God is Not Great; How Religion Poisons Everything; Hitchens

Pure

Fiel a Verdad
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anyone seen it? comments? [google for dozens of reviews]


excerpts at



[faith]
http://www.slate.com/id/2165033/entry/2165035/


[muhammad]
http://www.slate.com/id/2165033/entry/2165038/


[mormonism]
http://www.slate.com/id/2165033/entry/2165039/

HERE IS THE FIRST EXCERPT

This week Slate is publishing three excerpts from Christopher Hitchens' new book, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything.

There are four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum of servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking.

I do not think it is arrogant of me to claim that I had already discovered these four objections (as well as noticed the more vulgar and obvious fact that religion is used by those in temporal charge to invest themselves with authority) before my boyish voice had broken. I am morally certain that millions of other people came to very similar conclusions in very much the same way, and I have since met such people in hundreds of places, and in dozens of different countries. Many of them never believed, and many of them abandoned faith after a difficult struggle. Some of them had blinding moments of un-conviction that were every bit as instantaneous, though perhaps less epileptic and apocalyptic (and later more rationally and more morally justified) than Saul of Tarsus on the Damascene road.

And here is the point, about myself and my co-thinkers. Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake. We do not hold our convictions dogmatically: the disagreement between Professor Stephen Jay Gould and Professor Richard Dawkins, concerning "punctuated evolution" and the unfilled gaps in post-Darwinian theory, is quite wide as well as quite deep, but we shall resolve it by evidence and reasoning and not by mutual excommunication.

(My own annoyance at Professor Dawkins and Daniel Dennett, for their cringe-making proposal that atheists should conceitedly nominate themselves to be called "brights," is a part of a continuous argument.) We are not immune to the lure of wonder and mystery and awe: we have music and art and literature, and find that the serious ethical dilemmas are better handled by Shakespeare and Tolstoy and Schiller and Dostoyevsky and George Eliot than in the mythical morality tales of the holy books.

Literature, not scripture, sustains the mind and—since there is no other metaphor—also the soul. We do not believe in heaven or hell, yet no statistic will ever find that without these blandishments and threats we commit more crimes of greed or violence than the faithful. (In fact, if a proper statistical inquiry could ever be made, I am sure the evidence would be the other way.)

We are reconciled to living only once, except through our children, for whom we are perfectly happy to notice that we must make way, and room. We speculate that it is at least possible that, once people accepted the fact of their short and struggling lives, they might behave better toward each other and not worse. We believe with certainty that an ethical life can be lived without religion. And we know for a fact that the corollary holds true—that religion has caused innumerable people not just to conduct themselves no better than others, but to award themselves permission to behave in ways that would make a brothel-keeper or an ethnic cleanser raise an eyebrow.

Most important of all, perhaps, we infidels do not need any machinery of reinforcement. We are those who Blaise Pascal took into account when he wrote to the one who says, "I am so made that I cannot believe."


There is no need for us to gather every day, or every seven days, or on any high and auspicious day, to proclaim our rectitude or to grovel and wallow in our unworthiness. We atheists do not require any priests, or any hierarchy above them, to police our doctrine. Sacrifices and ceremonies are abhorrent to us, as are relics and the worship of any images or objects (even including objects in the form of one of man's most useful innovations: the bound book). To us no spot on earth is or could be "holier" than another: to the ostentatious absurdity of the pilgrimage, or the plain horror of killing civilians in the name of some sacred wall or cave or shrine or rock, we can counterpose a leisurely or urgent walk from one side of the library or the gallery to another, or to lunch with an agreeable friend, in pursuit of truth or beauty.

Some of these excursions to the bookshelf or the lunch or the gallery will obviously, if they are serious, bring us into contact with belief and believers, from the great devotional painters and composers to the works of Augustine, Aquinas, Maimonides, and Newman. These mighty scholars may have written many evil things or many foolish things, and been laughably ignorant of the germ theory of disease or the place of the terrestrial globe in the solar system, let alone the universe, and this is the plain reason why there are no more of them today, and why there will be no more of them tomorrow.

