Heinlein vs? Rennard (UK politics & sex)

[fifty5]

Heinlein celebrated sexuality - honouring female sexuality.

Complaints have been made against Chris Rennard about "inappropriate behaviour". When I saw one such complaint covered in detail, the woman in question seemed offended by an implied invitation for sex, not by the undoubted evil of getting sex by blackmail due to C Rennard's position of power.

What do AHers think? Are Heinlien, and maybe Rennard, moral or not?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Well, if it was an invitation and she said, 'no' and he dropped the matter I don't see what she's got to gripe about. So long as 'no' means 'no', that's it. She is an adult, I presume, and has the ability to consent or refuse. What else does she want, for him to propose marriage first?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Heinlein didn't actually celebrate women being sexual unless it was in for his benefit. He celebrated the fuck out of his own dick, especially when it was sliding into pussy... And it makes for good reading, too. I think he was plenty moral, though, he wrote his women as enthusiastic and positive partners. And I have never heard that he groped female fans at conventions or book signings.

Rennard's invitations are alleged to have been of the unexpected groping variety. And the numbers are rising. Even the powerful men around him were afraid of him.
So... How about those morals?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Now we're talking about abuse of power and that's totally immoral anyway you look at it. Light him up!

 

[Safe_Bet]

Heinlein celebrated sexuality - honouring female sexuality.

Complaints have been made against Chris Rennard about "inappropriate behaviour". When I saw one such complaint covered in detail, the woman in question seemed offended by an implied invitation for sex, not by the undoubted evil of getting sex by blackmail due to C Rennard's position of power.

What do AHers think? Are Heinlien, and maybe Rennard, moral or not?

You are comparing the writings of Heinlien the SciFi author to the actions of some old perv in the House of Lords? REALLY???

Okay... why the hell not?


Heinlien wrote about pedophilia and incest with minors. Both are things I think are reprehensible.

Rennard IS a serial harasser who has "accosted" up to 10 women REPEATEDLY (including following one to the freak'in bathroom to proposition her) and who has "allegedly" used his position to intimidate for sex. He THEN has his equally scummy buddies cover for him. He is JUST as reprehensible if not more so than Heinlien.


EDIT: There is also the issues of writing FICTION about something and actually DOING it. Rennard wins the "You Suck, Asshole!" award for the actual doing.

 

[fifty5]

You are comparing the writings of Heinlien the SciFi author to the actions of some old perv in the House of Lords? REALLY???

Okay... why the hell not?


Heinlien wrote about pedophilia and incest with minors. Both are things I think are reprehensible.

Rennard IS a serial harasser who has "accosted" up to 10 women REPEATEDLY (including following one to the freak'in bathroom to proposition her) and who has "allegedly" used his position to intimidate for sex. He THEN has his equally scummy buddies cover for him. He is JUST as reprehensible if not more so than Heinlien.


EDIT: There is also the issues of writing FICTION about something and actually DOING it. Rennard wins the "You Suck, Asshole!" award for the actual doing.

If you are right about "REPEATEDLY" and "used his position to intimidate for sex" then it is right to condemn him and his behaviour as despicable. However, so far, I haven't seen any evidence to say so. If there is some, I'll agree with you. All I'm saying is that I haven't seen it, just slurs. I can't blame him for trying - or his "equally scummy buddies". All I've seen so far are unspecific accusations of "Inappropriate behaviour" and testimony that he wanted sex. I want sex!

Not believing that no means no is indefensible. I find it harder to blame someone for asking...

Heinlein made a big point about the genetic basis against incest. In the context of multi-century lives, if that scientific criterion is met, then why is "incest" wrong?

 

[Safe_Bet]

If you are right about "REPEATEDLY" and "used his position to intimidate for sex" then it is right to condemn him and his behaviour as despicable. However, so far, I haven't seen any evidence to say so. If there is some, I'll agree with you. All I'm saying is that I haven't seen it, just slurs. I can't blame him for trying - or his "equally scummy buddies". All I've seen so far are unspecific accusations of "Inappropriate behaviour" and testimony that he wanted sex. I want sex!

