Harry Potter; A.S. Byatt's recent critique

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What's going on with Harry Potter. An acclaimed novelists looks at the books.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/07/opinion/07BYAT.html
New York Times 7-07

[excerpts for discussion; I, the poster, am neutral]

Harry Potter and the Childish Adult

By A.S. BYATT

ONDON
What is the secret of the explosive and worldwide success of the Harry Potter books? Why do they satisfy children and — a much harder question — why do so many adults read them? I think part of the answer to the first question is that they are written from inside a child's-eye view, with a sure instinct for childish psychology. But then how do we answer the second question? Surely one precludes the other.

The easy question first. Freud described what he called the "family romance," in which a young child, dissatisfied with its ordinary home and parents, invents a fairy tale in which it is secretly of noble origin, and may even be marked out as a hero who is destined to save the world.

In J. K. Rowling's books, Harry is the orphaned child of wizards who were murdered trying to save his life. He lives, for unconvincingly explained reasons, with his aunt and uncle, the truly dreadful Dursleys, who represent, I believe, his real "real" family....

The family romance is a latency-period fantasy, belonging to the drowsy years between 7 and adolescence. In "Order of the Phoenix," Harry, now 15, is meant to be adolescent. He spends a lot of the book becoming excessively angry with his protectors and tormentors alike. He discovers that his late (and "real") father was not a perfect magical role model, .... He also discovers that his mind is linked to the evil Lord Voldemort....


... But does this [rage he discovers] mean Harry is growing up? Not really. The perspective is still child's-eye. There are no insights that reflect someone on the verge of adulthood. Harry's first date with a female wizard is unbelievably limp, filled with an 8-year-old's conversational maneuvers.

Auden and Tolkien wrote about the skills of inventing "secondary worlds." Ms. Rowling's world is a secondary secondary world, made up of intelligently patchworked derivative motifs from all sorts of children's literature — from the jolly hockey-sticks school story to Roald Dahl, from "Star Wars" to Diana Wynne Jones and Susan Cooper. Toni Morrison pointed out that clichés endure because they represent truths. Derivative narrative clichés work with children because they are comfortingly recognizable and immediately available to the child's own power of fantasizing.

[...]

Similarly, some of Ms. Rowling's adult readers are simply reverting to the child they were when they read the Billy Bunter books, or invested Enid Blyton's pasteboard kids with their own childish desires and hopes. A surprising number of people — including many students of literature — will tell you they haven't really lived in a book since they were children. Sadly, being taught literature often destroys the life of the books.

But in the days before dumbing down and cultural studies no one reviewed Enid Blyton or Georgette Heyer — as they do not now review the great Terry Pratchett, whose wit is metaphysical, who creates an energetic and lively secondary world, who has a multifarious genius for strong parody as opposed to derivative manipulation of past motifs, who deals with death with startling originality. Who writes amazing sentences.

It is the substitution of celebrity for heroism that has fed this phenomenon. And it is the leveling effect of cultural studies, which are as interested in hype and popularity as they are in literary merit, which they don't really believe exists.

It's fine to compare the Brontës with bodice-rippers. It's become respectable to read and discuss what Roland Barthes called "consumable" books. There is nothing wrong with this, but it has little to do with the shiver of awe we feel looking through Keats's "magic casements, opening on the foam/Of perilous seas, in faery lands forlorn."

[end]
 
I understand also.

Even though I loved reading (devouring) all HP books to date and enjoyed each volume more than the previous, I could never bring myself to reread any. I tried, but all the magic was completely gone.

That doesn't happen with the true classics.
 
I was being sarcastic.:rolleyes:

I've re-read each of the books atleast 4 times. I always find new littles details to be amazed about. I discuss every page with my fellow Potterfanatics on Fiction Alley. JKR has not only created an exciting world with loads of funny and realistic details, but she has also created a whole bunch of characters that are growing with each book, developing new flaws and skills, revealing strengths and weaknesses never before known, and her work spans from the first to the last book. There are clues everywhere, hints, foreshadowing, details, details, details, some which bring the story further, some who are there "merely" for entertainment value, to make the story richer and funnier.

JKR is a true literary genius, and her books - are magic.
I want to be as good as her one day.
 
I know intelligent literate adults truly enamored of the HP books. I am not one (I tried, Flicka, really.) There are works labled "children's literature" worth reading more than once, some even those books labeled for very young children with a sentence or two on each page matching lovely illustrations.

The words above from Byatt that resonate for me: ... Who writes amazing sentences.