Religion spoke its last intelligible or noble or inspiring words a long time ago: either that or it mutated into an admirable but nebulous humanism, as did, say, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a brave Lutheran pastor hanged by the Nazis for his refusal to collude with them. We shall have no more prophets or sages from the ancient quarter, which is why the devotions of today are only the echoing repetitions of yesterday, sometimes ratcheted up to screaming point so as to ward off the terrible emptiness.

While some religious apology is magnificent in its limited way—one might cite Pascal—and some of it is dreary and absurd—here one cannot avoid naming C. S. Lewis—both styles have something in common, namely the appalling load of strain that they have to bear. How much effort it takes to affirm the incredible! The Aztecs had to tear open a human chest cavity every day just to make sure that the sun would rise. Monotheists are supposed to pester their deity more times than that, perhaps, lest he be deaf.

How much vanity must be concealed—not too effectively at that—in order to pretend that one is the personal object of a divine plan? How much self-respect must be sacrificed in order that one may squirm continually in an awareness of one's own sin? How many needless assumptions must be made, and how much contortion is required, to receive every new insight of science and manipulate it so as to "fit" with the revealed words of ancient man-made deities? How many saints and miracles and councils and conclaves are required in order first to be able to establish a dogma and then—after infinite pain and loss and absurdity and cruelty—to be forced to rescind one of those dogmas? God did not create man in his own image.

Evidently, it was the other way about, which is the painless explanation for the profusion of gods and religions, and the fratricide both between and among faiths, that we see all about us and that has so retarded the development of civilization.

The mildest criticism of religion is also the most radical and the most devastating one. Religion is man-made. Even the men who made it cannot agree on what their prophets or redeemers or gurus actually said or did. Still less can they hope to tell us the "meaning" of later discoveries and developments which were, when they began, either obstructed by their religions or denounced by them. And yet—the believers still claim to know!

Not just to know, but to know everything. Not just to know that god exists, and that he created and supervised the whole enterprise, but also to know what "he" demands of us—from our diet to our observances to our sexual morality. In other words, in a vast and complicated discussion where we know more and more about less and less, yet can still hope for some enlightenment as we proceed, one faction—itself composed of mutually warring factions—has the sheer arrogance to tell us that we already have all the essential information we need. Such stupidity, combined with such pride, should be enough on its own to exclude "belief" from the debate. The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species. It may be a long farewell, but it has begun and, like all farewells, should not be protracted.

The argument with faith is the foundation and origin of all arguments, because it is the beginning—but not the end—of all arguments about philosophy, science, history, and human nature. It is also the beginning—but by no means the end—of all disputes about the good life and the just city. Religious faith is, precisely because we are still-evolving creatures, ineradicable. It will never die out, or at least not until we get over our fear of death, and of the dark, and of the unknown, and of each other. For this reason, I would not prohibit it even if I thought I could.

Very generous of me, you may say. But will the religious grant me the same indulgence? I ask because there is a real and serious difference between me and my religious friends, and the real and serious friends are sufficiently honest to admit it. I would be quite content to go to their children's bar mitzvahs, to marvel at their Gothic cathedrals, to "respect" their belief that the Koran was dictated, though exclusively in Arabic, to an illiterate merchant, or to interest myself in Wicca and Hindu and Jain consolations.

And as it happens, I will continue to do this without insisting on the polite reciprocal condition—which is that they in turn leave me alone. But this, religion is ultimately incapable of doing. As I write these words, and as you read them, people of faith are in their different ways planning your and my destruction, and the destruction of all the hard-won human attainments that I have touched upon. Religion poisons everything.








review by Dennett at

http://www.boston.com/ae/books/articles/2007/05/13/unbelievable/

Christian review at

http://insightscoop.typepad.com/2004/2007/05/so_mr_hitchens_.html
 
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Only saw the author's tête-à-tête with Jon Stewart. I didn't take it seriously - I'm a convicted Catholic Agnostic - but thought the idea of reducing every religion to "fear of the dark, fear of death, and hate of the vagina" amusing.
 
