Growing Up.

[JMohegan]

LOL

Ok, my issue with this is that if becoming a PYL is 'growing up' are you saying that being a pyl is immature, or lesser than? I mean, I know you're not, but that's what I'm reading. I know that for some that they go from pyl to PYL and that's okay, and groovy, but I don't think that's true for everyone nor should it be. I do not see anything wrong with being a sub, any more than I see there being anything wrong with being a dominant. Would it be considered 'growing up' if someone went from being a PYL to a pyl? Am I a making any sense? Things that make you go 'hm'.

As to the 'everyone is a switch thing', I disagree. Quite honestly, K would LOVE for me to be just a BIT more dominant when it comes to sex, so I've tried. And I mean I've REALLY tried. I've done everything, even to the point of getting really drunk once to try and dampen my inhibitions. It did not work. Beyond that, that belief would go the other way. If everyone is a switch, why not PYL's? I know quite a few PYL's who've left relationship, where their bottom decided s/he wanted to top, because they're not bottoms. I don't think they didn't love their pyl's, it's just a matter of they can't switch even for love. I'd be willing to agree that a lot of people are really switches, but I don't think that everyone is.

If I'm not in control, I'm not aroused. And power is an incredible aphrodisiac.

For me, it's just that simple. This is definitely not something I grew into, or up to. It's just the way I'm wired.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

If I'm not in control, I'm not aroused. And power is an incredible aphrodisiac.

For me, it's just that simple. This is definitely not something I grew into, or up to. It's just the way I'm wired.

Bingo.

 

[FloggingMolly]

I also don't see pyl to PYL as 'growing up'. Perhaps as growing into oneself, maybe.

This comes from my own experience of being PYL for several years before discovering and embracing my pylness. Do I see it as 'growing _down_'? No, but I think any change in which you adapt, learn and fulfil or potential is a positive personal growth.

 

[praefect]

Yes and no. I think there is a type for which this is true.

I think it is for one of my own pyls and it could not ever, ever be true of the other pyl.

My mind always jumps to the difference in their perception first when it's about difference between the two, because it's their most profound difference. He, the one I am sure of has a potential as a future dom, is extroverted. She, who has absolutely no ability to dominate and never will, is introverted.

It's not the source or the reason why, I thinik, it just what my mind jumps to first.

He is learning, by watching me. And by experiencing himself. There are things he sucks at. I don't do anything with him that has a focus on internal processes. I don't have him simply bow for me, like I have her, because he wouldn't internalize a process of submission in the act. He would simply do it because I told him to do it. There would be nothing for him in that act that I would consider to be of value to myself. In the same way, when he does top her, this is where he still fucks up. He doesn't take into account her internal processes because he doesn't understand how someone ticks that doesn't tick like he does. And I can sympathize. It took me forever to be able to get how he ticks, and that's one of the things I'm actually very good at. It's a near alien perspective on life from my own.

But I'm digressing. He is learning. slowly. Methodically. He reminds me of someone I read about once, in a way. Ironically he is reminding me of the very extreme end of introversion, of a functioning autist describing how he learned fencing. He learned it in segmented aspects, systematically. For the longest time he wasn't any good, and others judging his progress thought there was none at all, until everything he learned finally came together, and basically from one day to the next, he was awesome at it. Able to compete at amateur levels when before, he wasn't able to compete with anyone. And he learned enough facing good players as he advanced in a local cup, analyzing them as he fought them, their patterns and rhythms, as was his way with everything, that he improved exponentially, again.

Right now, as a dom, my pyl sucks. But he is going to learn, and one day, he is going to be very, very good at it. I'm certain of it. Because of what he has experienced, because of what he has witnessed, and because he will be able to follow suit.

And I think he will want to, then, too.

I want him to. I think it would be great if I could entrust him my other pyl for a session now and then. And if he needed more than that, I'm sure we could work something out, too. I'd be damn proud of that, too. How often do you hear when someone complains about someone else not being dominant enough for them that there is little that they can do. I think it'll be great to be able to show that it can be done. That a lamb can become a lion.

I think he wants to now, he just doesn't know how to. He doesn't know how to assert willpower. What to do with control if it is given to him. But he'll get there. He already is much better at asserting himself, at least outside the bedroom.

I'm 28, by the way.

I have a question of my own. Those pyl that moved on to become PYL, did you have troubles asserting your will outside of your relationship, or bed, too?

