. So they cordoned off an area with velvet ropes and put a flag on the floor. Veterns went ape shit and it made the national media. I see no reason why something of this nature should not have the attention it rightly deserves.

 

[modest mouse]

Re: Yeah, Gilly, it actually is a problem

There are rules that were drafted for the flag and one of them is that it never touches the ground.

Where are these rules and who drafted them?

 

[Nogard]

Whoops, one ahead of you. hope it works but have my doubts. None of these new kids worry about it. Will let you know what Freddy has to say. Will probably have to be in an e-mail, our younger generation doesn't give a shit about America

 

[Willing and Unsure]

Will probably have to be in an e-mail, our younger generation doesn't give a shit about America

so glad you classify all of the younger generation in there... i feel so special now since i *do* give a shit about America

 

[Mischka]

Re: Re: Yeah, Gilly, it actually is a problem

Where are these rules and who drafted them?

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html

 

[lilminx]

so glad you classify all of the younger generation in there... i feel so special now since i *do* give a shit about America

Ditto...

 

[KillerMuffin]

Specifically...

Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 8

Here's a link to the united states code, title 4.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/4/

Cornell University Law Department is an impeccable source for law references. Ask Mish, Lavy, or Siren.

Who made the law? Dunno.

 

[miles]

Nogard

Will probably have to be in an e-mail, our younger generation doesn't give a shit about America

You mean like the guys in the Navy, Army, Air Force, and Marines?
I don't think they would appreciate what you said.

 

[modest mouse]

Those who do not differentiate between the flag and America do not fully understand what this country is about.

The Constitution is the keystone, not the flag.

Intelligent patriotism is always preferable to blindly citeing the virtues of ideals.

*steps down from soapbox*

"Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War"
.......I feel a firestorm coming.

 

[KillerMuffin]

The Constitution is the keystone and the flag is the symbol. What you do to the flag you do the US. The Constitution is arguably the US. The flag symbolizes us and what we stand for. Flags are dramatic symbols because they can be used in so many ways and they seem to have an actual life when they are hoisted. Unlike paper.

And yes, there is law code written down that forbids the flag touch the ground.

If you have a problem with this, write your congressman.

 

[Mischka]

Those who are not aware of the symbolism behind the flag do not fully understand what this country is about.

Sorry my link is broken. It provides illustrations to the USC. And Congress drafted the rules, modest mouse. The President signed them into law. And the Supreme Court has upheld them.

 

[modest mouse]

I understand the rules and I did check your links. I was honestly asking the question about the rules. I am a member of the Sons of the American Legion and have dealt with flag protocol before. I would classify them as guidelines, which is why I asked about any rules/laws that may exist.

I think your antagonism; and dismissal of my point of view is rather premature. I would rather be free than be told my freedoms, thank you very much.

And I wonder why John Ashcroft is allowed to push through all the bullshit he has in the last few months. Maybe it is becoming clear now.

 

[Nogard]

SORRY, I owe a lot of people an apology. I was mad and lumped several people all together, unfairly. Was a little upset about the whole thing. Having worked with the new breed in the military, I have nothing but the utmost respect for them, they are doing a great job and deserve all the support we can give them. I do get upset about some in this new generation that don't seem to give a shit about anything excep themselves. Where is the support for the military?????? There are are a lot of people saying "Let's go get them". If they need the name and number of the local recruiter, I can help them.

 

[Mischka]

I think your antagonism; and dismissal of my point of view is rather premature. I would rather be free than be told my freedoms, thank you very much.

KM and I posted links to the laws and guidelines for the flag. You responded with a flippant remark that people who cannot differentiate between the flag and the country do not understand what this country is about. I cannot imagine how such a comment would inspire antagonism.

 

[modest mouse]

My remark was not flippant and I stand by it.

 

[KillerMuffin]

We shall agree to disagree.

 

[modest mouse]

KM and Mischka

We shall agree to disagree.

I would suspect we are more in agreement on this issue than the latter. I also feel it is possible(in fact not uncommon) to respect an opinion you disagree with.

*secret*...I enjoy a good argument and do not mind when it becomes a little heated. How else are you to flesh out one's feelings about something?

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

A few points:

1) A door matt with an image of a flag is not a flag. Sure it is distasteful that someone didn't have the sense t orealize that it probably wasn't a good idea to make a door matt with an image of a flag on it, but I have seen them around for years - this nothing new.

2) As for the legaility of it. The Supreme Court has upheld desecration of the flag as legal since it is a political statement and they felt that the First Amendment was more important. Therefore it is still legal to burn the flag or whatever you want to do to the flag, regardless of any laws passed by any legislative body.

Do I think it is a good thing to have a door matt with the image of the flag on it? No. Do I want a Constitutional amendment to ban such desecration? Absolutely not.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I love a good debate. This topic, however, will never be a good debate with me. Too close to the heart.

I've been known to play devil's advocate more than a time or two.

 

[kiwiwolf]

Re: Yeah, Gilly, it actually is a problem

years in the military tells me that the flag NEVER hits the deck... for any reason.

There are rules that were drafted for the flag and one of them is that it never touches the ground. There are soldiers who have died just for the purpose of keeping their colors off the ground. When the flag is on the ground it signifies defeat. When the colors touch the ground it means that we give up and concede everything. When someone walks on the flag, it is the purest sign of disrespect for the country and those who live in it.

There are places the flag does not belong. In ashtrays, on floormats, or any place where the dignity and honor of the flag might be lessened. You wouldn't put your child's face on a doormat and you wouldn't put your love's face in an ashtray. It's insulting and degrading.

I have to agree with Killer Muffin here. 9 years in the military tells me that the flag NEVER hits the deck for any reason. Different flag but the same rules.

 

[kiwiwolf]

Re: Yeah, Gilly, it actually is a problem

There are rules that were drafted for the flag and one of them is that it never touches the ground. There are soldiers who have died just for the purpose of keeping their colors off the ground. When the flag is on the ground it signifies defeat. When the colors touch the ground it means that we give up and concede everything. When someone walks on the flag, it is the purest sign of disrespect for the country and those who live in it.

There are places the flag does not belong. In ashtrays, on floormats, or any place where the dignity and honor of the flag might be lessened. You wouldn't put your child's face on a doormat and you wouldn't put your love's face in an ashtray. It's insulting and degrading.

I have to agree with Killer Muffin here. 9 years in the military tells me that the flag NEVER hits the deck for any reason. I served different flags but the same rules apply.