Lauren Hynde said:
Only saw the author's tête-à-tête with Jon Stewart. I didn't take it seriously - I'm a convicted Catholic Agnostic - but thought the idea of reducing every religion to "fear of the dark, fear of death, and hate of the vagina" amusing.

Didn't Freud do that first?

;)
 
Everyone has a right to his or her opinions. I saw two long interviews with him and he definitely did his homework (on all the faiths). The thing that came across to me is that he had an agenda, then set out to prove it. I'd prefer a more open view that came to that conclusion, but it doesn't bother me one way or the other. His criticisms of all the religious texts had good foundations and he kept a level head during his discussions. I've seen him before and he does very good interviews. I think he gives good food for thought.
 
Lauren Hynde said:
I don't think that Jon Stewart was hosting the Daily Show back then. :p

No, it was that other guy then. Craig Kilborn. :D
 
Heard about it.

My major objection to his thesis can be summed up in the old aphorism, "It's a poor workman who blames his tools."

And that's all religion is, a tool. Mostly a perceptual tool that people use to order the world they observe. It also is a useful method for propagating ethics, morals and social norms

However tools can only be used at the direction of their users. I can dig a ditch or plant a garden with a shovel. I can also kill another person with it. In neither case is it the shovel's fault. It's mine.

Same with religion. People can use it to do wonderful things. Or the most horrible things. It's not religion's fault. It's ours.
 
Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennet, Sam Harris and others seem to be whipping up a new kind of Militant Atheism, largely in reaction to the religious fundamentalism that seems so widespread in both the West and the Middle East. There was a review of Hitchen's book in the New Yorker recently, and they point out that a lot of the figures he cites to suggest that the US is a nation of religious fanatics are wildly exaggerated in order to create a problem to attack. We may believe in God, but our religious beliefs are terribly muzzy and indistinct. More people belive in astrology and/or UFO's than believe in God, and of all Christians only 15% know who delivered the Sermon On the Mount. For most of us, religion is something private and personal and not something we want to debate with Mr. Hitchens.

It's hard to disagree with the Militant Atheists over issues like scriptural literalism and the damage they do to education, but when they start dissing the entire religious impulse and aesthetic they go too far. Harris especially take an almost embarrassingly simplistic view of the evils of religion, suggesting that all the problems occurring in the Middle East are due entirely to the Muslim faith, as if history and economics had nothing to do with it whatsoever. That's just nonsense. And to think that a world without religion would necessarily be a happier and more peaceful world is probably nonsense too, in my opinion. We'd be just as happy killing each other over favorite colors or types of music or sports teams or which end of a soft-boiled egg to open.

I've been reading another book by Dennet recently. It's called "Consciousness Explained" and purports to do just that: to show how our very idea of ourselves as something special—what religion calls our "soul"—is nothing but a by-product of the information-processing functions of our brains. I'm not convinced yet, but to Dennet's mind he's solved the problem, and in his explanation there's nothing special or unique about our egos or selves - our souls. The ethical implications of this don't seem to phase him though, since he takes it on faith that human life and consciousness are priceless though he can't really say why. He doesn't dare come out and admit that he takes that as a matter of faith, but that's what it comes down to. If that's not a kind of religion - believing in the divinity of human consciousness - then I don't know what is.

The alternative is to admit that nothing matters at all.
 
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I love Hitchens, and can't wait to read the excerpts.

To be fair to Harris, he respects the contemplative traditions of the East because they are somewhat empirical, and he does not disagree that human life has a spiritual component. Just that looking for it in iron-age invisible flying spaghetti monsters that come complete with absurd cosmologies that they insist you accept or burn in hellfire for eternity is looking in all the wrong places.
 
