Handgun Ballistics ?

[colddiesel]

Can someone please tell me whether it is possible or just an urban myth that a large calibre handgun could cause any significant damage to the engine block of a car.

If it is possible, what kind of gun could do it? It should be one which is not too rare in the USA

Could it be a fairly simple gun like a revolver(I don't want to get too technical)..

Could a slim female of say 55 Kilos(120pounds) control the gun well enough to hit a target(sports car) no more than 7-8 metres (20feet) away with four or five consecutive shots.

I need to know this for a story and would appreciate any help.

Thanks

 

[JagFarlane]

Can someone please tell me whether it is possible or just an urban myth that a large calibre handgun could cause any significant damage to the engine block of a car.

If it is possible, what kind of gun could do it? It should be one which is not too rare in the USA

Could it be a fairly simple gun like a revolver(I don't want to get too technical)..

Could a slim female of say 55 Kilos(120pounds) control the gun well enough to hit a target(sports car) no more than 7-8 metres (20feet) away with four or five consecutive shots.

I need to know this for a story and would appreciate any help.

Thanks

Hmmmm lets see...off the top of my head I'd say possibly Remington's single shot pistol that fires the 7mm Rem Magnum rifle shell should do something to it but not sure off the top of my head.

Depends on how skilled she is with a pistol...firing a large caliber pistol isn't just strength but technique as well. If she were firing from a kneeling or even better, a prone position that would assist her a lot. Hitting a moving target is difficult for many from a standing postion, depending upon how fast the target is moving.

 

[Gizzmotick]

Can someone please tell me whether it is possible or just an urban myth that a large calibre handgun could cause any significant damage to the engine block of a car.

If it is possible, what kind of gun could do it? It should be one which is not too rare in the USA

Could it be a fairly simple gun like a revolver(I don't want to get too technical)..

Could a slim female of say 55 Kilos(120pounds) control the gun well enough to hit a target(sports car) no more than 7-8 metres (20feet) away with four or five consecutive shots.

I need to know this for a story and would appreciate any help.

Thanks

A type of gun that you are speaking of I belive is called a "Desert Eagle" and is a 0.50 caliber pistol. It shoots a "50" caliber bullet - the same size as the biggest machine guns on WWII fighter planes... and while it may not be able to go through an engine block, it certainly wouldn't do it any favors. However, it all depends on the type of bullet being fired. An armor piercing bullet would do very well at going through an engine block, but those are intended for machine guns... not pistols. BTW... the desert eagle does come in a revolver style and semi-automatic - and should be available (not cheap) at any decent sized gun store that sells pistols.

As for control, unless she is a body builder, strapped down to a firing post, it is unlikely that she would be able to fire 5 shots in rapid succession. Heck... depending on the pistol itself, it is unlikely that she would even be able to grip the darned thing correctly.

For a gun that large, without a recoil mechanism, your body must take the entire brunt of the recoil. A semi-atutomatic will have some recoil spring, but nowhere near enough.

The first shot (esspecially if it is the VERY first shot the person has ever made with the gun) would bruise the soft tissue of the hands, and cause tingling and numbness in the forearms and some minor pain in the joints and muscles of the shoulders.
THe second round would continue to bruise the hands, possibly causing swelling, make most of the forearm muscles go numb (losing control), and cause most of the upper arm muscles to begin tingling and going numb.
The third shot gets even worse as the body is less able to deal with the recoil of the gun. The arms give way as the recoil happens which means that the holder is more likely to have the gun smack them in the head.

