Grammarly... is it wrong?

[Bramblethorn]

As an example I just used the expression "the bruises stood out all the more due to her fair complexion"

The suggestion is to condense this to just "more"

Now is that more concise, yes? More grammatically correct? I assume so-again this is fiction-but to me in the flow of writing and reading back I think using the longer expression sounds better, more natural...

Am I right? That's subjective and comes down to style to me.

Either is correct, but there's a difference in meaning.

"More" just means more. "All the more" means "more on top of something that was already a lot".

In this case, "the bruises stood out more due to her fair complexion" could mean "the bruises were barely visible on her pale skin, and would've been completely invisible on somebody darker".

But the "all the more" version says that the bruises would have been pretty noticeable even on somebody darker, and her fair skin made them even more noticeable.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I wonder how long before they come up with an AI grammar program that can take into account the manner people speak, slang, context etc....

I think slang is easier than context. There are challenges with the vast number of slang varieties and the way they bleed into one another (is this mid-1980s Black NY slang, or late-1980s Hispanic Chicago slang?) but if you have enough writing examples from the variety you're trying to write in, that should be a solvable problem. Probably the biggest issue here is lack of demand - aside from fiction writers, most people using these tools are trying to avoid slang, and I'd guess there's more money in the business/academia market than in fiction.

Context is a hard problem. Even humans using their own language struggle with context.

 

[Bramblethorn]

About this '?' issue though, I stunned by how often I read:

"Are you going to the prom?" she said.

Uh. Asked? If you're going to add 'said' 'ask' etc. to a line of dialogue, at least make it agree with the spoken words.

There's nothing wrong with that sentence. Just because the quoted speech is a question doesn't mean you're not allowed to use "said" as the dialogue tag. "Asked" would be a more common choice, but there are plenty of examples of "said" out there:

“Are you quite sure, ma’am?—is not there a little mistake?” said Jane. “I certainly saw Mr. Darcy speaking to her.” - Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice

“Mr. Sherlock Holmes, I believe?” said she. - Arthur Conan Doyle, "A Scandal in Bohemia".

“What’s that about Cods, ma’am?” said I, with much politeness. - Herman Melville, "Moby Dick".

etc. etc.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

There's nothing wrong with that sentence. Just because the quoted speech is a question doesn't mean you're not allowed to use "said" as the dialogue tag. "Asked" would be a more common choice, but there are plenty of examples of "said" out there:

“Are you quite sure, ma’am?—is not there a little mistake?” said Jane. “I certainly saw Mr. Darcy speaking to her.” - Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice

“Mr. Sherlock Holmes, I believe?” said she. - Arthur Conan Doyle, "A Scandal in Bohemia".

“What’s that about Cods, ma’am?” said I, with much politeness. - Herman Melville, "Moby Dick".

etc. etc.

Yeah, but the word 'ask' wasn't invented until the late 19th century.

 

[KeithD]

www.dictionary.com › browse › ask
Origin of ask. First recorded before 900; Middle English asken, axen, Old English āscian, āxian; cognate with Old Frisian āskia, Old Saxon ēscon, Old High German eiscōn (German heischen ), Sanskrit icchati “ (he) seeks”.

 

[SimonDoom]

I just did a search of the full text of Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice, for the word "ask," and got an interesting result.

The word "ask" appears 87 times in the novel's text -- but never as a dialogue tag!

Never once does Austen have a sentence in this form:

"How are you, Miss Bennett?" Darcy asked.

Not one single time.

I thought that was interesting.

I started to do a similar search of Dickens's Great Expectations, which was written later in the 19th Century, and found examples of "ask" as a dialogue tag. So, plainly, 19th Century authors used it that way.

But I thought that was interesting about Austen.

 

[KeithD]

I enjoyed Zeb's joke for what it was. Sometimes, words have other purposes; sometimes, you need to look at other places than a dictionary, to grasp their meaning. Sometimes, you just need to be flexible and think.

I saw the joke. I also see a whole lot of discussion board readers who take misinformation as gospel.

 

[Buscando]

Step back from the machine

As an example I just used the expression "the bruises stood out all the more due to her fair complexion"

The suggestion is to condense this to just "more"

Now is that more concise, yes? More grammatically correct? I assume so-again this is fiction-but to me in the flow of writing and reading back I think using the longer expression sounds better, more natural...

