He tied her up, does that make it BDSM?

[KillerMuffin]

Whispersecret, I'm sure some of you know her, is a really good friend of mine. She just asked me what I thought about an email she received regarding her story. Apparently the emailer was upset because she wrote a BDSM story and didn't call it that. She asked me if I thought it was, but being outside of the culture as I am, I'm not fully qualified to answer that, I don't think.

I didn't think it was, but I do think it's a very good read with several BDSM features in it. But I've been wrong in the past. All ya'll are the experts on this, so I figured to ask you.

Is it BDSM?
What makes it BDSM or not BDSM?
Is there a blurring of the lines here or is this rather a cut and dried category?
Why do you think this guy would think it is BDSM?

Here's chapter 1, you can find the rest easily enough by clicking on her name at the top or the bottom:

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=3481

Thanks guys!!!

 

[CarolineOh]

I am admittedly a BDSM newbie, but my understanding is that the core of BDSM is the Safe, Sand and Consentual credo. This story is about a non consentual situation, although it has elements in common with BDSM.
I have a bit of a problem with the categorization thing. I am never sure where I ought to post my own stories.
BTW, I did think the story was very hot.

 

[Whispersecret]

The reason I asked Muff is because my first reaction was outrage. This guy accused me of trying to fool readers into reading a BDSM story, which is bunk.

I have never thought of "Hostile Takeover," as a BDSM story. It was always a tale of non-consent. But because I wanted my reply to this man to be well thought-out, I stepped back from my emotional reaction and wondered, is it BDSM?

I know the "hero" is a dominant man. The girl he forces is excited by submitting to him, and he does tie her up. But do these elements push the story into a BDSM category? After talking with KM, I still don't think so. But I would love to have some "expert" opinion to back up the reply I'm composing to this man.

Thanks!

 

[Frouwa_Aph]

The reason I asked Muff is because my first reaction was outrage. This guy accused me of trying to fool readers into reading a BDSM story, which is bunk.

Shhhhhh, us BDSM people are planning to take over the world, Hidden agenda and all the stuff... Well of course it's bunk, if a person doesn't like a story for whatever reason s/he will just stop reading it.

I have never thought of "Hostile Takeover," as a BDSM story. It was always a tale of non-consent. But because I wanted my reply to this man to be well thought-out, I stepped back from my emotional reaction and wondered, is it BDSM?

I know the "hero" is a dominant man. The girl he forces is excited by submitting to him, and he does tie her up. But do these elements push the story into a BDSM category? After talking with KM, I still don't think so. But I would love to have some "expert" opinion to back up the reply I'm composing to this man.

Thanks!

Of course non-consent "needs" some forceful elements which resemble forms of BDSM play. But tieing someone up and the victim liking it doesn't make it BDSM. You wrote it in reality mode, not like a BDSM fantasy. So... nope, I don't think it's in the wrong section of Lit.
Let's see... we got incest and romance in there too! Oh my, you're in trouble now...

I liked the story when I came across it earlier, and it gave me some nice ideas for a scene as well.

Monika

 

[Mae13]

I think your critiquer was rather silly...claims of you trying to "trick people into reading BDSM stories"! Makes it sound like there's this movement to insidiously convert people, lol!

I think it's almost impossible to completely pigeonhole any story into just ONE category. So often the lines are blurred...just because there were restraints involved, doesn't make it a BDSM story! I would agree that Non-consent would be the best place to put this story, regardless of the bondage bits in it

As Caroline mentioned...it is part of the whole Safe, Sane and Consentual arguement...where BDSM certainly involves heavy testing of boundaries at times...it is different than this scenario IMO!

Just my lil 0.02 anyway...

And, I did like the story, BTW
mae

 

[WriterDom]

Getting a root canal would not be a bdsm story even though it has elements of pain. A crack dealer hand cuffed in the back of a cop car is in bondage, but that's not bdsm. Any activity that falls outside of consent is not tolerated within the lifestyle. Perhaps, without a non consensual category, the story could be placed in bdsm, but most who are knowledgeable about our ways would find it offensive. Part of the problem is that "bdsm" can be broken down into some pretty scary words for mainstream society. And that rarely in Hollywood does the BDSM "victim" live to see the next sunrise. Perhaps we should take a clue from the homosexuals and take over a non threatening word like gay.

Share with him RS's thread about S, S, and C.

http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=70084

 

[morninggirl5]

Whispersecret,

I read the entire Hostile Takeover series when i first found Lit almost two years ago. There are several different "labels" that might apply, but there are so many different elements entertwined that no one category will ever fit. For me, those elements combined to make it a wonderful story.