Hopefully - she wouldn't end up like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFJjaj7pXsA&feature=related

 

[millennium_bard]

A 44 magnum with full metal jacketed bullets should raise hell with the engine of a sports car. With mag-na-porting recoil could be handled by a person of small stature who is familiar with the gun in question.
A .357 magnum hot loaded with the full metal jacket bullets should do damage as well. Likewise the Mag-na-porting and training would help handle the recoil.
If the car in question is one with an aluminum engine block, there would of course be greater potential for damage.
There was also a pistol a few years ago, I am not sure of the name anymore, that had two variants. One fired the 5.56mm round that the M-16 uses and the other variant fired the 7.62x39mm round of the AK47. As I recall these had little felt recoil but had one hell of a muzzle blast.
There are other handguns out there with far more power these days, but even with porting etc. the recoil would be hard or impossible to manage for someone that small.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

The answer to you question is "it depends". There is no sidearm made that can knock the block out of the larger sports cars like a Corvette. Those big V8's and V12's have too much mass. Whether the engine would still function after being hit with a FMJ .44 Mag or .50 S&W is questionable. How soon does the damage have to take effect? Punching holes in the radiator is easy and the engine will definitely grind to a stop shortly after all the coolent drains out. Stoping the car in it's tracks, though, requires much heavier artillary. An M16 won't do it. A .375 H&H? Oh yeah, baby! As for my .450 Rigby Rimless . . . heh, heh, heh . . .

 

[slyc_willie]

Your data's off a bit, Gizz.

The Desert Eagle can be chambered in .357 and .44 magnum, as well as .50 AE (Action Express), which is the same diameter bullet as used in WWII machine guns, but nowhere near as heavy, nor with as much powder behind it. But I suspect that's not what you meant.

Any one of those rounds could do enough damage to a conventional automobile engine to stop it, especially if there are four or five rounds well-placed. A 55-kilo woman would have no trouble firing such a handgun if she ahd been properly trained and had practiced extensively with it. I've seen twelve-year-olds at a gun range unload a full clip from a .45 with little discomfort afterward.

Plus, given the situation -- an armed woman facing a speeding car -- adrenaline is going to go a long way to increasing her strength, allowing her to control even a large-bore magnum for a few seconds while she snaps off the rounds. She'd be a bit sore afterward, but the job would be done.

Here's a short list of weapons that would do the trick:

Desert Eagle: Semi-automatic handgun, .50 AE, 7-round magazine, 350-grain bullet travelling at about 1,400 feet per second from the muzzle. The most powerful commercially available handgun on the market.

S&W Model 29: .44 magnum revolver, 6-round cylinder. Dirty Harry's weapon of choice

LAR Grizzly: Springfield Armory makes this suped-up handgun based on the Colt M1911 frame, and can be chambered for a variety of calibers, including .44 Magnum and .45 Magnum (which is a speciality round that usually has to be ordered, and not likely to be in a gun store's stock).

---

Just for shits and grins, if you want real power, try the .454 Casull or .475 Limbaugh. Both are mammoth, 5-round revolvers that fire bullets large enough and powerful enough to bring down a Cape buffalo with one shot.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

As one who has dealt with Cape Buffalo, I agree that on an undisturbed buff both the Casull and the Limbaugh will kill it with a single shot. So will a .308. However, and I speak from experience guys, if Mbogo is pissed off the guy holding the revolver is about to become a statistic. The adrenaline rush those black muthuhs get makes them very, very hard to stop unless you are lucky or skilled to hit the spine. Fortunately, my Ph was very skilled.

 

[R. Richard]

Can someone please tell me whether it is possible or just an urban myth that a large calibre handgun could cause any significant damage to the engine block of a car.

A .357 magnum, which has been around in large numbers for many, many years will punch holes in/crack a cast iron engine block. However, the damage will not necessarily cause the engine to stop running.

I myself fire a .475 Wildey with wildcat loads. If I were to use FMJ rounds, I could be reasonable certain of stopping the engine function after a very short period of time. I don't know the effect of the recoil on a woman, but I don't know of any women who fire the .475 Wildey.

If it is possible, what kind of gun could do it? It should be one which is not too rare in the USA

The .357 magnum is made by any number of manufacturers, including Smith & Wesson, Colt, Ruger, Taurus, etc.

Could it be a fairly simple gun like a revolver(I don't want to get too technical).