Not believing that no means no is indefensible. I find it harder to blame someone for asking...

Heinlein made a big point about the genetic basis against incest. In the context of multi-century lives, if that scientific criterion is met, then why is "incest" wrong?

Did ya even LOOK at the links that Stella was kind enough to share, dude?

Additionally, if you don't see something wrong with a guy who has authority and power over a woman's career "serially" intimating that they should have sex with him (even after numerous refusals from numerous different women - all of which are filing legal complaints) as harassment and "sexual extortion" then you sense of male entitlement must be HUGE!

 

[Stella_Omega]

The only conversation I can see happening here, is you explaining why you haven't seen any specific allegations.

 

[Bramblethorn]

If you are right about "REPEATEDLY" and "used his position to intimidate for sex" then it is right to condemn him and his behaviour as despicable. However, so far, I haven't seen any evidence to say so. If there is some, I'll agree with you. All I'm saying is that I haven't seen it, just slurs. I can't blame him for trying - or his "equally scummy buddies".

"Bridget Harris, a former special adviser to Mr Clegg, said that in a hotel bar at a party conference, the peer repeatedly touched her legs without permission... Another, anonymous, Lib Dem woman, told the channel that the peer once “shoved his hand down the back of my dress”."

Not believing that no means no is indefensible. I find it harder to blame someone for asking...

The thing about asking: it's only meaningful if the ask-ee knows that they're free to say "no" without risk of being punished for it. Power imbalances work against that, and being the chief executive of the organisation where the ask-ee works... not so good.

Heinlein made a big point about the genetic basis against incest. In the context of multi-century lives, if that scientific criterion is met, then why is "incest" wrong?

A lot of incest scenarios - especially parent-child stuff - get back into that "power imbalance" thing.

And, yeah, Jubal Harshaw left me in no doubt that there was a lot of wish-fulfillment in Heinlein's enthusiasm for female sexuality.

 

[fifty5]

The only conversation I can see happening here, is you explaining why you haven't seen any specific allegations.

Since I opened the thread, I have seen more and unhesitatingly yield the point.

 

[3113]

Since I opened the thread, I have seen more and unhesitatingly yield the point.

I am still curious as to why you saw e a comparison between Heinlein's feelings about sexuality n his writings to Rennard's acts. I mean, why Heinlein rather than, say, the writings of Henry Miller or D.H. Lawrence?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Since I opened the thread, I have seen more and unhesitatingly yield the point.

yeah, yuck, huh?

 

[fifty5]

I am still curious as to why you saw e a comparison between Heinlein's feelings about sexuality n his writings to Rennard's acts. I mean, why Heinlein rather than, say, the writings of Henry Miller or D.H. Lawrence?

Just that I've read more Heinlein. In the light of more information, the comparison is odious, but he (Heinlein) suggests that it's OK to ask and OK to accept. The first woman I saw on TV seemed to say she thought it's not OK ("inappropriate") to ask (and said she had several friends who say the same). Another said (on screen) effectively that of course she'd been asked, but had no repercussions when she'd said no - and that went across all parties - which reinforced my reading.

I repeat that more information indicates that isn't the whole story. I'm just explaining how I saw it at the time I started the thread.

 

[sr71plt]

Bramblethorn gave the definitive answer to "is it OK to ask" question I think. It's never OK for someone with any sort of supervisory power over another to even ask the question--and they also are fools just asking for trouble if the subordinate asks the question of them and they say yes. So, it depends on the nature of the relationship.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Just that I've read more Heinlein. In the light of more information, the comparison is odious, but he (Heinlein) suggests that it's OK to ask and OK to accept. The first woman I saw on TV seemed to say she thought it's not OK ("inappropriate") to ask (and said she had several friends who say the same). Another said (on screen) effectively that of course she'd been asked, but had no repercussions when she'd said no - and that went across all parties - which reinforced my reading.

