Help with British dialect, please?

[Limnophile]

I have several chapters of a story complete and edited. I just need a couple of paragraphs re-written to sound authentically British. Any region / locality is fine. Would anyone across the pond be kind enough to assist a bit?
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A British father in the USA discourages his American son from joining the Army during the Second World War. -

One Sunday our family arrived early for church. My mother and sisters went inside and my father had a serious talk with me. “Bruce, I know you fancy joining the fight. Think long and hard. Some might come back with medals but others won’t come back at all. I…” He choked up a moment, then rested a hand on my shoulder and looked at me intently. I didn’t see any tears, but he rubbed the corner of his eye. “I would hate to see your mother cry for you.” It was the most emotional I’d ever seen him, and the closest he’d ever come to saying he cared about me. He was ‘Bloody Well British’ and a ‘Man’s Man’, a 250-pound blacksmith at that.

“If you still want to go to war, I’ll sign for you on your birthday in two months. Adventure and glory can be appealing, but there are other things to consider.” He nodded toward Elaine, a busty brunette around 30. “Her husband passed away three weeks ago and she needs a man to help run her farm. A lad who could win her heart would have a home, a sixty-acre farm, and forty acres of forest. Plus, the soldiers can’t win a war with empty bellies. The government are paying well for any food they can package and ship overseas. Please think about it, for your mother’s sake.” The church bell rang and we walked inside.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Were blacksmiths still a thing by the second world war?

At the moment the text reads like an upper-class gentleman stiff-upper lipping his way through it. A more (slightly unspecifically) northern and working class approach might be.

"Bruce, come here, son. I know you're up for the fight and I'm proud of you for it. But don't you go rushing in. Some'll come back with medals..aye, some. But there's them as won't come back at all. I...I'd not see your mother cry for you, not if I can help it."

"If your hearts set on it, I'll sign you up on your birthday. I know you want to do your bit, but still, think on, eh"

"Her husband passed not three weeks ago and she'll need a man to help run the farm. You win her heart and you'll have a home, sixty-acres of farm and another forty of forest. No glory, but our lads can't win the war with nowt to eat so you'll be doing your bit and get paid well for it into the bargain. Have a think about it, eh, if only for your mam."

 

[ElectricBlue]

Were blacksmiths still a thing by the second world war?

Yes, it would still have been a trade between the wars - in the UK, at least.

"Her husband passed not three weeks ago and she'll need a man to help run the farm. You win her heart and you'll have a home, sixty-acres of farm and another forty of forest. No glory, but our lads can't win the war with nowt to eat so you'll be doing your bit and get paid well for it into the bargain. Have a think about it, eh, if only for your mam."

That reads well to my ear, except for "passed". That's very American and, I think, an anachronism. A Brit before the war would have most likely said, "died".

 

[TadOverdon]

"Passed" sounds very contemporary American at that. When I was a child people said "passed away."

 

[TheRedChamber]

"Passed" sounds very contemporary American at that. When I was a child people said "passed away."

Okay, passed away or passed over might be better there. Having thought on it, I'm not sure if there's a better specifically regional alternative.

 

[SamScribble]

Blacksmiths were very much alive and well in UK during WWII. On my grandfather's farm, they were still using teams of Clydesdales for ploughing and such. (Oats and haylege were easier to get than petrol.)

However, the father would have been unlikely to describe the blacksmith's weight in pounds. More likely in stones. Or simply 'He were a big bugger an all.'

Also, the father was unlikely to have addressed his son as Bruce. He probably would have referred to him as 'Lad' or by some family nickname.

And definitely not 'passed' or 'passed on'. People 'died' - or 'carked it', or 'popped their clogs', or 'went to meet his maker', or something of the ilk. During the war, it was not uncommon for people to have 'Gone for a Burton'. Burton was a brand of beer. So, go for a beer and never return.

Good luck

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Definitely get rid of 'passed away' - it's a horrible euphemism.

The previous sentences are long and formal, not how anyone speaks. "I'd hate to see your mother upset/cry" would be an improvement.

Bruce, I know you want to join up. Think long and hard on it, is all I'm saying. Some might come back with medals, but others... they won't.

Was Bruce a known American name in that era? It was the stereotypical Australian, by the 60s.

'bloody English, thank you' and a 'man's man' - capitals read wrong and 'bloody well British' is overkill and wrong.

"If you still want to go, I'll sign the paperwork on your birthday." Two months away. "Adventure can be appealing, I know. But there are other things to think of."