The .357 is available in eiher revolver or auomatic form. The older models were mostly revolvers.

Could a slim female of say 55 Kilos(120pounds) control the gun well enough to hit a target(sports car) no more than 7-8 metres (20feet) away with four or five consecutive shots.

The woman you describe could hit the target with several consecutive shots, if she didn't try rapid fire, but allowed herself to recover from the recoil between shots. I would describe the scene as a woman in cold fury, squeezing off the shots in measured fashion, rather than pulling the trigger rapidly.

I need to know this for a story and would appreciate any help.

Thanks[/QUOTE]

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Fuck it. If you wanna do a really good job use an M-60. That's a sort of bulky, single shot rifle and all, but it'll take out a MAC truck's engine at 1/4 mile

 

[JagFarlane]

Hopefully - she wouldn't end up like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFJjaj7pXsA&feature=related

Something about that video screams "I've never shot a pistol before"

 

[cloudy]

As for control, unless she is a body builder, strapped down to a firing post, it is unlikely that she would be able to fire 5 shots in rapid succession. Heck... depending on the pistol itself, it is unlikely that she would even be able to grip the darned thing correctly.

For a gun that large, without a recoil mechanism, your body must take the entire brunt of the recoil. A semi-atutomatic will have some recoil spring, but nowhere near enough.

Not true.

I'm about 5' 6", weigh somewhere around 130 - 140 lbs, and I can control a .44 mag (long barrel) - the Dirty Harry gun, for those who don't know - quite nicely. It's not my gun of choice, I would much rather use my 9mm semi, but I had a man tell me much the same thing you say here: that I was female, and therefore would be physically unable to use a .44. When I told my father what he'd said, he laughed his ass off. I'm very small-boned, with small hands, and although the grip on that size pistol is a tad large to be comfortable, that doesn't mean that I can't use it, and use it damn accurately.

The recoil is a bitch, but I've used most guns out there at some point or another, and as long as you know it's coming, it's not hard to control, either. Just so you don't think that I'm spouting off at the mouth without any real knowledge to back it up: my father was regional head of the NRA in his time (he was a nationally-ranked skeet shooter until his health got bad), I think I was six or seven years old when he first took me for target practice, and I competed one year on my university's nationally-ranked rifle team. I've also competed in several combat courses - you know, the ones where you walk down the "street," and have to decide very quickly if a pop-up is a good guy or a bad guy.

The first shot (esspecially if it is the VERY first shot the person has ever made with the gun) would bruise the soft tissue of the hands, and cause tingling and numbness in the forearms and some minor pain in the joints and muscles of the shoulders.

Sort of true.

Bruise the pad of your palm, probably. Tingling and numbness? Never. Sometimes if its a large caliber gun, your wrist might be a little sore the next day, but that's the joint that takes most of the recoil (and I have very small wrists).

THe second round would continue to bruise the hands, possibly causing swelling, make most of the forearm muscles go numb (losing control), and cause most of the upper arm muscles to begin tingling and going numb.
The third shot gets even worse as the body is less able to deal with the recoil of the gun. The arms give way as the recoil happens which means that the holder is more likely to have the gun smack them in the head.

Unless someone is a 80 lb. weakling, with very little strength in their arms, this is unlikely also.

Yeah, your muscles will get tired, as with any exercise. Also, the more you do it, the more you build up those muscles. I can fire a 30-06 with very little bruising to my shoulder. *shrug* In fact, I'll hurt myself with a gun much less than my husband will, and he weighs over 200 lbs, and is a good seven inches taller than me.

Just because someone is female doesn't mean they can't shoot. And sometimes it can be dangerous to assume so.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Cloudy's last statement is dead on. When I was competing as a young sprout, all the girls outshot me. Later, in the military, I did better but there are always ladies who can wipe my eye on the range and good for them. The old saw "God made man but Col. Colt made them equal," definitely needs an equal opportunity update. Never underestimate an armed woman.