I repeat that more information indicates that isn't the whole story. I'm just explaining how I saw it at the time I started the thread.

Heinlein thought is was OK to ask and OK to accept, but somehow his female characters never seemed to want to decline.

So he sidestepped that part of the criteria. If it isn't okay to say no-- then saying yes is meaningless.

Rennard, well. It's gonna be interesting.

Yeasty times, my dears, yeasty times!

 

[3113]

Confusing

he (Heinlein) suggests that it's OK to ask and OK to accept.

Heinlein thought is was OK to ask and OK to accept, but somehow his female characters never seemed to want to decline

As Stella points out, Heinlein female characters are mouthpieces for him and his beliefs, what he thinks is true, wants or theorizes to be true, not necessarily what is true. At least, I don't remember Heinlein doing any valid studies on the topic with real men/women to find out if his opinion was valid. Granted, there is always personal experience, but even in that Heinlein is on the wrong side: not being a woman, he never experienced being pressured, harassed, groped or raped at work. How would he know what it's really like to be in that position? To have to accept or risk losing one's job?

Putting it another way: imagine a sci-fi author and all the men in his books admit that, when they were kids, an older man introduced them to sex. They all say,"I'm fine. It didn't damage me at all." And the author (who admits that he, himself, never went through any such experience) says, "I think it's okay for a man to ask a ten-year old and okay for the ten year old to accept...." Would you really take this author as a valid authority on whether it's right for men to ask ten-year-olds to bed? Whether the 10-year-old who accepts is doing so freely and without coercion or pressure? Whether or not it leaves the boy undamaged?

I suspect you would, instead, point to all those real, adult men who've were molested as children and what they have to say about coercion, the psychological damage it caused them, etc. Wouldn't you?

Which is to say, shouldn't, in this day and age, your authorities for whether asking/accepting is "okay" in the workplace be real experts who have done real studies with real men and women on the topic?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I admit to not having read Heinlein in a number of years but as I recall when he posits a man asking and a woman agreeing, they aren't in a workplace. Therefore, these two situations are not related. Rennard was abusing his position. Heinlein was exercising his daydreams . . . as do we all in one form or another. The two situations have only sex in common, nothing else.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Putting it another way: imagine a sci-fi author and all the men in his books admit that, when they were kids, an older man introduced them to sex. They all say,"I'm fine. It didn't damage me at all." And the author (who admits that he, himself, never went through any such experience) says, "I think it's okay for a man to ask a ten-year old and okay for the ten year old to accept...." Would you really take this author as a valid authority on whether it's right for men to ask ten-year-olds to bed? Whether the 10-year-old who accepts is doing so freely and without coercion or pressure? Whether or not it leaves the boy undamaged?

Piers Anthony did pretty much this in "Firefly", no relation to the TV series. Except it was with girls rather than boys, and I think he went a bit younger. Bleah.

Yeah, it's a common disease of sci-fi. Author has a Big Theory about human nature and uses a fictional world to demonstrate how it might happen; fans make the mistake of thinking that fictional-world demonstration is a substitute for real-world demonstration.

To be fair to Heinlein, I'll note his disclaimer on one of his best-known works: "But anyone who takes [Stranger in a Strange Land] as answers is fooling himself. It is an invitation to think-- not to believe."

 

[3113]

Got a point, VM

I admit to not having read Heinlein in a number of years but as I recall when he posits a man asking and a woman agreeing, they aren't in a workplace.

Actually, in many instances Heinlein did have female characters working for an older man (if not the protagonist)--though, as you say, the setting was never typical of what we'd call a workplace.

Fantasy-wise, the situation between this older man and his female employees was almost always akin to playboy bunnies at Hugh Hefner's mansion. The older man was usually wealthy and owed a secluded palace where his busty, statuesque employees idyllically worked and lived with him--no conflict of interest ever causing either side any problems.