Guns & Violence?

[RisiaSkye]

I can't help it. I'm terribly biased against guns, and I can tell you why.

In theory, I can actually understand that a truly free society doesn't control what people own, including guns.

In practice, I spent eleven long years in a state that allows concealed carry permits. Businesses have to post a sign on the door if they don't want people to carry concealed guns into their establishment, in many places in Arizona. Exposed shoulder holsters carrying loaded weapons in public places are also not uncommon.

People could, and did, have one two many beers and end up shooting themselves in the foot, occasionally shooting someone else. When I was in tenth grade, a county sheriff gave his mistress an unlicensed gun so she could protect herself from his extremely angry wife. I knew them all personally; it was a small town.

I lived in fear. My father was an abusive drunk, with a firearms dealer's license. He posessed an enormous array of weapons, in a standing sife the size of a small closet. He scared the living shit out of me; truth be told, he scared a lot of people. But, to me, it seemed everybody was armed, and the threat of violence seemed always just around the corner. I can't shake the feeling that the people who desire to possess something which serves no purpose but to kill another person are people who want to kill.

This is actually very personal, and I'm NOT trying to step on anyone. I would honestly like to understand....So, gun people, what makes it appealing? Are you willing to kill?

 

[OUTSIDER]

Guns & Violence?....(sing's)....go together like love and marriage.

 

[Andra_Jenny]

Guns are not about killing.
Guns are an important symbol of freedom and a reminder.
I understand your feer.
But do not seek to order my life based on your fear,
and I will not seek to impose my will upon you,
based upon my fears.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Guns are not about killing.

What are they about? Remember, they aren't just symbols, they're weapons.

Guns are an important symbol of freedom and a reminder.

What freedom is symbolized? Whose? Aren't guns used just as often to enslave? What does it remind of?

I understand your feer.
But do not seek to order my life based on your fear,
and I will not seek to impose my will upon you,
based upon my fears.

I'm not attempting to order anyone's life. I do, however, find it more likely that your will could be imposed on me than mine could on you; I'm unarmed. That others possess the means of deadly force scares me, but not enough that I want to buy a gun to be armed against it. And that's what keeps me confused about it. I just don't understand.

But that certainly doesn't mean I want to decide for you. I just want to discuss it, to see what it looks like from the other side.

 

[OUTSIDER]

Hello and welcome from the UK where we have ultra tight gun control.....where we are all in chain's and slave's to the govt.....where no one has free speach and we live in fear all the time.......NOT.

 

[Andra_Jenny]

yeah,
read p_p_mans thread about the woman being cut in half by a sword and tell me again guns are the fuckin' problem.
People kill people.
Fix people.

 

[RisiaSkye]

I never said guns were the problem. Violence is clearly the problem. Guns just give violent people the means to hurt someone.

And, I'm trying to understand why non-violent people would want to own something that serves no purpose but destruction. Very different intent, I think.

 

[John_Galt]

What freedom is symbolized? Whose? Aren't guns used just as often to enslave? What does it remind of?

Guns are rarely used to enslave people who are armed and capable of defending their freedom.

I'm not attempting to order anyone's life. I do, however, find it more likely that your will could be imposed on me than mine could on you; I'm unarmed.

That's your choice, but it has the consequences that you are suffering.

I used to live in a big city, and there, you couldn't carry a weapon in public without the Police or Sheriff approving your permit. However, the criminals and the drug dealers had a good supply of weapons and weren't afraid to use them. That city had a very high murder rate and violent crime rate, probably in large part because of their laws forbidding most law abiding citizens from having weapons. In that environment, the violent criminals had very little to fear.

That others possess the means of deadly force scares me, but not enough that I want to buy a gun to be armed against it. And that's what keeps me confused about it. I just don't understand.

It scares me too, but now I choose to have defensive tools available to me to protect myself from others who would attempt violence against me.

But that certainly doesn't mean I want to decide for you. I just want to discuss it, to see what it looks like from the other side.

Just think of how much safer your world would be if handguns were illegal for anybody to have. That would make guns as difficult to get as crack cocaine or marijuana. Do you really want a world that "safe"?

