Has BDSM changed?

[Marquis]

It's been a long time since I first got into BDSM, about 20 years, to be exact. Society has changed tremendously in this time. I've also changed. I used to think I was just very naturally very progressive, and would always be so. By American political leader standards, I am still very progressive, but I do find that the spectrum has widened a bit to include a lot of beliefs that I can't get behind.

For anyone who has been in the scene long enough to hold a perspective on this, I am curious if you find that BDSM has also changed?

It's been a long time since BDSM was really a big part of my life and I'm wondering if I might make a return. It would be good to know what to expect.

 

[Marquis]

I'm browsing through the threads now and I'm encouraged to see that much is the same.

 

[ultramarineblue]

I think just like anything there are things that change and things that stay the same. The boards here seem different somewhat from when I first started reading them but not necessarily in a bad way. I do miss some of the discussion about kink that I used to read or perhaps it may be the voices that are no longer here.

I was just starting to go back to munches somewhat near me right before the pandemic. There were a lot of new people and some of my old friends. I think they are very serious about vetting people for anything beyond a munch which makes me very happy.

 

[Goldenfinger]

I think when things increase in popularity you see it become more mainstream. Larger sections in the adult stores and more stores that specialize in it all together. So has it changed, yes.

 

[Marquis]

I think when things increase in popularity you see it become more mainstream. Larger sections in the adult stores and more stores that specialize in it all together. So has it changed, yes.

50 Shades really was a game changer wasn't it?

 

[ToPleaseHim]

50 Shades really was a game changer wasn't it?

Despite the terrible writing and the less than stellar story, the popularity of 50 Shades did open up a lot of minds. Prior to 50 Shades, I never had anyone just bring up BDSM in conversation outside of Lit. Granted, I think the reality is that a lot of couples tried some kinky sex, not that droves of people started exploring power exchange at a deeper level, but anything that gets people to open up and try things is good in my opinion. I do think it’s just easier for many to bring up in a new relationship, too.

 

[Lady2020]

I'm a novice. It's been my experience that when men say they are Doms or alphas without providing IRL or OL info, they're just fishing for a bimbo w a duct-taped mouth.

 

[Squeeze_Tight]

Apologies if I'm projecting slightly, but I think this is on the topic you're discussing. One changing area that may empower a woman to feel more confident taking charge of her lover, is the area of fitness.

Previously women typically aimed to be slender and it was rare for women to be seriously into weightlifting, whereas in recent years women have embraced their power a lot more, and from what I've seen are the ones doing serious work with free weights in commercial gyms.

The growing number of women who are more physically powerful than their lovers may have lead to more female led relationships in the bedroom, or perhaps the ratio never changed, but the nature of those relationships did.

 

[ToPleaseHim]

I'm a novice. It's been my experience that when men say they are Doms or alphas without providing IRL or OL info, they're just fishing for a bimbo w a duct-taped mouth.

Most of them, yeah absolutely. When you click with someone with compatible kinks, though, magic can happen.

 

[hulmule]

Never got to watch 50 Shades of gray. Is it worth the watch? Wander where i could find it on line? When it first came out wanted wife to watch. That was a big no from her. So i'm going to watch myself , just maybe get her to watch now

 

[VilHaMer]

Never got to watch 50 Shades of gray. Is it worth the watch?

Basically... no. It's not really a great movie; the actors don't have a very good chemistry, the Dom in the relationship is more a stalker than what a real dominant should be, the things they do are pretty low-level stuff...

What 50 shades did was make BDSM a bit more acceptable to the mainstream audience. It opened some eyes about how common it is and that BDSMers aren't really the dangerous evil people some have thought, but just normal people who are into some stuff that's a bit out of the ordinary. That said, it's not a great book and it's not a great movie. It's not a good example of what BDSM really is.

If you want to see something that tells you more about real BDSM, watch the CSI episodes featuring Lady Heather. She really emphasizes that a BDSM relationship doesn't have to be sexual and that it's based around the consept of consent.