If a book does not contain a good number of these, not to mention plainly interesting simple sentences, then it does not capture my mind and no amount of quirky or imaginative characters and events will hold me.

I also understand Byatt's point and shivers over Keats.

BTW: I'm not a snob (though I choose to be at times) and do enjoy consumable books (good trash, mysteries that can be read in a sitting, moviestar bios, etc.)
 
perdita said:
The words above from Byatt that resonate for me: ... Who writes amazing sentences.
That's really it, in a way.

Don't get me wrong, 'Flicka. I adore JKR and her work (she used to be my neighbour, I saw her almost every day), and can't wait for the next volume to come out. The books are fascinating when it comes to the characters and the details and subtleties of the whole Potter universe, but I never felt like I gained any new perspective over the world, because of them, and her writing style just isn't all that impressive.
 
I'm wholly with Lauren.Hynde here. They're good books and I've enjoyed each of them, and I think re-read each of them, but I'm thinking of giving them away now to save space because I'm unlikely to keep on re-reading them. I'll probably get the new one when it's in paperback.

The characters do grow in interesting ways, and she can be funny. The detail of the 'world' is not very impressive because there doesn't seem to be anything there other than what she writes down.

But the real problem is she doesn't do anything with her writing. The sentences are dull and workaday. They state what needs to be said to get the plot on, but have no merit at all in themselves. This, to me, makes it escapist, light reading, the way Tolkien for example is not.

Tolkien, Lewis, Alan Garner, Kenneth Grahame, Michael Ende, are swept up in the power of language, and the resonance of literature and myth behind them. Rowling alas isn't. She's intelligent: she's probably well read: she ought to care more for writing.

(Addition re Byatt's comments: Georgette Heyer is a great writer. Not the way Jane Austen is, but I constantly re-read Heyer for the language.)
 
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Rainbow Skin said:
... swept up in the power of language, and the resonance of literature and myth behind them. Rowling alas isn't. She's intelligent: she's probably well read: she ought to care more for writing.
As well put as Byatt's remarks, Rainbow. I don't understand 'writers' who don't dive into language with passion and desire, especialy if they have the possibility to do so.

Perdita
 
Lauren.Hynde said:
Don't get me wrong, 'Flicka. I adore JKR and her work (she used to be my neighbour, I saw her almost every day),

May I kiss your feet?:p

Lauren.Hynde said:
and can't wait for the next volume to come out. The books are fascinating when it comes to the characters and the details and subtleties of the whole Potter universe, but I never felt like I gained any new perspective over the world, because of them, and her writing style just isn't all that impressive.

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree. Everything you dislike, I think just the opposite.
;)
 
Svenskaflicka said:
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree. Everything you dislike, I think just the opposite.
;)
Too late. I'm already agreeing with most of what you say on the rest of the threads in AH. :p
 
I only read the first HP novel. I could understand immediately why so many kids enjoyed it, and at the same time I understood that it wasn't going to resonate for me. As imaginative as it was -- and it was imaginative, no matter how much of a "patchwork" it might be -- it was undemanding. At no point did I feel that I was being led somewhere unexpected -- the way I felt as a kid, for example, when I first read A Wrinkle in Time (which seemed to have been at least a minor inspiration for Rowling, too).

And I may be alone in this respect... I just didn't care much for Harry. I thought the story itself was enjoyable and well-written, but Harry himself didn't really earn my affection. That's why I didn't read the other books. I wanted to like him and I did really like Hagrid and Ron (and his whole family) and Hermione, but... it just didn't happen for me with Harry.
 
Sarah, that's my boyfriend you're talking about!!!:mad:

*watching Galaxy Quest on TV. Alan Rickman with fish fins on his head...*
 
As a long time fan of science fiction and fantasy, I don't find anything terribly strange about the popularity of Harry Potter among children or adults.

For children, Harry Potter contians a multitude of characters they can identify with, facing many problems they deal with everyday -- as well as the problem of saving the world from Voldemort.

However, JKR doesn't "write down" to kids while writing for them. That's NOT true of most of the "Young Adult Fantasy" genre.

Adult fans of Harry Potter are either already Fantasy fans or parents checking up on what their children are reading.

The Fantasy Fans find in Harry Potter a unique vision of a world where the magic users live apart from the Muggles but still live in the same world -- the "there's magic all around us" scenario that any true Fantasy Fan wants to believe in.

The Parents who aren't already Fantasy Fans find an engaging story that serves as well for them as an introduction to the modern Fantasy Genre as it does for their children.