Am I right? That's subjective and comes down to style to me.

You are correct, sir!

And here we come to the point where we must drop back a step in order to move forward.

I say this because, as one who has sat on both sides of the desk, my own advice to writers here and elsewhere, would be to - first and always - get yourself an editor whom you can work comfortably with. Forget the machine and the algorithms.

You'd be hard pressed to find a well-published writer who does not have an editor; at least one. Lovecraft's example above provides a fine illustration of one of the many reasons for doing so. All those programs and gimmicks may clean up your copy a bit, but they're often going to leave you looking like a fugitive from Bonehead English.

Those bonehead blunders, when encountered in erotica, are like buckets of cold water on the reader. They can run from being just horribly distracting to outright funny ... right when you were building to your hottest point.

An editor will not only catch those for you, but also all the smaller mistakes that make you look like you're not ready for prime time, and even better, often make suggestions for changes that will improve your work and make it look far more professional. And there are a whole lot of them here on the site who will be happy to work with you.

Let's eat grandma.
Let's eat, grandma.

Commas save lives.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Yeah, but the word 'ask' wasn't invented until the late 19th century.

Heh.

(I get that Zeb's joking, but FWIW, the reason I tend to give 19th-century examples in this sort of discussion is that being out of copyright makes it easy to find searchable versions on Gutenberg.)

 

[MillieDynamite]

I use grammarley, AutoCrit, and other aids in my writing. I used to use, (oh that sounds funny) I mean when it was working I used EditonMinion, but it's been down as long the cat that got hit by the car in January on the access road over yonder. Or have you some of you been able to use it?

 

[randomletters42]

Don't you dare pass out on me Mary.

The comma is a distraction to both me and the tool. Leaving it out, everything still makes perfect sense.

 

[KeithD]

Don't you dare pass out on me Mary.

The comma is a distraction to both me and the tool. Leaving it out, everything still makes perfect sense.

You would be wrong. It's direct address, it's basic grammar, and anyone working behind you on this will put a comma in. No one in the publishing business will question that it belongs there. Others will read it as your lack of knowledge about writing. It's not all about you.

 

[SimonDoom]

Don't you dare pass out on me Mary.

The comma is a distraction to both me and the tool. Leaving it out, everything still makes perfect sense.

KeithD is right. You're wrong, as a basic matter of grammar. Every experienced editor would disagree with you.

There's a logic to the syntax.

When you don't have a comma, then you suggest a linkage between "me," a pronoun, and "Mary." There is the suggestion that "me" and "Mary" are the same. Or, perhaps, that you are using "me" in a colloquial way when what you mean is "my." In which case you are saying "my Mary" -- a Mary that belongs to me.

You clear all this up by putting the comma in. There is no doubt whatsoever that the comma is correct as a matter of standard usage. The comma makes clear that "me" and "Mary" are not connected and that the speaker of the sentence is addressing Mary.

It's not a distraction at all. It's conventional English syntax.

The Chicago Manual of Style, 17th ed., section 6.53, addresses the issue. When a sentence expresses addressing a person, the person's name is set off by a comma. It gives these examples, among others:

It's time to go, Marta.

Ms. Jones, please come in.

It would be non-standard and confusing to eliminate the commas in these examples.

 

[jaF0]

I'm not interested in the formalities or mechanics. I go with what reads right to me at the moment.

But I'm not interested in eating Gandma.


And I still hate the lack of apostrophe in 'its'.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I'm not interested in the formalities or mechanics. I go with what reads right to me at the moment.

But I'm not interested in eating Gandma.


And I still hate the lack of apostrophe in 'its'.

You still need to follow the basic rules of grammar for the English language. And it doesn't read right, it reads wrong. Names are generally separated with a comma before or after statements in a sentence. When a name, nickname, or such is at the end of the sentence, it is always separated by a comma.

Such as,

"You need to take your studies seriously, boy."

 

[KeithD]

English-language grammar is flexible (hence the problem with computer grammar-check programs), but it's not a free-for-all. Reason: reader comprehension.

 

[jaF0]

You still need to follow the basic rules of grammar for the English language.

Ya' gonna make me? Huh? Well, is ya?

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51e49E3MJhL._SX300_.jpg

 

[KeithD]

Ya' gonna make me? Huh? Well, is ya?