 

[Anthonysdaughter]

It has. By Lord Voldemort's proclamation it changed on December 16, 2019 at 12:01 am (London Time). You should have received a copy of the memo. You are on the mailing list. Check your spam folder...

 

[Lady2020]

Most of them, yeah absolutely. When you click with someone with compatible kinks, though, magic can happen.

I agree.

 

[MeekMe]

I thought about this question a lot but couldn’t articulate my thoughts well enough to answer until now. What prompted me was finally seeing the movie Blade Runner. It’s been a while since I’ve seen a movie from the 80s and one particular scene left me feeling kind of distraught. If you haven’t seen the movie there’s a part where the protagonist gets really rapey. The woman in the scene attempts to leave but the male protagonist gets in her way and blocks her exit then essentially forces himself on her in a rather intimidating and violent way telling her to say things like, “I want you.” There was this dread I felt for her and a disgust for the protagonist I still can’t get over. They go on the run together and it seemingly implied she was “playing hard to get” and just needed him to force the situation. I think about this and I’m reminded of Revenge of the Nerds, also an 80s movie. In this one a woman is tricked into having sex with a different person and this is viewed as acceptable because the sex was… good?

I think as a society we have begun to finally take consent seriously and recognize these behaviors as wrong. BDSM seems to highlight the importance of consent because the practices can more easily have the worst optics. Viewed from an outsider BDSM looks rather scary, but an 80s teen movie where the leading male tells his friends they can do what they want with his drunk, passed out ex-girlfriend was just fun and acceptable (for the time). Maybe even just deserts for being a bitchy slut.

It’s media like this that makes me uncomfortable because there was a time when I couldn’t see the problems inherent in the media messaging. I didn’t think anything of these examples and maybe even felt a bit of “she deserved it.” Now I can clearly see it and it’s not funny, cute, or acceptable. But the messaging was there and we’re still trying to deprogram society from these perfectly acceptable for the time messages. It’s a really slow progression in my opinion.

Speaking of 50 shades, this getting so popular I think helped to further the subject of consent. Remember how BDSM has bad optics? Well now it has slightly less bad optics because so many have championed how it exists between consenting individuals and gave a platform for speaking out about the weird rapey stalkery vibes that so many looked at as “romance.”

I don’t think that BDSM has necessarily changed, but I think the highlighting of practices within the BDSM community has helped to change the bigger picture in society. There’s definitely still problems that need solutions. I like to think BDSM has had a rather positive impact on greater society.

And this doesn’t mean these societal problems aren’t present in BDSM. There are so many things still happening that many would argue are perfectly fine, however, maybe we need to scrutinize and be honest with ourselves about it.

This turned out longer than expected, hopefully it didn’t go to far away from the subject.

 

[DCO_65]

Adult women are either moral agents with the same adult human rights as any other or we are perpetual children and this is the last generation because you can't... Uh, well, you know with mental children. So given that adult women must have the same rights as all other adult humans, then that must include the right to have as much of whatever form of sexual activity we desire with whomever we want to whenever we wish. (Note that no further language is required. Consent exists because my right to a thing is equal to your right.)

When my close friends and I graduated from high school we built a commune that evolved into a commercial organic farm. We stuck together by working and building a business as well as a life together. A favorite game was something we called "scheduling." We posted a big graph that covered time for the next week for all of us. We planned out our jobs and blocked out job assignments, sleep, outside commitments, appointments and such.

That left a good chunk of time that was uncommitted. We gave to our lovers the revokable right to "use us sexually" during certain blocked out periods of time. Consent was pre-granted. We had some basic rules-- like make sure you have time to finish what you started. We knew what our "others" liked, and we knew where we could "push the envelope."

It evolved into a system where people could create multi-player trades with each other. Sam works my shift later so that he, Larry, and Lynn can tie me to the bed in my sleep as the dawn was braking and wake me up in a very fun and intense way. (Then I get to sleep it off while Sam works in my place.)