'package' is wrong for a Brit. 'any food they can pack up and ship' would be better. We never have 'packages' of food in shops - packets or boxes.

 

[PennameWombat]

I have several chapters of a story complete and edited. I just need a couple of paragraphs re-written to sound authentically British. Any region / locality is fine. Would anyone across the pond be kind enough to assist a bit?
-
A British father in the USA discourages his American son from joining the Army during the Second World War. -

One Sunday our family arrived early for church. My mother and sisters went inside and my father had a serious talk with me. “Bruce, I know you fancy joining the fight. Think long and hard. Some might come back with medals but others won’t come back at all. I…” He choked up a moment, then rested a hand on my shoulder and looked at me intently. I didn’t see any tears, but he rubbed the corner of his eye. “I would hate to see your mother cry for you.” It was the most emotional I’d ever seen him, and the closest he’d ever come to saying he cared about me. He was ‘Bloody Well British’ and a ‘Man’s Man’, a 250-pound blacksmith at that.

“If you still want to go to war, I’ll sign for you on your birthday in two months. Adventure and glory can be appealing, but there are other things to consider.” He nodded toward Elaine, a busty brunette around 30. “Her husband passed away three weeks ago and she needs a man to help run her farm. A lad who could win her heart would have a home, a sixty-acre farm, and forty acres of forest. Plus, the soldiers can’t win a war with empty bellies. The government are paying well for any food they can package and ship overseas. Please think about it, for your mother’s sake.” The church bell rang and we walked inside.

The formatting in the last two paragraphs makes the dialogue hard to follow. Is that how you plan to keep it or did you compress it for here?

It may or may not play out in the full story, but another consideration would've been conscription. The bulk of the US military forces during WWII were conscripts. Under the 1940 and 1941 statutes, ages expanded from 21-35 to 18-45. After Pearl Harbor, limits on service were ended and in addition to the Army, draftees could go into the Navy. But the Marines never accepted draftees.

Anyway, conscription pressures rose through the war years, but volunteers had slightly more ability to choose their path rather than taking whatever the draft threw at them, especially if they had some skill useful to the military beyond being an infantry rifleman.

Possibly implied at the end of this section in the father's advice is that 'agricultural' work was one possible path to being exempt from the draft. But, that would also depend on the local draft board. There were rules, but many of them varied in implementation at the local levels. Without that exemption, avoiding being drafted would've been a crapshoot for the son. He's apparently healthy, white (yeah, that mattered) and can read. They may have sent him right off to OCS...

Were blacksmiths still a thing by the second world war?

Depends on where the story is set in the US. In an urban area, it would've been very rare, unless the father had switched to factory work. But in more rural areas all over the country, it would've still been a reasonably common profession. Related, he could've easily moved into a job such as a farrier or other metalworker. But he could've referred to himself as a blacksmith and that's how the son thought of him.

How the full story covers this would likely make it clear. I grew up in a semi-rural area in the US in the 1960s/1970s and knew of a couple of blacksmiths even then in the area who handled various tasks as well as farrier work.

Blacksmiths were very much alive and well in UK during WWII. On my grandfather's farm, they were still using teams of Clydesdales for ploughing and such. (Oats and haylege were easier to get than petrol.)

However, the father would have been unlikely to describe the blacksmith's weight in pounds. More likely in stones. Or simply 'He were a big bugger an all.'

The formatting makes it hard to read, but the "250 pounds" is the son's thoughts referring to his father. Having apparently grown up in America, this is certainly reasonable for the son to think in pounds.

Was Bruce a known American name in that era? It was the stereotypical Australian, by the 60s.

According to the US Social Security Administration records, for American boys born in the 1920s (to be near to the right age), "Bruce" is the 133rd most common given name. So, yes, known, if not overly common.

But, what I don't know, is if the father is an immigrant from the UK to the US, would 'Bruce' have been a name he'd have chosen for a son in the 1920s?

 

[sixfoot4]

Food in our tummies..not bellies
Farm not agricultural

 

[Seadog777]

First thing you HAVE to make up your mind about is WHERE in the United Kingdom your character is going to be from.

A Brummie(Binghamton) accent and dialogue is very distinct from someone who lives in Essex, who's different from someone in Harrow, who's different from someone is Leeds, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

First thing you HAVE to make up your mind about is WHERE in the United Kingdom your character is going to be from.

A Brummie(Binghamton) accent and dialogue is very distinct from someone who lives in Essex, who's different from someone in Harrow, who's different from someone is Leeds, etc, etc, etc.