 

[OUTSIDER]

yeah,
read p_p_mans thread about the woman being cut in half by a sword and tell me again guns are the fuckin' problem.
People kill people.
Fix people.

you know you can grab onto a headline and point at it and say "man I'd hate to live there" but that don't mean it's as bad as you think, you know if I thought that way then I'd believe that every school in the USA has a gun fight happen there every day.

The real problem with having an armed populace is that it make's muuder to easy, you know to guy's get to argueing and instead of just balling their fist's and having a punch up, one pulls a gun and shoot's the other.

 

[p_p_man]

I've copied this from my own thread...

...instead of sending everyone over there to read it...

"In this area it's more likely to be...
people killing people.

I live just opposite the Royal Botanical Gardens at Kew (a famous tourist attraction), just by the River Thames (another famous landsite) in an area which is heavily populated by Asians of all religions. The Sikh religion insists that they carry knives at all times, even at elementary school, as part of their religious belief. In this area also there is a constant fighting war going on between the Moslems and the Sikhs. The Moslems favour the sumarai sword. Not because of any religious belief, they just favour it.

The fighting war is carried out between 200-300 teenagers on each side, more than a gang more like an army, and the town centre has been closed down on more than one occasion during busy shopping days when the violence has spilled over from surrounding areas.

There are almost weekly reports in the local press of murder where knives or swords have been used. Yet despite all this the area is posperous and most people don't see any violence, they just read about it.

But I think they may dispute your assertion that people kill people and swords don't. That sounds like the type of crap that your gun lobby dishes out to defend the fact that they like feeling macho with a weapon in their hand and that to take it away would be to somehow demasculate them.

In this area it's a strong belief that people kill people: no ifs, no buts, no gray areas, no maybes...but people. And why? because they have the weapons in their hands to carry out the crime. "


__________________
"Everything in moderation - including self denial"

 

[MinkSoul]

well, for some people...

guns=food on the table


just because there's a grocery store near you doesn't mean they're every where. it also might be an economic thing, a couple of bulletts are cheaper then a side of beef...


just a thought...

 

[p_p_man]

Yes MinkSoul...

...that's true.

But my comments are meant to be in keeping with the subject of the thread.

Now if you want to discuss something like - guns are the best things to kill defenceless animals and more humane methods are too slow....

 

[MinkSoul]

oops....

sorry about that p_p_man... i was trying to answer Risia's question about why guns.... i didn't see your post ( i type a bit slow and i usualy have to correct a few spelling errors before i post) as for "humane" killing.... sorry, as far as i'm concerned.... there ain't no such thing... killing is killing, hurts like a bitch...

oh yea... as far as owning a gun.... i don't.... those things scare the hell out of me... i'm just not a big advocate of the fed telling me what i can and cannot do from when i wake up in the morning till i go to sleep at night...

 

[Todd]

my two cents

I do not have a gun, nor do I intend on owning a gun in the immediate future.

Criminals will have gun no matter if guns are lawful or against the law.

I see no point in taking away or making collectors of anitque guns weapons away. I do not ever recall in my past 26 years hearing of a breakin, holdup, hijacking or any other gun related crime to have been committed with a black powder muscket, ball & hammer, ramrod, flintlock or other type of collectable weapon. So I feel the Government should leave these collectors owners alone.

For modern weapons, I think that banning guns is not a solution because then you have a one sided war. The criminals have weapons and the victims will not have weapons.

My solution is that guns should be allowed, but as with being able to drive, Gun owners should take Gun training course, and regular testing of thier skills as to make sure that the gun is not in the hands of a Homer Simpson using it to open thier beercans.

My rational for allowing guns. The criminals will always have guns until you can guarentee every gun on the planet is destroyed, that is impossible so criminals will always have weapons. If a criminal thinks there is a possibility that his next victim might have a weapon to fight back with, the criminal may think twice about who and when and how often he strikes.

I know I sound relatively simplistic on this subject, but virgin Utah is one town in the US you can check the crime drop stats on the subject. In Virgin Utah, in order to live there you have to own a gun in order to have a residence. There the crime reate is nearly 0%. There is a couple of other towns such as this in the US and a few in Canada but virgin Utah is the most well know but the statistics for these towns in North America are all similar.