Harry Potter isn't a Great Fantasy, but then it's not intended to be Great Fantasy; It's intended to be a coming of age story about a boy who just happens to be very special in ways that Muggles can't see.

It's an appealing scenario story for children, who often wish they could be "special" in the way that Harry is.

For Adults, it's interesting for the way that JKR mixes the Magical World and the Muggle World -- who hasn't wished for a car that could fly out of a rush-hour traffic jam?

Harry Potter is a story for anyone who regrets the lack of magic in the real world and is meaningless to anyone who has lost that desire for magic to be real -- i.e. it's a Fantasy that appeals to children who like Fantasy, whatever their chronological age.
 
The very little I have read of the HP books seems more childhish, than child-like, if you get me.

There is no depth in the childish, but in the child-like there can be a great deal to learn.

A surprising number of people — including many students of literature — will tell you they haven't really lived in a book since they were children.
This is what I've found. And it's a sad thing.

Sadder yet to find them in a second rate children's book.
 
I like the Potter books. I think they are very very good, and I think anyone who doesn't think so is a literary snob. So there!

Do I think her books will ever be taught in high school lit? Nah.
Are all the adults in Potter world silly one dimensional caricatures? Yes.
Can Rowlings string words together like some of those Russian from the fifties? Uh huh.
Okay, if someone asked me what literary work the Potter books remind me of, I would probably not say Dick, Leguin, Bradbury or Heinlen. You know why? They write science fiction. Duh. Keats? Last I checked, didn’t write fantasy. Zelazny or Tolkein? This is a different type of fantasy here. The X-men probably is the best comparison I can think of.

Dear Lord, I felt a shiver down my spine as the literary snobs began to salivate at that last comment. But it’s true. The Potter books are a very easy to read fantasy book series written for children, much like a written comic book. The characters are likeable and easily identifiable within our own lives. The people that Harry doesn’t like are the people we never hung out with anyway.

However, literary snobs, there are several morality plays being worked out within the books. Like the X-men, there is a focus on discrimination. Harry lives in a closet and wears a dress at times. So do a lot of homosexuals. Not only that, but he has a dysfunctional family. Raise your hand if you really liked your step-mom/dad. Hermoine isn’t a pure blood and suffers from ‘racial’ discrimination. Wesley suffers from social discrimination because his family is poor. These are the problems we face in this world day-to-day, not having to worry about whether golem freak is going to still the stupid ring back. And that is why so many people like the Potter books IMO.

What’s special about the Potter books, is that they’ve captured the imagination of our consciousness *today*. Enjoy them if you can. Don’t player hate.
 
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Couture said:
These are the problems we face in this world day-to-day, not having to worry about whether golem freak is going to still the stupid ring back.

Grrr.

I began reading the Potterbook because my eldest lad liked it (20), our lass enjoyed reading it to the youngest lad.

Beginning reading it is as far as I got. I never went back. It seems for the very reasons that Couture says it's popular.

I have enough to worry about day to day so I like having absurd things to worry about. Why are they building that bridge to nowhere on Jupiter? Where is Tinker when Lovejoy needs him? What is it that's causing the ship to be pulled apart as it circles the black hole? And yes will the golem freak steal the stupid ring back?
Of themselves they will work out in the end. My every day problems are left to me to sort. I could have cared only slightly less about Harry.

Gauche
 
I have to admit, the whole potter thing has not captured my imagination. I followed news of the latest book release solely with interest in the stock portfolio.

The world seems shadowy, like a very poor copy of the original.
Zelazney on the other hand created a rich history, a cast of characters one could love or hate, none of them were 2 DImentional. Vial Eric may have poked Corwin's eyes out, but he was honestly doing what he thought best. And poor insane Brand and his Kin, Moire and her water Kingdom. Those are books I have read over and over, talked about with friends, played an entire online game of, and spent countless hours imaging events in the world not chronicaled. Oh and the elusive question, did he ever mean to write the two books not writen that are shown in the one illustration in the illustrated guide.

Or the Richness of HP Lovecraft, so close to this world but soo differant with an entire Pantheon of evil, government coverups, generations of deceptions, books that seeded the minds of countless future writers.

Potter is more like some books I loved as a child, the black stallion books. Only one I would still read now, becasue it is a much richer world than the rest, and thats #18 the black stallion's ghost. It's set in the everglades with all sorts of perhaps halucinations, perhaps supernatural phenomena, when I first read it in 2nd grade it was a very hard read, but none of the other simpler books compared to it. I believe I am on my 3rd copy, alas cheep paperbacks tend to crumble. That isn't saying the rest of the black stallion books were bad or that potter is bad, just it doesn't have the depth that other works have. The sense there is more going on than just what is being described.