IMHO, the reader who was offended was offended because your writing was above his usual jerk-off material and he didn't know how to react to a story that actually had whole characters involved. Actually, my suggestion is that you change the scene from contemporary to medieval and expand it a bit and sell it to Kensington or Brava. Johanna Lindsey's medievals have many of the same elements and they are bestsellers.


mg

 

[RisiaSkye]

Whisper, I hear you. When I wrote "Power Surge," I posted it as Non-Consent, even though it's (to me) an implied consent power struggle between committed partners--clearly a BDSM story. The reason I posted it in NC is because it appears on the surface to violate the Consensual part of the SSC motto, as it's a struggle without the partners agreeing to terms first; I didn't want any confusion, nor to imply that I support the idea of "rape" (even fantasy) as clearly BDSM.

I've read "Hostile Takeover," a series I've always liked. While I think it has strong elements of BDSM, I think that you made the right choice in categorizing it. To me, the relationship (at least at the beginning) is a clearly Non-Consenting one.

My $.02, though redemption value may be lower. Check your local listings.

 

[Whispersecret]

First of all, thanks for all the praise. That was a nice and unexpected by-product of this thread.

Second, it's funny because H.T. is actually categorized under "Novels and Novellas." However, it is obviously non-consent because of a "disclaimer" I included at the top of the first chapter warning readers that it deals with "forced seduction and rape." So, I really don't see how I could have been trying to trick anyone.

Thanks for the info about SS&C. That's illuminating. I can now go back and reply to this person with some confidence that I know what I'm talking about.

As for Kensington/Brava, it's interesting that you should mention them. Sure as shit they would never publish H.T. No one in mainstream publishing is going to touch anything involving rape with a ten-foot pole. The days when a romance writer could get away with the hero ravishing the hero are long gone, and only Nora Roberts or someone of her stature could get away with that.

I wrote a second, longer erotic novel and sent it to Brava, but they rejected it. I had a two-girl, one guy threesome in it, and I think that was just too far. Plus, the hero and heroine just can't cheat on each other in mainstream romance, and I had the guy step out on the girl. Hence, I'm revamping the darned thing and am going to send it again. After changes, I think it will be a good fit for them.

 

[Richard49]

But the question is

I would like to rephrase the question and keep it in this thread

If it is ONLY bondage is it BDSM?

 

[chatbug]

Is ONLY bondage BDSM?

If it is ONLY bondage is it BDSM?

I suppose the question could be more generally stated as "What single thought or action causes you to cross the line from vanilla to BDSM?" I don't think it's one thought or action. I believe it's the sum of thoughts and experiences.

If you're asking in the sense of putting a story in a category, my answer is "It depends." If the story casually mentions bondage and relates a host of other actions and feelings, I'd say no. If the story revolves around bondage, I'd say yes.

I have a similar problem with a story I wrote, Just Rewards. I didn't consider it BDSM, because it was non-consentual. I put it in the Loving Wives category, but it doesn't fit there either.

 

[Richard49]

Re: Is ONLY bondage BDSM?

I suppose the question could be more generally stated as "What single thought or action causes you to cross the line from vanilla to BDSM?" I don't think it's one thought or action. I believe it's the sum of thoughts and experiences.

If you're asking in the sense of putting a story in a category, my answer is "It depends." If the story casually mentions bondage and relates a host of other actions and feelings, I'd say no. If the story revolves around bondage, I'd say yes.

I have a similar problem with a story I wrote, Just Rewards. I didn't consider it BDSM, because it was non-consentual. I put it in the Loving Wives category, but it doesn't fit there either.

I was asking broader than just stories.
Since looking at BDSM online the last month
I have always been RT before
I see people claiming they are in the lifestyle
OK...I have seen people claim to be subs because they have been tied up but nothing else.....

Yes I agree it is a mind set....however.......to say you are in the lifestyle because you are into.....well...I think you get my point...
It is something I am struggling with........

I guess it goes with a thread Cym started yesterday about online and offline

Richard

 

[cymbidia]

Richard, you entered a world that you never knew existed when you moved from 100% real time BDSM to cruising about this on the net.

It's exceedingly disheartening for some of us to know what we know about BDSM sexuality from its touch and scent and feel and from looking into the eyes of our partner, day after day, month after month, year after year, and building that so-fragile but still solid wall of trust that gets such lip service here.

It's depressing and enraging to read the thoughts of people who clearly have no idea about what that kind of daily, real-life relationships calls from us as people, as lovers, as Dominant or submissive.

I understand your upset.

However...
this net has allowed us a new world.
It's given us a freedom we never had before.

In doing so, it's extracted a price: there will always be people who know less than us but who pretend to more. There will always be predators who use this as a way to get cheap quick fucks at the expense of those they're fucking over. There will always be bad info out there, and bad people.

So it is for us.

You gotta calm down.
With all your experience and all the time you've spent thinking about all this, you can be of help to those with whom you come in contact, those the gods toss your way. You cannot, however, help every one of the millions from evey country on earth who are seeking into this kind of sexuality.