Go ahead and slap me about.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I've had quite a different personal experience in my life. I was raped at knifepoint, I lived in constant fear for a while after that. I was afraid that some thug might rape me again. I think it's rather a ridiculous notion that everyone get rid of knives, after all, they are nothing but weapons, too. Weapons bad people use to hurt other people with, like myself. Knives are tools, even the ones whose only purpose is to kill.

I live in ruralish Kansas. In a place thats full of copperheads, water moccassins, cottonmouths, and overrun with coyotes. To you these are just words. To me these are very real dangers when we leave town. Three blocks if you must know. Yeah, a shotgun or rifle is nice against them, but the long guns weigh too much to tote around (unless you're the StudMuffin), and use with any reasonable speed or accuracy. I carry around an unconcealed handgun, when I had one, out there for the purpose of shooting dangerous animals, no legged, four legged, and two legged.

I am not defenseless.

I am not a victim.

Samuel Colt said, "Whatever the size, I will equalize." This is only true if you know and practice defense with a handgun.

If you're ever in a dark alley with a hulking brute intent on doing you bodily harm, you'll wish you had a handgun with you. Then the question arises, if you have the gun in that situation, would you use it?

The problem you have is that you've tied guns into the behavior of other humans. You want to legislate responsibility, by legislating weapons. IF the government would use handgun licensing like they handle vehicle licensing, then I would happily be all for it. Unlike some rosey eyed people, I don't trust my government that far. Pretty sad, huh? You see what the FBI and BATF have done to people who stockpile arms, but otherwise have done nothing. Waco and Ruby Ridge, just to name a few.

We could turn around and say the exact same thing about vehicles. In most, if not all, urban areas, public transportation is more than adequate to supply all the transport people need to go from home to work to shopping to recreational activities. People don't need cars. More people's lives have been destroyed by drunk drivers than any other accident, vehicular and otherwise. Perhaps we should take cars away as well. After all, if people don't need them, and drunks can use them to kill, then people shouldn't have them. Ya'll can say all you want that you don't "buy this argument" but blather til you're blue in the face without a good reason.

 

[Weird Harold]

I can't shake the feeling that the people who desire to possess something which serves no purpose but to kill another person are people who want to kill.

I own three rifles and one pistol. Only one of them's purpose is to "Kill People", and that is only it's secondary purpose.

One of the rifles is .22 caliber, and it's purpose is a cheap way to maintain proficiency with a rifle.

One Rifle is an heirloom hunting rifle I inherited from my father.

The third rifle is a replacement for the heirloom rifle so it isn't risked in rough country during hunting season. It was purchased because I like Venison, and it is illegal to sell venison in this state. If I want any, I have to go out and kill it myself.

The pistol is loaded and accessible because I live in an Apartment complex the local chapter of the "Crips" wants to add to their turf. However, it's primary purpose is self-defense against snakes and other wildlife while hunting are target shooting in the desert to practice for hunting. It is loaded and ready for home defense, because it is available for that purpose, not becuse it was purchased for home defense. I used to keep a "cruiser weight" double bit axe near the bed for home defense before I bought the pistol.

Yes, I am willing to kill in defense of my home or myself. No, I do NOT want to kill anyone, and hope I never need to -- BUT I will NOT be a victim if I can prevent it.

 

[Closet Desire]

Sometimes it's pretty simply...

I grew up in the midwest as part of the first generation that didn't have to hunt or fish to augment the table. I never really thought about the guns I had being used to kill people. They were for shooting tin cans, trying to shoot squirrels or rabbits, and generally carrying them around in the forest. So for many of us guns are not synonymous with violence towards our fellow men and women. They are just a part of our heritage and something we happen to like.

I have also carried a licensed weapon and trained law enforcement/security personnel in the use of their weapons. It was as different from the first part as night and day. The weapons and carry methods were chosen for effectiveness against people. The training was to prevent the weapons ever having to be used.

Now? I live in England and, of course, don't have any weapons with me. I sold all my guns except for one which is safely in storage. However, don't kid yourself in to thinking English society is peaceful and presided over by Miss Marple. In the past four years all three of my children and I have been assaulted and/or robbed in our small, upscale community. My seventeen year old son was attacked in the park by 15 girls and sent to the emergency room (they were eventually arrested and convicted). Assaults with knives, beer bottles, glasses, fists, and clubs are all too commonplace and, more frequently than not, not reported to the police (hence they don't show up in crime statistics.) Recently, a research project showed that England had a higher incidence of violent assaults thatn the US.