Whatever Laurel lets pass, as long as you keep to this Web site. You try "it's all about me" on a larger stage, though, you'll find out how that works.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Ya' gonna make me? Huh? Well, is ya?

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51e49E3MJhL._SX300_.jpg

I don't make anyone, do anything, anymore. As part of a job, I use to take people places they didn't want to go, for abuses they shouldn't have done. But now, my income is from Ghostwriting, and outside of conversation, the grammar has to fall in acceptable standards. Inside "" marks, you have some leeway, until you change the meaning of what the person in the story intended to say. Inside the "" marks, you still need commas, periods, question marks even if you purposefully misuse words, coin words, or use improper language for effect. Comma's and periods are quite important for pace along with meaning.

 

[randomletters42]

Enjoying this random nerd-writer topic actually. But to reply... I still like it better without the comma, considering this is dialog and being said in a context, there is no chance the pronoun me would be interpreted as being Mary. Also the implied pause in speech seems quite unnatural unless the speaker actually forgot Mary's name briefly. Anyway the way I was taught to think about commas is: it's perfectly valid to throw commas almost anywhere in an English sentence, but unless doing so is required for the meaning (there's no disambiguity in this case) leave them out.

 

[KeithD]

Not going to argue with you further. You'll learn what you learn when it hits you between the eyes when you want something published and you're given the bottom line on what will make that happen--or not.

 

[SimonDoom]

Anyway the way I was taught to think about commas is: it's perfectly valid to throw commas almost anywhere in an English sentence, but unless doing so is required for the meaning (there's no disambiguity in this case) leave them out.

If that's what you were taught, you were taught wrong.

 

[Ezeerider]

Enjoying this random nerd-writer topic actually. But to reply... I still like it better without the comma, considering this is dialog and being said in a context, there is no chance the pronoun me would be interpreted as being Mary. Also the implied pause in speech seems quite unnatural unless the speaker actually forgot Mary's name briefly. Anyway the way I was taught to think about commas is: it's perfectly valid to throw commas almost anywhere in an English sentence, but unless doing so is required for the meaning (there's no disambiguity in this case) leave them out.

You can be a nerd. You can be a writer. You can easily be a nerd-writer (note the necessity for the hyphen there? There's a reason.), and each is fine.

However the discussion you've generated here is not one in which those pointing out your lack of knowledge can be judged as nerds for doing so. Your mistake there - again.

Perhaps we could employ a sort of metaphor here, in which you, believing you're ready for pro hoops based on your amazing 3-pointer average at the rec center, convince a coach to let you play in a pro game.

So out you go, with only a rudimentary knowledge of the rules of the game, some bad previous coaching, and your opinions on what you like about the rules and what you don't, and which you then intend to follow and which you won't.

The outcome - as we've all guessed by now, since it's immediately obvious, of course - is that you quickly look like an inept fool on the floor, and leave your team mates and the fans all with that "WTF??" look on their faces. "What's that guy doing out there? Send him back to the farm, he ain't hardly ready for the NBA."

Every game has its rules, and if you're not ready to adjust, then you're simply not ready to play. Knowing and having developed the skills to work within the rules is a huge and necessary part of moving up from the bush leagues to pro status. Some guys never figure this out. You can still find them on the sandlots and rec yards everywhere in the world. There ain't no free lunch. You've gotta put the work in.

Some good practice would be to write a letter to the misguided soul who gave you that truly bad advice about commas.

 

[KeithD]

Some good practice would be to write a letter to the misguided soul who gave you that truly bad advice about commas.

Invariably, I think, no one actually told them that. They are running on pure "I wanna" and making up support that isn't there.

 

[SimonDoom]

It's interesting to me to see the continual hostility that so many writers at Literotica have toward grammar.

If you want to be a surgeon, you have to spend a lot of time learning the craft and profession of surgery.

If you want to build chairs, you learn about carpentry and you learn the craft of building chairs. It makes a difference. Building a bad chair might make you feel good, but it won't feel good to the person who sits in it when it collapses.

Nobody questions that it's essential to spend time and effort learning the conventions of how to do these crafts.

But with writing, there's often this attitude, "I'm going to write, dammit, and you can't tell me there are any rules or that I have to follow them!"

Writing is no different from anything else. It's a craft, and you'll do better at it if you spend some time learning the craft and its conventions. That includes the basic conventions of grammar.