It's like skydiving, you give your consent when you strap the 'chute on and get into the airplane. If you don't like it, you don't have to do it again. But you can't really say: "You know, I changed my mind" after you step out the door.

Restrictions don't protect people, they restrict people, they take choice away. Many restrictions are written by those who would gain advantage by disadvantaging others. Others are just poorly thought out, often knee-jerk reactions. If the city takes trash cans off the street, trash doesn't magically disappear, it just gets dropped directly on the street. Electric cars don't eliminate air pollution, they just move it to a single concentrated point (often a smoky coal-fired power plant).

 

[DCO_65]

You can change your mind at ANY time during a scene or relationship.
AT. ANY. TIME.

Respectfully, you have the right to say to your lover that they have as much or as little discretion as you wish to give them. And I have the right to give my lovers my "next hundred hours..." Wait, I've gotten older while I wasn't paying attention-- I really did 100 hours when I was 25 or so... I can give Tom, Dick, and Harry my unconditional acquiescence for the next 20 hours.

I either have the right to say "yes" for both the moment and the next 20 hours because I am a moral agent. Or I have the right to do neither because I am something less.

To me true surrender cannot come with a safeword or an out. I trust my playmates, I know that I am valuble beyond measure to them. I'm not playing with anyone that I wouldn't trust with my life. But in real life the ground is approaching at thity-two feet per second (that's thirty-eight Kelvinnewton per Kilowattgram in Metrigrade, I think).

I don't want someone asking me this and that. I want lovers who pay attention to me to try things out and see where it goes while gauging my reaction. That's fun. And I like to reciprocate.

 

[MeekMe]

Regardless of what one person says is their “one true way” I’m going to put this here as a PSA to the unfamiliar or new people looking for info: you can identify as submissive and still withdraw your consent at any time for any reason and it does not make you less than. If you withdraw your consent (which no justification is needed) it should be respected without delay.

 

[cookiecat]

Adult women are either moral agents with the same adult human rights as any other or we are perpetual children and this is the last generation because you can't... Uh, well, you know with mental children. So given that adult women must have the same rights as all other adult humans, then that must include the right to have as much of whatever form of sexual activity we desire with whomever we want to whenever we wish. (Note that no further language is required. Consent exists because my right to a thing is equal to your right.)

When my close friends and I graduated from high school we built a commune that evolved into a commercial organic farm. We stuck together by working and building a business as well as a life together. A favorite game was something we called "scheduling." We posted a big graph that covered time for the next week for all of us. We planned out our jobs and blocked out job assignments, sleep, outside commitments, appointments and such.

That left a good chunk of time that was uncommitted. We gave to our lovers the revokable right to "use us sexually" during certain blocked out periods of time. Consent was pre-granted. We had some basic rules-- like make sure you have time to finish what you started. We knew what our "others" liked, and we knew where we could "push the envelope."

It evolved into a system where people could create multi-player trades with each other. Sam works my shift later so that he, Larry, and Lynn can tie me to the bed in my sleep as the dawn was braking and wake me up in a very fun and intense way. (Then I get to sleep it off while Sam works in my place.)

It's like skydiving, you give your consent when you strap the 'chute on and get into the airplane. If you don't like it, you don't have to do it again. But you can't really say: "You know, I changed my mind" after you step out the door.

Restrictions don't protect people, they restrict people, they take choice away. Many restrictions are written by those who would gain advantage by disadvantaging others. Others are just poorly thought out, often knee-jerk reactions. If the city takes trash cans off the street, trash doesn't magically disappear, it just gets dropped directly on the street. Electric cars don't eliminate air pollution, they just move it to a single concentrated point (often a smoky coal-fired power plant).

It's a given adult women have the same rights as other adult humans. Adult submissives have the same rights as other adult humans. But consent doesn't exist in some equal bubble. That's the nature of BDSM play. A feeling of inequality. A power exchange.

You say "Consent exists because my right to a thing is equal to your right" and that no further language is required.

