Green Energy

[sigh]

The president has boasted that domestic oil production has risen since he took office in 2009 but fails to mention that operations on private lands are responsible for the increase. The amount of petroleum extracted from federal lands - under White House jurisdiction - actually fell 13 percent in 2011, according to the Institute for Energy Research.

RF, I thought this was what conservatives preferred. More private, less federal.

 

[RightField]

The president has boasted that domestic oil production has risen since he took office in 2009 but fails to mention that operations on private lands are responsible for the increase. The amount of petroleum extracted from federal lands - under White House jurisdiction - actually fell 13 percent in 2011, according to the Institute for Energy Research.

RF, I thought this was what conservatives preferred. More private, less federal.

Thank you for being polite.

The problem is that large amounts of fairly easily extracted oil (less expensive to recover) and natual gas are under federal grounds. The oil off of Florida, for example, has been restricted by the Obama administration (no oil leases) and yet Cuba, just off our shores, has given a franchise to China to drill there. So, the Chinese are drilling oil out from under our continent and Obama won't let us get at it.

The private land recovery of oil is helping, but it's not enough. Given that our known reserves have grown dramatically with the new oil and natural gas recovery technologies, we should probably recover it and make ourselves less dependent on oil from the middle east and other unstable locales. The other factor is that the oil that we're "harvesting" from Wyoming and similar locals is very expensive to extract where the oil on some federal lands is generally less expensive.

Another factor is that the Federal government owns a large % of the nation's land. Did you know that the Federal government controls over 70% of the land in Utah, for example? The government owns more % of land in the western states than the eastern states, but it still owns very large tracts and lots of the oil is in western states. In either case whether on federal land or private, the drilling/extracting is done by private industry....you just have to find the places where oil/gas is at.

Don't get me wrong, I think we ought to pursue alternative energies for generating electricity, field use and transportation, but I think it's important to also maintain a bountiful supply of conventional energy sources also. I don't agree with spending on follies like Solyndra and the many other similar "grants" and "loans" put to Democrat party insiders that was just thinly veiled larceny, but I think DARPA-like legitimate investment is good and needed.

We need a strong supply of traditional domestic energy for many reasons. A large and dependable supply will keep prices down. There are lots of problems that you don't hear about in the press or from Energy Secretary Chu that comes from higher prices. I'll list a few problems that stem from higher energy costs:

• Poor people who barely get by with low energy costs get tipped into bankruptcy or worse (think of heating oil in the northeast) when the price goes up too high.
• Our products that use oil (manufacturing, some electricity and many services) become more expensive making them less competitive require larger % of our paychecks.
• We have to make choices such as maybe not signing a kid up for an extracuricular class because the cost of driving 20 miles each way is too expensive (opportunity cost).
• Even middle class people have to cut back on activities when gas becomes too expensive or supplies restricted.
• When energy prices rise, it is the most vulnerable amongst use who suffer the most (from higher oil, gas, services and products costs).
• When goods or services become more expensive and paychecks don't go up, our standards of living falls reducing disposable income (and that causes ripples throughout the economy as fewer people take vacations, buy less, donate less to good causes, etc - which leads to fewer jobs and more unemployment).
  

There is much more that we can do to keep energy costs low while still working to develop alternative energy sources. Low energy costs benefit almost everyone in our country.

 

[phrodeau]

The Chinese are not drilling oil out from under our continent. You are misinformed.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/are-chinese-drilling-oil-coast-florida-both-side-question

At least you didn't label it "slant drilling".

 

[RightField]

The Chinese are not drilling oil out from under our continent. You are misinformed.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/are-chinese-drilling-oil-coast-florida-both-side-question

At least you didn't label it "slant drilling".

China negotiated with the Cubans in 2005 and acquired drilling rights for oil and gas in the large pool of reserves that sit under the straights between Cuba and Florida. For argument's sake, the straights between Cuba and Florida are considered "our continent." There are large tracts of gas and oil there:

According to the U.S. Geological Survey, the offshore oilfield contains about five billion barrels of oil, similar to the supplies of Colombia or Ecuador. In addition, the U.S. Geological Survey estimates that there are around ten trillion cubic feet of natural gas.

So, they haven't started pulling oil out of that pool yet, (I'd guessed that they'd have started by now) but they can start any time they want. On the other hand, in the land of the free and the home of the brave (and rising oil prices) we can't touch our side of the pool.

The Democrats tell us that it's pointless to approve leases because it takes 10 years to start getting the oil out....so...maybe it will be a little longer before the Chinese start. Surely you're not making the argument that because it hasn't started yet, it never will? When will we be able to get our leases approved and get our plans underway?

 

[mercury14]

The Chinese are not drilling oil out from under our continent. You are misinformed.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/are-chinese-drilling-oil-coast-florida-both-side-question

At least you didn't label it "slant drilling".

If someone is misinformed by choice is that term still accurate?