 

[JagFarlane]

Just because someone is female doesn't mean they can't shoot. And sometimes it can be dangerous to assume so.

This statement is very true indeed. -smirks- And this goes for both firearms and archery. One would presume with archery a man would be better, due to the brute strength of the draw. However, archery is one sport where it requires the use of smaller, less used muscles, and combined with todays compound bows breaks a woman on par with men.

Anyways, I digressed. Like I said in my first post, it also depends upon the position used. Holding up a large caliber handgun is hard for many, men included. You're talking a few pounds behind held up at arms length. Use the right position and just about anything is possible.

 

[cloudy]

What kills me is people who've never really been around guns think that you shoot like they see in the movies: with one hand.

Anyone who has experience will always use two hands with a pistol.

as an aside: women seem, as a whole, to be more accurate than men, although I have absolutely no idea why. Steadier hands, maybe?

I have a niece who is on the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Dept., and she wins their sharp-shooter award every single year, beating her husband in competition - and he's an undercover officer.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

What kills me is people who've never really been around guns think that you shoot like they see in the movies: with one hand.

Anyone who has experience will always use two hands with a pistol.

as an aside: women seem, as a whole, to be more accurate than men, although I have absolutely no idea why. Steadier hands, maybe?

I have a niece who is on the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Dept., and she wins their sharp-shooter award every single year, beating her husband in competition - and he's an undercover officer.

I read a shooting coach state that in rifles, at least, women have physiological advantages, to wit: Wider hips give stability in prone and a better support in offhand. Also, their arms are relatively shorter (said he) and thus have a leverage advantage, as well. How this might apply to handguns, I dunno.

 

[JagFarlane]

What kills me is people who've never really been around guns think that you shoot like they see in the movies: with one hand.

Anyone who has experience will always use two hands with a pistol.

as an aside: women seem, as a whole, to be more accurate than men, although I have absolutely no idea why. Steadier hands, maybe?

I have a niece who is on the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Dept., and she wins their sharp-shooter award every single year, beating her husband in competition - and he's an undercover officer.

-chuckles- A lot of it depends upon the weapon used and such.

And yes it kills me too, particularly when they turn the gun on its side because they think its cool. And that video reminds me, there is a certain thing to do with your elbows...not sure if its lock them or not when firing a large caliber pistol [sorry haven't had the opportunity to fire anything larger than a 9mm, perhaps cloudy knows the answer?]

 

[voluptuary_manque]

And yes it kills me too, particularly when they turn the gun on its side because they think its cool.

Oh yeah, I really hope that if I am ever forced into a firefight that the opposition is more worried about his image than about his shooting. It will make my job soooo much easier.

 

[cloudy]

-chuckles- A lot of it depends upon the weapon used and such.

And yes it kills me too, particularly when they turn the gun on its side because they think its cool. And that video reminds me, there is a certain thing to do with your elbows...not sure if its lock them or not when firing a large caliber pistol [sorry haven't had the opportunity to fire anything larger than a 9mm, perhaps cloudy knows the answer?]

I was always taught that locking any of your joints is asking for joint damage, especially when firing something large caliber. I suppose it's like any type of physical sport (and it is phisical), the joint can't absorb shock if it's locked in place.

 

[Weird Harold]

Can someone please tell me whether it is possible or just an urban myth that a large calibre handgun could cause any significant damage to the engine block of a car.

If it is possible, what kind of gun could do it? It should be one which is not too rare in the USA

Could it be a fairly simple gun like a revolver(I don't want to get too technical)..

Could a slim female of say 55 Kilos(120pounds) control the gun well enough to hit a target(sports car) no more than 7-8 metres (20feet) away with four or five consecutive shots.

I need to know this for a story and would appreciate any help.

Thanks

It's not an urban myth, but a typical modern handgun load generally won't do the job because of the trend towards expanding and/or "frangible" bullets designed to minimize penetration.