 

[NomadLady]

If I'm not in control, I'm not aroused. And power is an incredible aphrodisiac.

For me, it's just that simple. This is definitely not something I grew into, or up to. It's just the way I'm wired.

I have to agree to this statement as well. Having been in vanilla relationships were someone wanted to "try" to Dom me has just never worked to the point I felt that "click". Not sure if it has been just the type men that I've met or what but it's generally been an either/or with my past experience and I MUCH prefer the men that are wired that way....

 

[Soumis]

It's not entirely true that, as a pyl, you don't need as many skills/as much experience, it just takes an entirely different set of skills to provide the PYL with a quality scene/service.

pyl is not lesser, or necessarily 'younger'/'newer', it's just different.

I disagree with this. A pyl is not just someone who lays there and gets beat upon. I've never looked at being a pyl as a passive position. A pyl needs to be well informed to protect themselves both physically and mentally.

Also many pyls that I know provide the majority of props. Especially insertables.

I'm not trying to discount the pyl position, it's one I'm quite fond of. I just think that a pyl doesn't have the same position in terms of directing a scene or safety. Yes, a pyl should be mature and responsible in their decisions, but in the end they are not the ones inflicting bruises. Personally, I think it's easier to learn how x,y,z works by having it done to you, but that's just me.

You have a point about insertables; I don't use them frequently enough for them to have crossed my mind. In the local groups I notice that pyls might provide restraints or clamps or vibes, but most impact/edge play props are provided by the PYL, but that is my own personal experience. A pyl might have a few favorites, but it's more often the PYLs dragging suitcases around.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

I third what JMohgen said about if I aint in control, I aint getting aroused... thats how it is.

The idea of being a pyl does nothing for me but make me laugh.. not interested.

 

[Netzach]

I'm on the 37 side of 36, and I've definitely become more settled into the top end of things, but I started with a very investigative 50/50 mindset and the suspicion that I'd wind up on top but wanting to see how the tea leaves would read after drinking the tea for a bit not just dumping out the cup and moving them around on the ground to make them say "U R DOM"

Life events are enough of a Bitch eventually that I don't really need to have my lack of control rubbed in my face anyway. My submissive forays with T are more "I adore this person and want to be fully present with him" not "wow he controls me, and it's unpredictable thus hot."

I had immense fun for the most part and recommend any young person who wants my advice to consider this approach and try prior to rejection rather than rejecting prior to trying.

I have a question of my own. Those pyl that moved on to become PYL, did you have troubles asserting your will outside of your relationship, or bed, too?

In certain ways YES, in certain ways obviously I have no problems with asserting anything.

I think I was just a very shaky 23 but pretty aroused by things that indicated I'm a Domme. I just had the self-awareness to figure out I could learn things and grow being not-a-domme also.

I've gotten aroused doing a vast array of things that I never exactly sat around masturbating to and dying to try, in fact some things that made me laugh on paper and some things that made me laugh at myself while doing them. And this goes for being in control as well as not.

This is a relationship arc I see with women and gay male bottoms a lot more often than any other permutations - because I think if you're a girl or a lifelong sorta twink you really have a relationship to personal power that is pretty much effed in ways that butch dudes don't. Power is a coming to power heroic journey whereas sexual power for het men is kind of expected out of the box. The personal sexual power quest among gay guys is well articulated in the film shortbus, I think.

 

[graceanne]

I'm sure the second anyone jumped or squealed or yelled I'd be all "Oh gosh I'm sooooo sorry!!!"

Yeah, me too.

*smack* Ow!

Are you okay?

Yes.

*smack* Ow!

Are you sure? Maybe I'm hitting too hard.

Why are you screaming? Am I annoying you? STOP BANGING YOUR HEAD ON THE WALL!

I disagree with this. A pyl is not just someone who lays there and gets beat upon. I've never looked at being a pyl as a passive position. A pyl needs to be well informed to protect themselves both physically and mentally.

Also many pyls that I know provide the majority of props. Especially insertables.

Exactly. I'd like to point out that some of the most informed people on this board are pyl's. Cutie Mouse comes to mind. I'm actually more informed than K, cause when he's interested in something he has me do the research. pyl's should take as much responsibility for safety as their PYL.

If I'm not in control, I'm not aroused. And power is an incredible aphrodisiac.

For me, it's just that simple. This is definitely not something I grew into, or up to. It's just the way I'm wired.