Its like an episode of the twilightzone where whatever is not being illustrated right at that moment fades off into some mist of non-existance.

I am seriously suprised if anyone got this far into my ramblings.

Alex756
 
Alex756 said:
I am seriously suprised if anyone got this far into my ramblings.
Alex, your I found your 'rambling' more interesting than HP.

I am not a snob (today).

Perdita
 
Couture said:
Can Rowlings string words together like some of those Russian from the fifties? Uh huh.
Who, Nabokov? I've never heard Rowling compared with Nabokov, but I'm no expert on either. Or does "Uh huh" mean no?

Okay, if someone asked me what literary work the Potter books remind me of, I would probably not say Dick, Leguin, Bradbury or Heinlen. You know why? They write science fiction. Duh.
I don't really understand who asked the question, but for the record, the last three all wrote fantasy in addition to sci-fi (The Earthsea Trilogy, Something Wicked This Way Comes and Glory Road, as an example for each). And anyway, it seems reasonable enough to compare fantasy with science fiction if we're evaluating the richness of fictional worlds.

The people that Harry doesn’t like are the people we never hung out with anyway.

Exactly. It's undemanding in the sense that it plays to every insecurity of the typical child. That doesn't mean it's wrong or that's awful -- just that it doesn't push any boundaries. It's easy to read, very very easy to read, and when you finish the story, you're exactly the same person you were when you started it. And there's nothing wrong with that. Some people want more, though.

These are the problems we face in this world day-to-day, not having to worry about whether golem freak is going to still the stupid ring back. And that is why so many people like the Potter books IMO.

I don't actually read books to learn how to face day-to-day problems like wearing a dress in a closet. I read books to experience adventure, to encounter beautiful and sublime characters, and to find heroism in one form or another. (And, hopefully, to find beautiful and sublime writing.) I was moved by Huck Finn, I loved Huck Finn -- he earned it. If I'm a snob, it's because I've read enough to know what I like and what moves me.

But for what it's worth -- I seriously doubt that people are reading the Harry Potter books because the books accurately reflect real-world problems. Any book has relevance to a reader if he or she identifies with the character and is able to reduce the conflicts (unsconsiously or otherwise) to relevant abstractions. If you can't do that (as an adult reader), you have no business opening a book in the first place.

Many of us liked the books, but didn't see anything astonishing or timelessly captivating in the writing or the plots. That's all. Hearing someone defend the books on such grounds -- anyone who doesn't think so is a literary snob -- just reinforces the notion that it's a phenomenon inspired more by clever marketing than literary merit.
 
Couture said:
I like the Potter books. I think they are very very good, and I think anyone who doesn't think so is a literary snob. So there!
..........

What’s special about the Potter books, is that they’ve captured the imagination of our consciousness *today*. Enjoy them if you can. Don’t player hate.

I must be a Literary Snob - yes I have read them because my grand-daughters like them.

Now for what I like about HP - JK Rowling has created stories that children want to read. One of my grand-daughters has gone from having a reading age about 2 years younger than her actual age, and hating reading - to having a reading age in advance of her age and being unable to put a book down. That is fantastic.

I admit I envy JK Rowling - I wish I could create a character like HP and earn all the money she has made - to go from living on Income Support (the UK equivelant of Welfare) to Millionare has to be a dream come true!!!!

jon:devil: :devil: :devil:
 
upscale snobbery

Just to be clear: it doesn't take HP books to make me a literary snob; I'm way beyond that. Sheesh!

Perdita :rolleyes:
 
jon.hayworth said:
Now for what I like about HP - JK Rowling has created stories that children want to read. One of my grand-daughters has gone from having a reading age about 2 years younger than her actual age, and hating reading - to having a reading age in advance of her age and being unable to put a book down. That is fantastic.

I think you've hit on THE reason for Haryy Potter's popularity -- it's a series written for children that connects with children's imaginations and encourages reading in a world where reading a book for fun is like wearing a neon sign that says, "GEEK!"

Whatever the literary merits of the series, it is the fact that it has increased literacy around the world by encouraging childrento read that makes it notable and worthwhile.
 
Originally posted by champagne1982 I In my opinion, uh uh means no and uh huh means yes.
Dear Champ,
I wish writers wouldn't use those expressions, because I always have to stop and figure out if it means 'yes' or 'no.' Anyway, I agree with you. I'll bet you're really thrilled about that.
MG
 
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