Also depends how long the father has lived in the US, and where, and how much he appears in the story. If he's only having a few lines before shutting up, does it really matter where he's from?

 

[Limnophile]

Thanks to all of you for all the great information and assistance!

Apologies that I forgot to mention this is based almost entirely on a true story, so I have changed characters' names for the sake of their descendants. I've seen birth certificates and/or obituaries for some of the MC's family and a cousin actually was named "Bruce". The parents grew up in the Coventry area. If that type of dialect / accent is too obscure or difficult, I guess I could change the location for the story. They arrived in the USA in June 1923 and their boy was born nearly a year later.

The bit of story in my first message is from spring 1942, when he is almost 18. I was unaware the conscription law was changed at the end of 1941, as Pennamewombat said. I will fix that point to say he can either register and probably be drafted, or marry and live on a farm to likely get an exemption.

!!SPOLIER BELOW!!
I don't know the full details of his wedding but I have a few photos. I'll do my best to keep it realistic.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Apologies that I forgot to mention this is based almost entirely on a true story, so I have changed characters' names for the sake of their descendants. I've seen birth certificates and/or obituaries for some of the MC's family and a cousin actually was named "Bruce". The parents grew up in the Coventry area. If that type of dialect / accent is too obscure or difficult, I guess I could change the location for the story. They arrived in the USA in June 1923 and their boy was born nearly a year later.

Coventry is a very neutral accent. It's close to Birmhingham but doesn't really have any of stronger features of that the bigger city accent does. If you write in plain neutral English it won't feel wrong. Won't have much character though.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Coventry is a very neutral accent. It's close to Birmhingham but doesn't really have any of stronger features of that the bigger city accent does. If you write in plain neutral English it won't feel wrong. Won't have much character though.

This. It's pretty generic Midlands, as long as you don't get into talking about small round bread products. It'll have mellowed after nearly 20 years in America, just to be understood. My in-laws parents would be the right age and region, and their speech was pretty neutral. If you avoid Americanisms and overly-formal phrasing, it'll sound fine. (I end up writing Americans by removing all the British phrases, then putting a few US usages in - it can work the other way, too)

My character Richie is from Coventry in the 1990s, but class is more of a feature of his speech than location (he ends up moving a lot).

 

[Seadog777]

Also depends how long the father has lived in the US, and where, and how much he appears in the story. If he's only having a few lines before shutting up, does it really matter where he's from?

That's true. Sometimes it doesn't take long to lose the accent. Sometimes the person never loses it.

Damn, I need to get back over the UK.
Visit some friends again.
The rail pass is AWESOME!!!

 

[ishtat]

Coventry is an interesting location for the origins of the family, because on 14th November 1940 the Luftwaffe carried out its most successful blitz of the war. 43,000 homes destroyed, unknown numbers killed, and massive damage to the city's vehicle building industry. Almost any family which had emigrated to the USA in 1924 would have known people who died that night. The young man hero easily have the additional incentive of revenge. Kingston upon Hull was bombed more often than any other city but no single raid hit Britain harder than the first attack on Coventry

 

[TheRedChamber]

Coventry is an interesting location for the origins of the family, because on 14th November 1940 the Luftwaffe carried out its most successful blitz of the war. 43,000 homes destroyed, unknown numbers killed, and massive damage to the city's vehicle building industry. Almost any family which had emigrated to the USA in 1924 would have known people who died that night. The young man hero easily have the additional incentive of revenge. Kingston upon Hull was bombed more often than any other city but no single raid hit Britain harder than the first attack on Coventry

Yes and the city was rebuilt on the cheap after the war, mainly out of concrete making it to this day one of the least pleasant city centres in the country (with hints of what it was around the cathedral which miraculously survived.)

Personally I quite like it, but then my hobby is collecting retro video games and hence I judge a city based on how big their branch of Cash Converters is. My parents moved halfway between Coventry and Leicester twenty-five years ago and my mum has since been there exactly twice (not counting the multiplex and the IKEA on the outskirts)

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Yes and the city was rebuilt on the cheap after the war, mainly out of concrete making it to this day one of the least pleasant city centres in the country (with hints of what it was around the cathedral which miraculously survived.)

No, Coventry Cathedral was destroyed by the Luftwaffe and then rebuilt - the new cathedral is one of the most famous modern buildings in England. Lovely stained glass.