What? Lots of language required. How is consent granted? Agreed on? How do I - as a submissive who might be bound, gagged, hooded - let you - as the top who is administering the agreed on activity - let you know this isn't going the way I had imagined.

Of course consent is "pre-granted." It should be. But isn't consent a fluid thing? It's not static, a one-time deal. In the example I gave above where I'm bound, gagged, hooded, are you saying I can't withdraw my consent because we already agreed this thing would happen?

A bdsm scene isn't the same as skydiving. At any time, I can use a safeword. I'm not freefalling with no choices. I might like to feel that way! And yet, I need to know I have a choice to say stop. Or slow down. Or check in with me.

In a later post, you say you don't use safewords and that you play with trusted partners. People you trust with your life. People who won't ask you "this and that" but will pay attention to you. It's awesome you have those folks in your life.

In my life, I've played within many different situations. With trusted partners; with people I trust who aren't partners; with someone I just met who was vetted through people I trust.

As much as I want people to just know me, just "pay attention" to my body language, my vibe or whatever, it doesn't always work that way.

When I first started exploring bdsm, I was pretty naive. I let my pussy do a lot of my thinking. I just wanted people to do stuff to me. I couldn't really even explain what that stuff was. I put myself in some icky situations.

Yes, as an adult woman, an adult human, I should have known better. In a vanilla dating situation, I would have. BDSM was new to me. Feeling submissive was new. I didn't think I could tell a top / dom NO or STOP or SLOW DOWN. Especially in the middle of a scene.

It's super important to let people know - sub or Dom - top or bottom - people just playing - that checking in, asking "this or that," negotiating a scene, using a safeword or a safe signal - these are all necessary, good things.

I wasn't in a relationship for a long time. I wanted to play, I wanted to do fun, kinky things. I didn't have the luxury of time to establish this super trusted, super attentive relationship. Because I had the knowledge about consent, because I heard, read, talked about consent / communication / negotiation, I finally felt comfortable saying no, saying stop, stopping a scene to say I need a minute. I could satisfy my kinky desires because of this.

It's ok to speak up. It's ok to have a safeword and an out. More than ok. It's necessary.

 

[cookiecat]

It's been a long time since I first got into BDSM, about 20 years, to be exact. Society has changed tremendously in this time. I've also changed. I used to think I was just very naturally very progressive, and would always be so. By American political leader standards, I am still very progressive, but I do find that the spectrum has widened a bit to include a lot of beliefs that I can't get behind.

For anyone who has been in the scene long enough to hold a perspective on this, I am curious if you find that BDSM has also changed?

It's been a long time since BDSM was really a big part of my life and I'm wondering if I might make a return. It would be good to know what to expect.

I'm curious what are the beliefs you can't get behind?

I've been involved in bdsm for 15 years, about 10 of those years I was fairly active in our local kink community.

There's definitely been a shift in who is coming to munches. There are a lot of younger folks, a lot more people who aren't interested in high protocol. There isn't as much of an "old guard" attitude. This was happening before 50 Shades.

I see a definite shift toward swinging. Or maybe an overlap between bdsm and swinging. When I started, swingers were clearly in their own camp. Now, there's a lot more acceptance in the bdsm world to swinging. This could be my own shift in perspective?? But I feel like there's a shift overall toward a free for all. Everything is good. Everyone is accepted. Not as many rules.

In theory, this is great! In real life this should be great. It's awesome to embrace everything, be non-judgemental, feel free to dip toes in to lots of different groups.

It does create confusion though. Not everyone should do everything. In a group I led, we had a person who wanted to come to munches dressed as a toddler. This wasn't a littles group. Even if it were, munches were pretty vanilla things. When I started and went to parties, there were really clear rules with "Dungeon Monitors" to enforce the rules. As time passed and new folks who weren't interested in so many rules but just wanted to play, have fun, started ignoring rules. It wasn't a one time thing; it was an evoluton of attitudes toward bdsm. Now, in our covid world, parties are starting back up, and rules about vaccinations are being tested.