Exactly. And if I'm in control, I'm not aroused. And bored. It's how I'm wired.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I third what JMohgen said about if I aint in control, I aint getting aroused... thats how it is.

The idea of being a pyl does nothing for me but make me laugh.. not interested.

Again, arousal is not the point of an apprenticeship. Learning stuff for later is.

Don't any of you think to the future? About how she's gonna love you when she feels this new trick you're learning?

This is a relationship arc I see with women and gay male bottoms a lot more often than any other permutations - because I think if you're a girl or a lifelong sorta twink you really have a relationship to personal power that is pretty much effed in ways that butch dudes don't. Power is a coming to power heroic journey whereas sexual power for het men is kind of expected out of the box. The personal sexual power quest among gay guys is well articulated in the film shortbus, I think.

Quoted for motherfucking truth.

Except I would say "assumed" in place of "expected."

 

[where]

With a fond nod to a very dear friend, my serious contribution to the thread is this.

heh, BDSM queer theory.

I would love to know people's ages (in a general way) along with their opinions, I want to see if the opinions tend to change with age. I know mine did!

I apologise for the sloppy sloppy opening post. We don't call it "power exchange" for no reason, of course, and I did make it sound as if a pyl has none. What i was thinking of was that a pyl hands their power over to a PYL, and that some people might become comfortable holding their own power. And that's a bit like" growing up" in certain instances.

NomadLady was saying, in that other thread that, as sub(women) get older, they may find that the Doms are bypassing them in favor of the young pretty things. This is true in the vanilla world, as well, as my hetero and over-50 sister can attest.

And a certain someone chimed in with one of his typically shitty opinion pieces...

My solution is to bypass the need for men. They don't want you? You don't need them. Sadly most women can't seem to make the jump to lesbianism. So that's out.

BUT, in BDSM, there is another route. Older women seem to be very much in the forefront as Dommes.

Annnd... i don't think this post is any more coherent than the first one!

I'm 45 and started getting really interested in aspects of bdsm about 4 years ago. I don't really feel I can identify as anything. I hate labels but I suppose I am sexually submissive. I really don't think I could switch unless it's with another woman. And I'd willingly make the jump (back) to lesbianism if I could find the right woman, but currently it's mostly men who do it for me. The one woman who was really lighting my fires has now settled for a 6'4 dominant male artist. I blame her ex for becoming a man and therefore making her straight instead of being a lesbian still.

as to being abandoned sexually once you hit 40+, welllllll, I get hit on by 20-30 somethings. A lot of young guys (and quite a few girls) seem to like older women.

 

[callinectes2]

If "growing up" means one becomes a PYL, then there are a lot of PYLs that have set the grown-up bar very low.

I'm a female in my 40s. I am submissive and I really don't see that changing. I'm not remotely sexually interested in women or sub men. I have NO interest being in control. Even though I can't imagie that my PYL and I will break up, (he is my SO as well as my PYL) I'd still be submissive if we did. If men aren't interested in me due to my age then to hell with them.

 

[NomadLady]

heh, BDSM queer theory.

as to being abandoned sexually once you hit 40+, welllllll, I get hit on by 20-30 somethings. A lot of young guys (and quite a few girls) seem to like older women.

Yes they do Kybele....wow the 20-30 somethings have a thing for us older women....and the benefits are WONDERFUL!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BiBunny]

If "growing up" means one becomes a PYL, then there are a lot of PYLs that have set the grown-up bar very low.

LOLOLOLOLOL!

 

[Stella_Omega]

LOLOLOLOLOL!

Ditto!

But becoming something is so much different than assuming one is something, don't you think?

I think if Primalex for some strange reason learned to submit-- he would be growing.

 

[NomadLady]

Ditto!

But becoming something is so much different than assuming one is something, don't you think?

I think if Primalex for some strange reason learned to submit-- he would be growing.

I think you are 100% correct in the first AND second statements....

 

[where]

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[Shaetiano]

my beloved thinks i should 'dom' someone as a learning experience. I'd be hopeless at it. I seriously wouldn't know what to do if presented with a trussed up man or woman. other than be envious.

<<<<< still recalls the brilliant, early 30s intellectual i met this year. happy days!

Hmm, my former dom thought it would be interesting to see my 'try it out' once. Lets just say, I couldn't do it because I can receive better than I can give it comes to the pain. *giggles* But it was an experience I will never forget and at least I know, where I like to be, amongst everything. ^^

 

[where]

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