It's kind of a natural reaction, isn't it? Religious extremists are getting more and louder and agressive in their choice of rhethorics, so why wouldn't anti-religious extremists do the same?
 
Doc and Rob: spot on...

he's throwing the baby out with the bathwater...

"God" (or whatever you want to call the divine, the thing that people look to greater than the self) is not "Religion."
 
Whatever the faults of the Hitchen's argument (and those of his fellow, militant atheists), I have to say I'm glad these militant atheists are coming out of the closet. My hope is that the appearence of such atheists and the fear of atheism becoming a new fad will make militant religious folk re-think their stragedy. It may make them realize that pushing too hard only gets someone pushing back--and that if they really want to make headway, they've got to ease off and back off.

That's probably false hope on my part, but hey, I can dream :rolleyes:
 
3113 said:
Whatever the faults of the Hitchen's argument (and those of his fellow, militant atheists), I have to say I'm glad these militant atheists are coming out of the closet. My hope is that the appearence of such atheists and the fear of atheism becoming a new fad will make militant religious folk re-think their stragedy. It may make them realize that pushing too hard only gets someone pushing back--and that if they really want to make headway, they've got to ease off and back off.

That's probably false hope on my part, but hey, I can dream :rolleyes:

Compromise with EVIL! Never! ;)
 
a few notes:

i posted the first excerpt from Hitchens; i added it to the first posting of this thread. wow, isn't he a fine writer? while he often covers old ground, he's a gread read. several reviewers have noted the attraction more than to Dawkins.

as far as the arguments go, it seems that H is focussing on "faith", to which he gives a meaning popular among Xtians, something like believing fully in some matter of fact, when one has no evidence supporting it. IOW, the person *generally* agrees that the types of claims require evidence, but isn't deterred by the lack of evidence in the present case. For example, the claim that Jesus lived from about 5 BCE to 30 CE, is a factual one; but the Xtian attaches a high degree of belief to this, despite the weakness of the evidence.

not to draw this out: most religions of the world are not "faiths" in the sense above, Hitchens' sense.
 
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S-Des said:
Everyone has a right to his or her opinions. I saw two long interviews with him and he definitely did his homework (on all the faiths). The thing that came across to me is that he had an agenda, then set out to prove it. I'd prefer a more open view that came to that conclusion, but it doesn't bother me one way or the other. His criticisms of all the religious texts had good foundations and he kept a level head during his discussions. I've seen him before and he does very good interviews. I think he gives good food for thought.
Des, it's probable that his open agenda happened before you or I heard about him. Now he's come to his conclusions. That's not the same thing as "starting with an agenda."

Actually, he seems to be one of the least extreme public atheists that I've heard of, and I'd like for there to be more like him. I tend to agree with Dawkins et al, and of course religious folk see that kind of negation as being extreme and unkind.
Of course those of us who would like to see less unthinking devotion to religion worry about the effects of religious beliefs on our world and our planet. I think that this desire to not merely wait for, but to actually bring about Armageddon, is a tad unkind, myself. And it's an unkindness that's going to last for tens of thousands of years if successful. The only planet I have... treated like a junkyard.

Someone mentioned that religion is a "tool" like a shovel. If so, it's a "tool" that has been misused to a terrifying extant for thousands of years. I won't start any diatribes on the particulars, only to say that the "tool" idea is only workable if all of society thinks that way-- and it doesn't. Society sees religion as the Purpose, and humans as the tools used to achieve that Purpose. And when so many religions include the ending of this world in that purpose, it seems to me to be extreme and unkind of you believer- types to negate my desire to remove that tool from misuse.

As far as "Throwing the baby out with the bathwater" goes, an atheist believes in NO gods. This means that any higher Purpose mankind has, will have to be manufactured by mankind. That's an inconceivable thought to most believers, who seem to feel that purpose must come from outside, or it won't be purposeful. As a lifelong atheist I can assure you that it's perfectly possible to achieve a sense of purpose, keep optimism and faith alive, express charity and empathy, and be very happy-- without the crutch of a big skydaddy who will reward one with a Better Life Elsewhere. I want to see a Better Life right here.