Anyways. Overall, I think the changes in attitude about bdsm are for the better. It's more open. More go with the flow.

 

[MeekMe]

Fara and Cookie

When I first started exploring bdsm, I was pretty naive. I let my pussy do a lot of my thinking. I just wanted people to do stuff to me. I couldn't really even explain what that stuff was. I put myself in some icky situations.

Yes, as an adult woman, as an adult human, I should have known better.

I think this is pretty common. Even for just vanilla sex it’s pretty common to find yourself in unknown territory and not really know how to handle it. Thinking “I should have known better” is pretty rough when really it was a learning experience where you discovered boundaries. And that isn’t to trivialize the situations but to say that sometimes we don’t know what we don’t know. And this also works in knowing when to back off and respect another’s boundaries as much as knowing when your own should be respected. I cringe at younger me and my behavior in scenarios I wish I had been a better person.

I’m of the mindset that ethically it’s wrong to shame someone for having a boundary or saying no to a scenario regardless of whether they initially said yes, have done it before, have fantasies about said scenario, have done the thing adjacent to the scenario, have created a time limit for the scenario, etc. Shit happens and things change.

 

[DCO_65]

You say "Consent exists because my right to a thing is equal to your right" and that no further language is required.

Perhaps my statement was unclear. If you and I both have an equal right to happiness, then I cannot do a thing that makes me happy and you unhappy. Spelling that out is redundant as it is already stated. If I say to my lovers that they have Carte Blanche for the next ten hours and I go to sleep, then wake up tied to the bed with a penis in my mouth I have already agreed to it. To me that is far more fun than having someone ask me for a blowie in the morning.

But I gave that consent. If you prefer to be asked, then there is nothing on earth that says that you have to give "advance consent."

It just bothers me when people tell me that what I do is not consensual because I did not fill out a SSC form and have a dungeonmaster countersign it in front of two witnesses that are not my playmates.

My mother was the prototype of how a strong, independent woman could enjoy being her lover's sexual submissive. How being a "bottom" was powerful because she was the one who facilitated pleasure in those whom she loved. How being sexually submissive was not being a doormat but sitting back and being chauffeured to the heights of ecstasy.

Mom believed in giving out information of all types in "bite-sized-morsels" at age-appropriate times so that it could be fully digested by her children-- and their close friends as well. I have an older brother and he dutifully leaked the texts to his younger siblings, so I got each message twice. (And mom told each of us the boy version and the girl version.)

She explained how as grown-ups we have an affirmative duty to one another, to not do things that harm other people. She taught us that people exist for their own sake while being part of a community. That people were always an "end" and not a "means to an end." How as lovers we have an even grater duty than that to the population at large... We are responsible for the general happiness of our "other."

"Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible." The Apostle Paul said that in his first letter to the Corinthians (9:19).

I piss some people off by tossing Bible quotes in BDSM and Loving Sibling Incest stories. But anyone who thinks the Bible isn't full of D&S, polygamy, and incest hasn't read it. Mom's dad and her brother were ministers and my cousin and I scoured religious texts "for the good parts" at... Suffice it to say a young age. She is a Pentecostal minister today.

Not just in D&S, not just in sex, but in all personal relationships, we need to pay attention to the other person and note what they find pleasing and displeasing. Then we need to deliver what is pleasing. Even better we should, in addition to delivering a steady stream of what we know works, try things that we can reasonably extrapolate our "other" may find pleasing.

We should gently push boundaries, that's how we grow. Within a love-filled D&S relationship the more modern and rational part of our brain must "know" that we are safe. That our lover will never really harm us. But in the ancient reptilian part of our brain those circuits responsible for self-preservation should be on overload.

Our brain stem should be screaming, "DANGER! WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!" as the turgid penis in our throat keeps us from breathing. We should be in flight or fight mode as the endocannabinoids and endorphins flood into our bloodstream. That is the fun part.