Remember who you are and what you know, and don't know. Go from that place of strength. Remember that a lot of this is really funny stuff, this online BDSM.

You've got what so many do not: years of real experience.
Use it for the good, grasshopper, Sir.

 

[Richard49]

grasshopper

Richard, you entered a world that you never knew existed when you moved from 100% real time BDSM to cruising about this on the net.

It's exceedingly disheartening for some of us to know what we know about BDSM sexuality from its touch and scent and feel and from looking into the eyes of our partner, day after day, month after month, year after year, and building that so-fragile but still solid wall of trust that gets such lip service here.

It's depressing and enraging to read the thoughts of people who clearly have no idea about what that kind of daily, real-life relationships calls from us as people, as lovers, as Dominant or submissive.

I understand your upset.

However...
this net has allowed us a new world.
It's given us a freedom we never had before.

In doing so, it's extracted a price: there will always be people who know less than us but who pretend to more. There will always be predators who use this as a way to get cheap quick fucks at the expense of those they're fucking over. There will always be bad info out there, and bad people.

So it is for us.

You gotta calm down.
With all your experience and all the time you've spent thinking about all this, you can be of help to those with whom you come in contact, those the gods toss your way. You cannot, however, help every one of the millions from evey country on earth who are seeking into this kind of sexuality.

Remember who you are and what you know, and don't know. Go from that place of strength. Remember that a lot of this is really funny stuff, this online BDSM.

You've got what so many do not: years of real experience.
Use it for the good, grasshopper, Sir.

I am not upset...really......I am not sure what I feel about the net and BDSM.......

How can you know you are a dom or sub just by online fantasy...and to this humble Dom....that is what onlinbe is fantasy.....

I have learneda thing or two from online but i also have a "context" to think about these things ...

Oh well......

I just would like to meet a RT and move on with my life....

Richard

 

[cymbidia]

Re: grasshopper

How can you know you are a dom or sub just by online fantasy...and to this humble Dom....that is what onlinbe is fantasy.....

To some, Richard, to some of us here in this forum, as a matter of fact, a reallife investigation of what we need and want with regard to BDSM sexuality is *not* an option in our lives.

For some, it's too scary to go do it.
Some don't know how or where to begin.
Some are trapped in marriages that they cannot get out of, or don't want to, but need to find out about the burning desire for BDSM stuff, too.
Some are shy - or too far from a city - or afraid for a million and one reasons.

*MANY* use the net as a place of information or a place to safely try the fantasies that rip and rage through their souls.

Many will never leave the net, never find out how very different doing this is when you can touch your partner. I feel bad for them, feel as if they're crippled in some horribly aweful manner - but it's not my decidion to make for them.

We all choose what's best and right for us in this.
No one can choose for us.

Some will remain online, living what to me is a half life of solitary masturbation to BDSM fantasies. Some will venture forward and touch someone else in the way they most need to touch.

It's their choice.

I have learneda thing or two from online but i also have a "context" to think about these things ...

Like me, like James, you began to do this before there was an alternative. We either reached out and touched someone in a BDSM way or we ached for a completion we couldn't find with nilla lovers.

People today have an alternative.
The world has changed since we began along our roads, Richard. People today can go find out about this, can role-play, have access to an incredible wealth of info. They're more fortunate in this than we were.

They have what we wished for: all the info in the world about BDSM at their fingertips.

Oh what i could have done with this kinda resource when i was still new to this! I envy those just coming to an exploration of BDSM this great wealth of information.

I just would like to meet a RT and move on with my life....

Me, too.

For most of us, once we've had a real BDSM relationship, online games cannot begin to meet our needs.

Nothing can compare to the feel of skin against skin, in any sexual context, BDSM or not. Nothing can replace it. For those of us who ache for the almost-indescribeable more that is contained within a more-than-just-sex BDSM relationship, the ache and need are sometimes incredibly acute and actually hurtful.

So, Richard, i, too ache waiting for just the right real life partner to move into my life. You're definitely not alone.

 

[Richard49]

Amen !!!!

Nothing can compare to the feel of skin against skin, in any sexual context, BDSM or not. Nothing can replace it. For those of us who ache for the almost-indescribeable more that is contained within a more-than-just-sex BDSM relationship, the ache and need are sometimes incredibly acute and actually hurtful.

So, Richard, i, too ache waiting for just the right real life partner to move into my life. You're definitely not alone.

Nothing compares is right
Ame sister.........
yes oh yes

Now Sister cym would you please pass the offering plate <grin>

Once you have had the real thing
at lest for me
once you have had the collored sub
nothing can replace it but the real thing

However I would not turn down a little fun i nthe mean time <big evil grin>

 

[DRxBlue]

Wonderful to watch a thread grow~

This one seems to have grown from a thread to a net. Now it's trapped me too.

i found this thread accidentally, looking for Whispersecret's posts. i read almost all of HT last night, to the end, and (i'm afraid) ended up dumping a HUGE heap of feedback posts in her email box.