(helluva post to write so early in my morning!)
 
As far as "Throwing the baby out with the bathwater" goes, an atheist believes in NO gods. This means that any higher Purpose mankind has, will have to be manufactured by mankind. That's an inconceivable thought to most believers, who seem to feel that purpose must come from outside, or it won't be purposeful.

There are "believers" who understand there is no difference and no separation between the inside and the outside... no difference between mankind and "god"...

As a lifelong atheist I can assure you that it's perfectly possible to achieve a sense of purpose, keep optimism and faith alive, express charity and empathy, and be very happy-- without the crutch of a big skydaddy who will reward one with a Better Life Elsewhere. I want to see a Better Life right here.

There are religions that believe the better life IS right here... who don't believe in a literal heaven or hell...

and not to quibble... but athiesm itself is a belief... in non-belief... :D
 
SelenaKittyn said:
and not to quibble... but athiesm itself is a belief... in non-belief... :D
Um...No...

Belief is something that requires no evidence. Like "I believe there is a higher power watching over us." Evidence? None--you just believe it. Atheism (of Hitchen's kind at least) uses evidence to conclude that they should subscribe to non-belief ("I see no evidence of a higher power watching over us, so I conclude that there is none. Show me otherwise, and I will alter my conclusion.")

Hence, it's not the same as belief.
 
Here's what I think...

Why do you pray God? No, I'll ask you "Why do you pray"? You pray 'coz you feel the need to speak to someone or something that your mind says that you'll get help from. So you spend time, on your knees or standing up (or however you pray), talking to this invisible force. You pour your heart out and when you're done, you get the feeling of being comforted.

What really happens is that you feel relaxed after drying your mind off hate, helpnesses, desperation and the need for a divine listener. When you get some sort of help from a person you know or don't know, it isn't because of some divine intervention. You inadvertantly sought it.

You worked towards it and you found help. You can't explain how you worked towards getting help but it just happens, time and time again. Then you're convinced that there's actually a divine force, helping you.

Everything's in "you". God is only an invisible force that you believe that's looking out for you. Once you're convinced that there's someone out there who cares for you, you don't fear anything. That's the beauty of being confident.

The mind is like a parachute. It works only when it's open.
 
SelenaKittyn said:
There are "believers" who understand there is no difference and no separation between the inside and the outside... no difference between mankind and "god"...
not enough of those believers. In fact, those believers are considered heretic by the Christian majority.
There are religions that believe the better life IS right here... who don't believe in a literal heaven or hell...
yes, but they aren't the ones that are shaping our world right now.
and not to quibble... but athiesm itself is a belief... in non-belief... :D
The commonly accepted definition of Religion; A code of living that derives its authority from being handed to the human race by a Higher Being, namely a god.

The commonly accepted definition of a god; a senteint and self-aware being that exists outside of the laws of nature and has generative powers up to and including the power of primary creation- as in, the creation of the entire cosmos.

Atheism is a hypothesis, if you will, that these two things are invalid.
Atheism thus far is pretty well confirmed by the evidence we have gathered. Mankind has spent six thousand years looking for that SuperNatural, Self-Aware, Primary Creator Of Everything, and hasn't come up with a shred of concrete evidence. We grasp at pleasant coincidences and call them "Miracles" and substitute them for facts. The more we see of the Cosmos, the fewer places there are for a God to hide. I would not quibble with actual proof of a god, but I can't imagine what that proof would be.

I am well aware of all of the alternate definitions for the word "God" such as the Cosmic Oneness, a Higher Power, Nature-- but all of those things already have names. Any code of values for living that do not include Word From On High, are well-defined as philosophies. For the sake of the continued health of this planet, it would be most helpful if we humans could begin to separate our codes of living from the webs of belief.
 