Nothing else to recommend the town, other than being on good train lines to elsewhere. Quote from Educating Laura: "What's Coventry like, anyway?"
"Boring. Has a stupid ring-road round the middle."

How likely is it that news of the Coventry blitz would reach farming country in America in a hurry, given censorship and interruption to mail?

 

[nice90sguy]

Not a bad attempt. But as soon as I saw the name "Bruce" the text didn't read as British English to me (but don't change the to "Nigel").

"Adventure and glory can be appealing" would sound more British if it were changed to "Adventure and glory might be appealing"
No need to go down the rabbit-hole of British regional variation if you want authenticity. There are certain key words and phrases that most British people use, and few Americans use (and vice-versa). "Might" is one of those.

 

[TheRedChamber]

No, Coventry Cathedral was destroyed by the Luftwaffe and then rebuilt - the new cathedral is one of the most famous modern buildings in England. Lovely stained glass.

Nothing else to recommend the town, other than being on good train lines to elsewhere. Quote from Educating Laura: "What's Coventry like, anyway?"
"Boring. Has a stupid ring-road round the middle."

How likely is it that news of the Coventry blitz would reach farming country in America in a hurry, given censorship and interruption to mail?

Hmm, Google seems to be on your side with that one. Wonder where that misinformation came from when I moved there? Anyway, the point still stands that the bit around the catherdral is slightly nicer.

 

[SpindleTop]

Just to add to what others have said here, I don't think that "Bruce" is the sort of name that a blacksmith from Coventry would have given his son in the 1920s. (Assuming that the son is approaching 18 and that the story is set in the early 1940s.) Alternatives might be: Joseph (shortened to Joe), Derek, Leonard (shortened to Len), Jack, Albert (shortened to Bert).

If you are searching for a surname, then have a look at: https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/most-popular-surnames-coventry-revealed-23056377 . (I would suggest "Black" as it's a little less common than "Smith", if you want to suggest that Bruce's father comes from a family of blacksmiths.)

 

[Seadog777]

I never went to Conventry.
I fly into Heathrow then take the Rail Pass to Birmingham and Liverpool.
Then take a LONG train ride up to Aberdeen.
Down to Sheffield then over to Ipswitch.
I hit up Southend-on-Sea, then to Portsmouth.
Then back to London and I fly home.

It's been many years since I've visited. Though we all keep in touch through phone calls, texts, and video chats.

 

[SpindleTop]

"Adventure and glory can be appealing" would sound more British if it were changed to "Adventure and glory might be appealing"

Depending on when he emigrated to the US, Bruce's father is likely to have fought in WWI. British recruitment propaganda during that war tended to emphasise the honour/duty of fighting for "King and Country" and camaraderie (joining up "with your pals"). Whatever the expectations, four years of trench warfare in France and Belgium would have been a cold, hard, muddy slog. If the prospect of "adventure and glory" was being used in US recruitment propaganda, then a British WWI veteran would naturally view such claims with extreme scepticism.

 

[SpindleTop]

Definitely get rid of 'passed away' - it's a horrible euphemism.

I think a British working class person of that period would tend to avoid saying "died" or "passed away". How about "Her husband's gone..." as a euphemism or even "She buried her husband three weeks ago, poor thing. She'll be looking for a man to run her farm."

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm an American so I have nothing useful of substance to add to this thread but I'll add some general thoughts as a reader on how I respond to authors' attempts at handling dialect.

"Dialect," in written form, consists of three different things: vocabulary (the choice of words), grammar (the way the words go together), and accent (how the sound of the spoken words is rendered by the author).

As a reader, my general advice is to make sure you are accurate and authentic on vocabulary and grammar (not easy unless you are personally familiar with that dialect) and don't overdo it on the accent. As far as accents rendered in written form are concerned, a little goes a long way. It's OK to let readers use their imagination.

If I were trying to write a Scottish character, I might have them say "wee." That would let every American know, "This character is Scottish, not American," because no American says "wee." But there's no way I would try scrupulously to respell each word so it "sounds" like Scottish. I have no doubt it would be a disaster. I would have absolutely no clue how to write a character with a Midlands accent, which I can just barely sound out in my mind.

If an author is a little sketchy about the details of a dialect, as a reader I personally think it's OK for the author to write the character's speech in more or less standard grammatical English, with minor changes here or there to suggest a regional or class affiliation. I think most readers are forgiving on that point. It's much better to do it this way than to overdo the handling of dialect and screw it up. Then it becomes unintentional (and usually bad) comedy.