People are people and, sometimes I despair, people are violent. Racism and violence are all alive and well in merry ole England...the only thing missing is the guns...'cept for the criminals...they've got them.

 

[Pyper]

I'm sorry, but I'm tired of people shouting, "It's the criminals who have the guns! They're ruining it for all of us!" Well, tell me, who are the criminals? I've known people who've been shot, I've known people who have been killed with handguns, and who was doing the shooting and the killing? It wasn't the mysterious "drug dealers" that Todd seems to think are causing all the trouble. It was other teenagers. Heretofore law-abiding citizens that one day got angry and decided to go out and shoot someone. Where did they get the guns? Their parents, of course. Also law-abiding citizens, who decided that they needed a gun for whatever reason.

I see all these excuses about how kids won't use guns the wrong way if they go to classes and learn about gun safety. Well, let's say little Johnny goes to gun safety class when he is seven years old. Six years later, Johnny gets teased mercilessly at high school. What does he do? He uses his gun expertise to take out a few classmates.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people, blah blah blah. By that logic, I should be able to go out and buy myself a nuclear bomb for my protection, because "bombs don't kill people, people kill people". If you feel unsafe in your home or walking the streets, get a better security system, a tazer, pepper spray, or like my parents did after our home was burglarized twice...two really big dogs.

 

[Todd]

It wasn't the mysterious "drug dealers" that Todd seems to think are causing all the trouble. It was other teenagers. Heretofore law-abiding citizens that one day got angry and decided to go out and shoot someone. Where did they get the guns? Their parents, of course. Also law-abiding citizens, who decided that they needed a gun for whatever reason.

The higher percentage of these teenagers that get a hold of these guns are not getting them from thier parents but from the streets illegally, even Democratic CNN admits to that. It's a small percentage that gets the guns from thier parents.

I see all these excuses about how kids won't use guns the wrong way if they go to classes and learn about gun safety. Well, let's say little Johnny goes to gun safety class when he is seven years old. Six years later, Johnny gets teased mercilessly at high school. What does he do? He uses his gun expertise to take out a few classmates.

Where are his parents? Are the parents not seeing a change in thier son from happy outgoing, to sad and depressive. Oh yeah I forgot the democratic parenting says don't involve yourself in your childs life any more than just birthing them. Don't try and help your child grow up with morals or any sort of upstanding. Just let your children do thier own thing totally uninhibited.

That's what wrong with with society today, since 1963 when Madame O'Haire started her compaign. Everyones' authority over thier children has been gradually removed. The parents are not allowed to discipline thier children, The teachers are not allowed to discipline.

We need to take back parental rights, but in a Democratic society parents have no rights anymore. If parents concerned themselves with thier children, most of this, "We didn't know little johnny was disturbed" it would have been spotted and dealt with. If Teachers were allowed to do anything they would recognize signs of deviant behaviour and send the kid for help.

But what the Hey we live in a free country, free to do what ever anyone wants to do.

. . .every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

 

[Pyper]

I don't know any percentages about where kids get guns Todd, but I can tell you, I don't know a single gun-packing teenager that got his gun from "the streets". All the recent school shootings took place in RURAL areas, and the kids either got their guns from their parents or from a gun show. Perfectly legal, and perfectly disgusting. To say that guns come illegally from "the streets" is to imply that all this kind of crime is in the city. Not only is that false, but implicitly racist as well.

I'm not even going to respond to your second part. It has no basis in reality, but that's not so unusual for you, is it?

 

[Todd]

I don't know any percentages about where kids get guns Todd, but I can tell you, I don't know a single gun-packing teenager that got his gun from "the streets". All the recent school shootings took place in RURAL areas, and the kids either got their guns from their parents or from a gun show. Perfectly legal, and perfectly disgusting. To say that guns come illegally from "the streets" is to imply that all this kind of crime is in the city. Not only is that false, but implicitly racist as well.