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Stella_Omega said:
not enough of those believers. In fact, those believers are considered heretic by the Christian majority. yes, but they aren't the ones that are shaping our world right now.

Yes... true enough...

but dismissing ALL religion throws the baby out with the bathwater... again...


The more we see of the Cosmos, the fewer places there are for a God to hide.


There's no difference there... god isn't hiding... never was... god IS the cosmos... the biggest and smallest parts of it...

you can call it what you like. It is what it is. In the end, it's just semantics.
 
nope, stella,

The commonly accepted definition of Religion; A code of living that derives its authority from being handed to the human race by a Higher Being, namely a god.

The commonly accepted definition of a god; a senteint and self-aware being that exists outside of the laws of nature and has generative powers up to and including the power of primary creation- as in, the creation of the entire cosmos.

Atheism is a hypothesis, if you will, that these two things are invalid


Actually, atheism, or at least the declaration that the issue [existence of God] is irrelevant, is in fact a position of several Buddhist groups.
 
Believers and atheists are two sides of the same coin. One side believes there is a God, Allah to Zeus, take your pick. The other says there is not. Both cherry pick facts to support their supposition. Neither can prove it, in a scientific sense. They take it on faith.

That's why I call myself an agnostic. I can't take things on faith.

Stella? Every tool ever created by mankind has been misused. The problem is when people mistake ethics for tool use. I believe that religion might be more prone to this as it so often presents itself as an ethical system. And sometimes there is a crossover.

But one shouldn't blame a tool for its misuse. The blame always falls on the users of the tool.
 
SelenaKittyn said:
Yes... true enough...

but dismissing ALL religion throws the baby out with the bathwater... again...
It seems to me that the baby is so long drowned in the bathwater that there's not much profit in trying to save it at this time. Maybe later, when some of the bathwater has been drained from the tub, it might be possible to resuscitate it.

There's no difference there... god isn't hiding... never was... god IS the cosmos... the biggest and smallest parts of it...

you can call it what you like. It is what it is. In the end, it's just semantics.
There you go- I was just now mentioning how believers are currently talking about redefining the word "god".

The cosmos is the cosmos. It's our environment, in the largest possible sense. It's not a big skydaddy. It does not confer moral rectitude upon deserving personages, and it does not promise us a better life after this one, and it does not defend the Righteous. It doesn't answer prayers and it doesn't make miracles to convince the doubtful. The cosmos doesn't need burnt offerings, and, if the entire human race should suddenly self-destruct, and even if we take our planet with us-- hell if we managed somehow to wipe out our entire galaxy-- the cosmic mechanism won't alter an iota. Water is not the God of Fishes.
 
Pure said:
The commonly accepted definition of Religion; A code of living that derives its authority from being handed to the human race by a Higher Being, namely a god.

The commonly accepted definition of a god; a senteint and self-aware being that exists outside of the laws of nature and has generative powers up to and including the power of primary creation- as in, the creation of the entire cosmos.

Atheism is a hypothesis, if you will, that these two things are invalid


Actually, atheism, or at least the declaration that the issue [existence of God] is irrelevant, is in fact a position of several Buddhist groups.
Yes, I know that some Buddhist sects can be considered atheistic religions. :rolleyes: Every atheist gets told about them! They aren't very popular though.

Are there any other religions that include the lack of a god?
 
Stella_Omega said:
Are there any other religions that include the lack of a god?

The only one I know of is fictional.

Its Holy Book is called The Book of Universal Truths and Other Humourous Anecdotes.

Book 9 states "To be angered by evil is to partake of it, stupid."

Matthewson's 23rd Edict states, "The amount of intelligent life in the universe is approximately equal to any one human's casual expectoration in any two of Terra's oceans."

The 17th Psalm of Indifferent Contentment states, "Man is without a doubt the most conceited race in the universe. Who else believes God has nothing better to do but sit around and help him out of tight spots?"

OK, they mention God. But they're not sure they believe in Her. ;)
 
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