A lover needs to know the difference between No. Don't. Stop. and No, don't stop! IMHO that knowledge comes from his or her attentiveness not a word or tap code. To me it's like the fad of making pledges: If someone needs to officially pledge their willingness to abide by a standard then the battle is already lost.

In one of my stories a young woman accidentally sees her father and his lover engaging in BDSM, and she thinks to herself that her current boyfriend "could never be 'the one' because if (he) tied her up-- just like her father had tied up his lover-- (her boyfriend) might absentmindedly forget about (her) and just leave (her) that way."

 

[DCO_65]

I’m of the mindset that ethically it’s wrong to shame someone for having a boundary or saying no to a scenario regardless of whether they initially said yes, have done it before, have fantasies about said scenario, have done the thing adjacent to the scenario, have created a time limit for the scenario, etc. Shit happens and things change.

Shaming is a form of attempted coercion, and it is always wrong.

That said, any two or more people have the right to consensually make up whatever rules they wish to.

I think this is pretty common. Even for just vanilla sex it’s pretty common to find yourself in unknown territory and not really know how to handle it. Thinking “I should have known better” is pretty rough when really it was a learning experience where you discovered boundaries. And that isn’t to trivialize the situations but to say that sometimes we don’t know what we don’t know. And this also works in knowing when to back off and respect another’s boundaries as much as knowing when your own should be respected. I cringe at younger me and my behavior in scenarios I wish I had been a better person.

I have given up submitting some types of stories here because they just aren't permitted by the 'bot censor. Nothing that I write is predicated on, or is glorifying age. My early stories didn't specify ages. But the robot likes to find the phrase "18-year-old" and permits the story. But it flags a story about the guy who just got out of the army who is in a relationship with the gal who just graduated college as being "underage."

I'm told it is because my style is "hesitant, and incremental." But in RL that is how most new things are. Every first is "unknown territory--" and not just in sexual situations. Just as my mother told me and as I told my children growing up, communication is vital. We should be talking to people about what we are going to do before we try doing it. Because it allows for discussion and it eliminates many surprises.

Society paints a false narrative of guys as being always the aggressors and gals as always being the mindless objects* (sometimes victims) of their unsavory desire. But-- as momma said-- the truth is that both genders desire sexual contact. It is normal and it is healthy. We have needs and desires, we should explore our own selves (physically and emotionally) to see what we think will make us happy.

And we should find those that we can trust before we take our clothes off with them. We should talk about everything that makes us who we are and we should notice if the communication is bilateral. We should talk about sex, because it is an important and enjoyable part of life and interpersonal relationships. We should have and enjoy sex-- it is the gift of a loving God who being all-powerful could obviously have made us genderless.

* "ob*ject noun /ˈäbjekt/ 1. a material thing that can be seen and touched."-- OED

 

[MeekMe]

Absolutely. This is the bottom line and you should ALWAYS have a safe word.

Actually, I understand this sentiment, however, I think one can choose not to have a safe word. It’s inferring that someone having a safe word or withdrawing their consent somehow makes them inferior in some way to Creative Writing Alt that I’m speaking out about. The enthusiasm for safety is certainly welcomed and appreciated.

I’m all about making sure people aren’t shamed by choosing to use a safe word or setting their own boundaries.

I’m not going to entertain the storyteller anymore so I’m out.

 

[cookiecat]

Shit happens and things change.

Words to live by.

 

[rosco rathbone]

It's been a long time since I first got into BDSM, about 20 years, to be exact. Society has changed tremendously in this time. I've also changed. I used to think I was just very naturally very progressive, and would always be so. By American political leader standards, I am still very progressive, but I do find that the spectrum has widened a bit to include a lot of beliefs that I can't get behind.

For anyone who has been in the scene long enough to hold a perspective on this, I am curious if you find that BDSM has also changed?

It's been a long time since BDSM was really a big part of my life and I'm wondering if I might make a return. It would be good to know what to expect.

I cant really deal with the kiddies who were formed by Web 2.0.