Many people are misinformed about the domestic oil supply myth. Oil drilled in America (in the Gulf or elsewhere) isn't "America's". It belongs to the company that drilled it. Then it's sold on the global market, not to America. Oil drilled in North Dakota can easily end up hopping around the globe until it's consumed in Iran (which imports refined oil due to their limited refinery capacity). Likewise gasoline burned in a car in Texas may have originated in Russia.

There's no rational basis for Rightfield's comment that increased American drilling will lead to lower American prices. Even if we increase our drilling output by a large percentage, well that's still a tiny percentage of the global market. Such an increase in supply would make no measurable difference in prices we pay in America.

Even if increased production in America dropped prices, OPEC could just tweak their drilling back a little bit and raise prices right back up.

 

[Ishmael]

If someone is misinformed by choice is that term still accurate?

Many people are misinformed about the domestic oil supply myth. Oil drilled in America (in the Gulf or elsewhere) isn't "America's". It belongs to the company that drilled it. Then it's sold on the global market, not to America. Oil drilled in North Dakota can easily end up hopping around the globe until it's consumed in Iran (which imports refined oil due to their limited refinery capacity). Likewise gasoline burned in a car in Texas may have originated in Russia.

There's no rational basis for Rightfield's comment that increased American drilling will lead to lower American prices. Even if we increase our drilling output by a large percentage, well that's still a tiny percentage of the global market. Such an increase in supply would make no measurable difference in prices we pay in America.

Even if increased production in America dropped prices, OPEC could just tweak their drilling back a little bit and raise prices right back up.

There is no rational basis for yours.

If production has nothing to do with price why did the price fall on the rumor of strategic reserve releases? Why is price falling on the statement on the part of the Saudi's that they're going to increase production?

Ten years ago Bush attempted to open up that postage stamp area in ANWAR for oil production only to be castigate for, "It's only a drop in the bucket.", "It won't be online for 10 years." And here it is 10 years later and it's still not on-line and the proposed release from the strategic reserve is less than the expected production from ANWAR, and the price fell, until Barry said 'No'. And now the Saudi's are increasing production, and the price is falling.

Giving lie to the entire socialist hypothesis that supply has nothing to do with price. Giving lie to the entire hypothesis that the oil companies are 'price fixing.'

Showing to the world their utter ignorance of global markets. No trader in the world gives a rat's ass about these clowns conspiracy theories, not one. And there is no one in the world stopping these clowns from jumping on the bandwagon if they are true to their beliefs.

And just who do these idiots think are most effected by higher energy costs, the rich?

Fucking morons.

Ishmael

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

merc, let's say that it is true (due to factors such as inflation and taxation ignoring such factors as market forces and human action) that drilling here won't change the price one penny.



What about the jobs?

What about the balance of trade?

What about national security? Could we more effectively deal with an Iran knowing that it would not be an economic mutual suicide pact?

...

On a side note, where do you have the moral high ground to run around shouting liar?

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

The president has boasted that domestic oil production has risen since he took office in 2009 but fails to mention that operations on private lands are responsible for the increase. The amount of petroleum extracted from federal lands - under White House jurisdiction - actually fell 13 percent in 2011, according to the Institute for Energy Research.

RF, I thought this was what conservatives preferred. More private, less federal.

But this is not less Federal; it is exactly the same amount of Federal. Not one law or regulation has been changed or pulled back in the drilling of private lands or the wasteful crony capitalism of Federal interventions in the "green" economy.

 

[Byron In Exile]

Many people are misinformed about the domestic oil supply myth. Oil drilled in America (in the Gulf or elsewhere) isn't "America's". It belongs to the company that drilled it. Then it's sold on the global market, not to America. Oil drilled in North Dakota can easily end up hopping around the globe until it's consumed in Iran (which imports refined oil due to their limited refinery capacity). Likewise gasoline burned in a car in Texas may have originated in Russia.

There's no rational basis for Rightfield's comment that increased American drilling will lead to lower American prices. Even if we increase our drilling output by a large percentage, well that's still a tiny percentage of the global market. Such an increase in supply would make no measurable difference in prices we pay in America.

Even if increased production in America dropped prices, OPEC could just tweak their drilling back a little bit and raise prices right back up.

^ This is entirely correct.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

^ This is entirely correct.

First off, the biggest "oil companies" are actually countries.

Why would Saudi Arabia cut back its oil in order for its competitors to profit by pricing?

It's strategy would be better served to open the pumps since their oil is easier to get to and lower prices would deter the extraction of more expensive resources...

Furthermore, you would not see the tremendous price spikes that "tiny countries" (that are actually oil companies) like Venezuela and Iran can now have on the market and thus our nation.

 

[RightField]

And increasing the global supply of oil doesn't bring prices down?

Are you kidding me? Is that the basis of his argument? It's pretty weak and is just misdirection because increasing the global supply will bring down the price and if it's done by American companies with American jobs, all the better.

Plus, the added advantage is that if the world destablizes, then we have greater control of our own oil supplies. (During WW2 the Nazi's went after oil in the middle east and other locations and the Japanese went after oil in Indonesia).

 

[JohnnySavage]

And increasing the global supply of oil doesn't bring prices down?