Why would kids get thier guns at the high city streets prices when they can could to the outerlimits and country and get them a whole lot cheaper and easier.

I'm not even going to respond to your second part. It has no basis in reality, but that's not so unusual for you, is it?

So your saying we don't live in a free society?

 

[Pyper]

Listen carefully, Todd. The kids doing the shooting aren't from the city. They aren't moving out of the city to get guns from the country, and then going back to the city to shoot people. They are shooting people IN THE COUNTRY. Why? Because that's where the guns are. Because when kids in rural areas get angry at other people, they can just grab their parents' guns and take it out on their fellow citizens. In the city, it's much harder for the average person to get a gun, so when they average person gets angry, they just have to deal with it, instead of shooting someone. Aww, too bad, sucks for them.

I'm not going to respond to your ridiculous assertions that Democrats don't raise their children right. Let me tell you another thing: the parents of the kids doing the school shootings? All Republicans.

 

[Weird Harold]

I'm sorry, but I'm tired of people shouting, "It's the criminals who have the guns! They're ruining it for all of us!" Well, tell me, who are the criminals? I've known people who've been shot, I've known people who have been killed with handguns, and who was doing the shooting and the killing? It wasn't the mysterious "drug dealers" that Todd seems to think are causing all the trouble. It was other teenagers. Heretofore law-abiding citizens that one day got angry and decided to go out and shoot someone. Where did they get the guns? Their parents, of course. Also law-abiding citizens, who decided that they needed a gun for whatever reason.

Pyper, I grew up in a small town in Oregon. There were probably about 1.5 guns per household when I was growing up. I think it's closer to about .5 guns per household now. There has never been a case of school violence in the district I graduated from.

45 Miles down the road from my home town is Springfield Oregon, and they've had two shootings in the last decade. The schools where the shootings took place have student populations larger than my home town!

On the other hand, I live about one city block from the border of "the Donna Street Crips" home turf. I haven't gone out and counted them, but I'm pretty sure that within a mile of my apartment, there are more illegal handguns than have ever even passed through my home town.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people, blah blah blah. By that logic, I should be able to go out and buy myself a nuclear bomb for my protection, because "bombs don't kill people, people kill people".

There is one tiny difference between a nuclear bomb and a handgun: Discrimination. A bomb kills indiscriminately, a gun doesn't.

If you can invent a nuclear bomb that only kills the specific person it's aimed at, then feel free to protect yourself with it if you feel that's what it takes to keep you safe.

If you feel unsafe in your home or walking the streets, get a better security system, a tazer, pepper spray, or like my parents did after our home was burglarized twice...two really big dogs.

Can't even put thumbtacks in the walls according to my lease. How am I going to install a security system?

Can't have pets.

Why buy a Tazer or Pepper spray, when I've already got a gun for hunting?

I don't expect to convert you to a card-carrying-NRA-fanatic, but I would hope you could develop kust a bit of rationality on this subject.

 

[Bastet]

Guns are not about killing.
Guns are an important symbol of freedom and a reminder.

what the fuck? you don't see a gun on the american flag or the statue of liberty toting an 357 magnum, do you, andra_jenny? that's idiotic!

 

[Problem Child]

Listen carefully, Todd. The kids doing the shooting aren't from the city. They aren't moving out of the city to get guns from the country, and then going back to the city to shoot people. They are shooting people IN THE COUNTRY. Why? Because that's where the guns are. Because when kids in rural areas get angry at other people, they can just grab their parents' guns and take it out on their fellow citizens. In the city, it's much harder for the average person to get a gun, so when they average person gets angry, they just have to deal with it, instead of shooting someone. Aww, too bad, sucks for them.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. Are you seriously trying to convince us that the murder rate in this country is higher in rural areas than in urban areas? That's nonsense.

It's also nonsense that it's easier to get guns in the country than in the city. I've lived in both and my experience is that rural folks tend to be more educated and respect firearms more than people in cities, but this is just my personal experience. There are dopey people no matter where you go, and unfortunately a lot of them own guns.

I live in an county of California that is mainly rural with a few small towns, the largest being about 60,000 population. Even with a town of that size, our crime rate is incredibly low, and we average maybe one gun related incedent every other year.

Can LA county claim statistics like that?