I know from Experience that, at the range your're talking about, a 358 gr, solid lead "wadcutter" from a .357 Magnum revolver will penetrate both cylinder walls of a Ford V-8 Engine.

The 135 gr hollow points I normally use will NOT penetrate an engine block or any solid metal object thicker than about 3/8 of an inch.

The venerable .45 ACP with Military "Ball" ammunition might get lucky, but the muzzle velocity is too low to be certain of penetrating both the body of the vehicle and crack the engine block.

Most of the guns suggested can penetrate an engine block and rupture a cyclinder wall or seize a piston, provided they're loaded with a solid bullet like military surplus "ball" ammo -- but it's unlikely they would be loaded with solid bullets because the fashion is for hollow points and other "limited penetration" rounds.

Cloudy covered whether a female could fire one repeatedly fairly well, and I'll only add that one of the most infamous "gun molls" in american history was Bonnie Parker who was reportedly barely five feet tall and 90 pounds, yet she handled sawed off BARs (Browning Automatic Rifle: a .30-06 caliber light machine gun) with no problems.

However, for story purposes it would be believable to me if she was able to stop a car with anything larger than 10mm auto or .357 Magnum. Hitting the carburator/throttle body, fuel pump, or distributor would shut down an engine quicker than engine block damage and anything that can pentrate the sheet metal surrounding the engine compartment could do catastrophic damage to any of those (or other critical components.)

A lucky shot through the Engine Control Module (usually hidden inside the passenger compartment to protect it from the elements) would work, too.

 

[JagFarlane]

I was always taught that locking any of your joints is asking for joint damage, especially when firing something large caliber. I suppose it's like any type of physical sport (and it is phisical), the joint can't absorb shock if it's locked in place.

Thanks, had a feeling you'd know the answer

 

[Weird Harold]

I was always taught that locking any of your joints is asking for joint damage, especially when firing something large caliber. I suppose it's like any type of physical sport (and it is phisical), the joint can't absorb shock if it's locked in place.

LIkewise, I was taught not to lock the elbow, but I was also taught to fully extend the arm and "stiffen" the elbow, without locking it, so any recoil from a big caliber was directed up over my head instead of directly back into my face.

I've seenmore than one person with a "hammer dent" in their forehead from relaxing the elbow too much and letting the recoil come straight back.

 

[cloudy]

LIkewise, I was taught not to lock the elbow, but I was also taught to fully extend the arm and "stiffen" the elbow, without locking it, so any recoil from a big caliber was directed up over my head instead of directly back into my face.

I've seenmore than one person with a "hammer dent" in their forehead from relaxing the elbow too much and letting the recoil come straight back.

Yes.

I've seen way more people than I can count on both hands with black eyes from putting a scope right up to their eye. Even saw my husband do it with a 30-06 one time.

I told him not to do that. Guess he'll listen to me next time.

 

[Weird Harold]

Yes.

I've seen way more people than I can count on both hands with black eyes from putting a scope right up to their eye. Even saw my husband do it with a 30-06 one time.

I told him not to do that. Guess he'll listen to me next time.

Sadly, the scope lesson is one I learned the hard way -- although it was a .270 Win and a 4X weaver scope that taught me the lesson.

I did learn the lesson about holding the rifle in tight to avoid "getting two left arms" a bit less traumatically.

I also learned that a Colt 1911 can flip a lightweight eight-year-old ass-over-teakettle if he tries too hard to hold it down when it goes off the hard way.

 

[cloudy]

I also learned that a Colt 1911 can flip a lightweight eight-year-old ass-over-teakettle if he tries too hard to hold it down when it goes off the hard way.

So can an M16...my dad had to stand behind me, and let me lean against him.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Fuck it. If you wanna do a really good job use an M-60. That's a sort of bulky, single shot rifle and all, but it'll take out a MAC truck's engine at 1/4 mile

The M-60 is a Machine Gun...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M60_machine_gun