Are you kidding me? Is that the basis of his argument? It's pretty weak and is just misdirection because increasing the global supply will bring down the price and if it's done by American companies with American jobs, all the better.

Plus, the added advantage is that if the world destablizes, then we have greater control of our own oil supplies. (During WW2 the Nazi's went after oil in the middle east and other locations and the Japanese went after oil in Indonesia).

Nationalization of Exxon, huh? I'd laugh, but knowing you are only a semi-extreme right-winger, I'll just shake my head ruefully instead.

 

[Byron In Exile]

Plus, the added advantage is that if the world destablizes, then we have greater control of our own oil supplies. (During WW2 the Nazi's went after oil in the middle east and other locations and the Japanese went after oil in Indonesia).

Um... you know this isn't the 1940's anymore, right?

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Nationalization of Exxon, huh? I'd laugh, but knowing you are only a semi-extreme right-winger, I'll just shake my head ruefully instead.

Too bad one child got left behind...

"We, the people..."



:rueful:

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Um... you know this isn't the 1940's anymore, right?

Closer to 1933...

 

[RightField]

Nationalization of Exxon, huh? I'd laugh, but knowing you are only a semi-extreme right-winger, I'll just shake my head ruefully instead.

If war broke out amongst the nations of the middle east (what if Israel tries to disable the Iranian nuclear efforts) and the supply of oil in the middle east was suddenly drastically cut back, we'd be better off if we had our own supplies to draw upon. Given the new extraction techniques, we have vastly increased our known reserves and can be self sufficient. Is that 'semi-extreme' or is the current democrat plan to issue everyone helicopter beanies with built-in solar panels (produced by democrat insiders with billion dollar government loans) more extreme ?

 

[JohnnySavage]

Too bad one child got left behind...

"We, the people..."



:rueful:

I'm not the one advocating nationalization of industries

 

[JohnnySavage]

If war broke out amongst the nations of the middle east (what if Israel tries to disable the Iranian nuclear efforts) and the supply of oil in the middle east was suddenly drastically cut back, we'd be better off if we had our own supplies to draw upon. Given the new extraction techniques, we have vastly increased our known reserves and can be self sufficient. Is that 'semi-extreme' or is the current democrat plan to issue everyone helicopter beanies with built-in solar panels (produced by democrat insiders with billion dollar government loans) more extreme ?

So at the first sign of trouble, you abandon your free market ideology? How high would oil prices have to go for you to nationalize the oil industry and set prices for domestic oil?

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

So at the first sign of trouble, you abandon your free market ideology? How high would oil prices have to go for you to nationalize the oil industry and set prices for domestic oil?

:rueful:


That's not what he's saying..., but, you already know that...

 

[JohnnySavage]

:rueful:


That's not what he's saying..., but, you already know that...

Sure it is.


we'd be better off if we had our own supplies to draw upon. Given the new extraction techniques, we have vastly increased our known reserves and can be self sufficient.


Who is "we"? Does it include existing leases to oil companies or oil under private lands? Self sufficient? You are going to tell the oil producers they can't sell their product on the open market? If china is paying $300 a barrel, why would a producer sell it domestically for less, unless they were told to by the government.

Oil is the world's ultimate free market system. It's 100% driven by supply and demand and American doesn't have enough supply to effect worldwide prices.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

We have met the enemy and he is us.
Pogo


We means the nation, not the government.

 

[RightField]

So at the first sign of trouble, you abandon your free market ideology? How high would oil prices have to go for you to nationalize the oil industry and set prices for domestic oil?

Free market is the priority and I wasn't talking about nationalizing. If oil was cut off in the open market (for any number of reasons) there would be sources if we were producing. As it stands now, we only produce a small fraction of our own needs and if there was a destablizing event we are at huge risk. That is all...showered and walking out the door now.

 

[RightField]

Um... you know this isn't the 1940's anymore, right?

Yes, but we're smart not to lose sight of the lessons of the past. Human nature hasn't changed radically since then...there is still lots of political intrigue and war and other disruptive events still take place from time to time and the Middle East is a center of stress these days.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Yes, but we're smart not to lose sight of the lessons of the past. Human nature hasn't changed radically since then...there is still lots of political intrigue and war and other disruptive events still take place from time to time and the Middle East is a center of stress these days.

That's what always gets me, the repeating generational assumption that new technology implies a new human behavioral paradigm but the things Aristotle wrote about us are as true now as it was then.

 

[phrodeau]

If war broke out amongst the nations of the middle east (what if Israel tries to disable the Iranian nuclear efforts) and the supply of oil in the middle east was suddenly drastically cut back, we'd be better off if we had our own supplies to draw upon. Given the new extraction techniques, we have vastly increased our known reserves and can be self sufficient. Is that 'semi-extreme' or is the current democrat plan to issue everyone helicopter beanies with built-in solar panels (produced by democrat insiders with billion dollar government loans) more extreme ?

That sounds like a very good reason to leave American oil in the ground - save it for a future war.