(for which i profoundly apologize, i'm really not an obsessed fan)

The idea that "Hostile Takeover" is some kind of stealth BDSM propaganda is LAUGHABLE. But i can imagine having someone misunderstand to that degree would be ~~ upsetting, at least.

i can only imagine the threat people who have no knowledge of BDSM feel. Perhaps they think that, like Druggies or Commies, the Dom/mes will lure you in and once you are in their CLUTCHES .... that's the end of you.

i guess that's the point, i can only imagine.

i ended up thinking of HT as an amazing love story, but not one you could put in the Romance category. It's really tough to pigeonhole; that IS the wonder of Lit. Now there is a library for books from outside the Dewey Decimal System.

Up until about a week ago all i knew about BDSM was that i didn't know anything about it. i had few preconceptions except that what i heard from Hollywood was BOUND to be a lie.

Most of the sites on the Web (which i found unattractive) presume you "speak the language". A passing remark made by RisiaSkye (bless you luv) got me to peek behind the dungeon door.

HOLLYWOOD was RIGHT! it was the end of me!<larf>

i think it's been proven by a lot of the submitted stories that all the whips and chains in the world don't make a story BDSM until you get inside the heads of the people who play with those toys.

Just realizing that it IS play, like little kids do, AND play, like actors do, AND play like musicians do was an overwhelming realization to me.

Play:
as in freedom, like recess,

as in discipline, like learning your lines and becoming a character,

as in control, like learning the mechanics of an instrument, the notes of the music, the emotional content of the composer and yourself.

here i am, just turned 50, still a little kid, and finally i find out that i've never learned to play.

i'm humbled, and delighted!

That'll be 2 pennies, please. If you think it's worth two cents

 

[James Blandings]

Re: But the question is

I would like to rephrase the question and keep it in this thread

If it is ONLY bondage is it BDSM?

I tend to the notion that the term BDSM is extremely inclusive. I consider "just bondage' "just spanking" etc. to be respectable variations within the broad framework of BDSM. I believe in taking care to avoid elevating any one aspect of BDSM over the others as primary. The D/s aspect is different, but in my opinion, not better or higher on some scale than the more purely physical aspects. I have no problem considering someone who's interest is in ropeplay or spanking as much of a fellow member of the lifestyle as I do those who practice 24/7 D/s

 

[Richard49]

D/s is different

I tend to the notion that the term BDSM is extremely inclusive. I consider "just bondage' "just spanking" etc. to be respectable variations within the broad framework of BDSM. I believe in taking care to avoid elevating any one aspect of BDSM over the others as primary. The D/s aspect is different, but in my opinion, not better or higher on some scale than the more purely physical aspects. I have no problem considering someone who's interest is in ropeplay or spanking as much of a fellow member of the lifestyle as I do those who practice 24/7 D/s

I agree with you comment.

Now if the online preditors,want-to-be....etc. realize this or if "we" can define it well enough and public enough...oh well...it is snowing here and I always get wishful when it does <smile>

 

[catalina_francisco]

Another good thread for the brainbox....though mine hurts tonight so I am not thinking too much and it shows.

Catalina

 

[david_42]

Originally posted by Richard49
I would like to rephrase the question and keep it in this thread

If it is ONLY bondage is it BDSM?

For me, bondage is the only part of BDSM worth the bother. I'm a top, but not a dom. Many people won't even consider that a possibility; however, that's my kink. I have no interest in controlling someone's life, just restraining their freedom of movement.

Rope bondage can also be an art form and not BDSM.

Other people, other kinks.

OK, some flogging is good too. IF she's tied up first.

 

[Quint]

Good bump for a good read, if nothing else. One of my preferred tales on Lit. I dunno what I think of the debate; I just knew that whatever it was, it pushed the right buttons. Most of the BDSM section on Lit just leaves me cold. I guess I don't like analyzing my wet spots. Egads! Quint just passed up an opportunity to analyze something!

 

[sincerely_helene]

Good bump for a good read, if nothing else. One of my preferred tales on Lit. I dunno what I think of the debate; I just knew that whatever it was, it pushed the right buttons. Most of the BDSM section on Lit just leaves me cold. I guess I don't like analyzing my wet spots. Egads! Quint just passed up an opportunity to analyze something!

(*Pantkegel, splooshie, splooshie!*)

 

[L_Atropos]

BDSM limits are personal. The edge is a personal issue...perhaps being just tied up was very extreme for her.....

In the end, what is "true" bdsm, and what isnt - is a personal matter.