Girl or Woman? Man or Boy?

[3113]

Pure asked me a question in the "intercourse" poll thread and I thought I'd take it to the streets and see what others had to say on the subject--as it's an interesting question when it comes to discribing and creating a characters and how to describe them. First what I wrote in the poll:

From the Poll: "I want the point of view of a girl wearing a dildo and penetrating another woman."

"I want the point of view of a girl being penetrated by a man."

"I want the point of view of a girl being penetrated by a girl wearing a dildo"

interesting that you prefer to talk about a 'girl' being penetrated by a 'man'. 'girl' is your preferred term, throughout, except in the first line quoted. 'girl penetrating ... woman'; contrast 'girl being penetrated by a girl'

While I won't deny this says something about me, I have to defend myself here and say that it's as telling about the English language and American culture as it is about me. Men can call women "Girls" and there's nothing derogatory in it. In fact, it's often considered very flattering--a girl being young, sexy, fun, etc. A girl can make love to a man.

This as compared to a woman calling a man a "boy"--that's not flattering. A woman may call her man a "boy" all in fun and fondness ("He's such a boy!" or "He's gone off to play with the boys!") but no man wants to be thought of as a "boy" (he's going to say, "I'm off for a night with the guys!" not with "the boys"). A man calling another man "boy!" is an insult. Boys do not make love to women.

But women, even in their 90's, have no problem saying, "I'm off to have lunch with the girls!" or "I'm with you, girlfriend!" And our culture has no problem with giving girls as much an aura of romance and beauty as innocence and youth. A man in a movie reminisces about the "girl he saw one day on the docks with the sun in her hair...." A woman, in the same position, will talk about a "cute guy" or a "sexy man" she saw. An old man looks fondly across the room at his wife of 50 years and says, "That's my girl!" An old woman looks back across the room at her husband and says, "That's my man!"

Compared to "girl" the word "Woman" often sounds rather dull and factual. Part of this is due to Western culture which celebrates females in their youth but not as they get older. Clothing is youth oriented--what's fashionable among teens and college age girls influences all women's fashion. So if college girls are wearing mini-skirts, then mini-skirts will be found and displayed in every section of the women's department. A wise woman will know when she's too old for such fashion and wear something more suitable for her age. But she has to accept that clothing flattering for a "woman" is usually not as fashionable or as attention-getting as "girlish" clothing.

How can it be when girlish fashion often makes use of the "girl's" ability to show off her flat tummy, go bra-less or wear short-shorts?

Contrariwise, the man with gray hair is distinguished and sexy and may get as many attentive looks as the younger man. Johnny Depp is certainly getting more attention than Orlando Bloom. And fashion has been much kinder to men. A guy can look good in a suit from age 18 to 100. He doesn't feel as much pressure to wear something that makes him look "boyish."

Now this is NOT to say that there aren't men (and women) out there who want Women with a capital "W." Confident, mature, sexy, independent and not at all "girly." And it's certainly not to say that Women cannot be beautiful and desirable. Sophia Loren has always been a most desirable WOMAN. But I think I can lay the blame for my choice in the poll of "girl" over "woman" on the English language and the use of the word "girl" in American culture. A husband who tells his wife that she's still a "girl" flatters her. A wife who tells her husband that he is still a "boy" doesn't flatter him.

That, at least, is my experience with the words. Perhaps I'm wrong? Other opinions and observations welcome.

 

[rgraham666]

I'm one of those men who very much prefers women.

And woman is not restricted to a certain age. I've know very young woman and very old girls.

On thinking about it, what separates the girls from the women is a sense of themselves, an independence both of thought and in material things.

A woman can stand on her own. A girl, in my opinion, cannot.

Which is why I prefer women. If a woman allows me in her life it's because she wants me, not because she needs me.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

My mom once noted that when she and her female freinds were in college they referred to themselves as "ladies" (there are few if any from that generation in this place), but later, when they were married women raising children, they were "the girls."

I enjoy using slightly anachronistic terms. You forgot to mention "gals."

 

[matriarch]

I'm most definitely a 'gal', when with a clutch of female friends having fun.

But I think of myself as a woman.

To my sons, I'm just 'mum', or 'mother', when they are annoyed with me or making a point.

 

[CharleyH]

While I won't deny this says something about me, I have to defend myself here and say that it's as telling about the English language and American culture as it is about me. Men can call women "Girls" and there's nothing derogatory in it. In fact, it's often considered very flattering--a girl being young, sexy, fun, etc. A girl can make love to a man.

I agree - and would go so far as to push that Western culture's use of gendered words always benefits the power of the male and never the female. Almost all debasing sexual words in North America, as an example, make women lesser than men - ie whore vs. gigalo. They are the same thing, but there is power in one over the other.

Girl is a word used sexually for some of the very reasons you give. Women do not sexualize 'boy' as men sexualize 'girl'. And this is a great discussion 3113.

 

[Boota]

Boys do not make love to women.

I did back when I was a boy. She thought she was robbing the cradle with an eighteen year old. Never told her I was only fourteen. She was 39 or 40.

I know a few women who get offended at being called girls. They say it is demeaning to them as full grown women. I don't care. These little cupcakes need to lighten the fuck up and just be girls every once in a while. They wouldn't look so bitter.

I don't care if someone calls me a boy, even as an attempted insult. I'm 6'2", 260 pounds, and strong as an ox. I take care of the people I love and I handle my own responsibilities. I'm willing to lose for the right reasons and honor comes before all else. I know what a man is. I'm not going to bicker over terms.

 

[R. Richard]

As an adult man, I once dated a 15-year-old girl. The date was a very public walk through a beach street fair and was the result of a bitch dumping me with about an hour before the socially very important steet fair. The girl was so hot looking that the other guys in the beach area where I lived would have tried anything to pick her up. [They didn't because the word on the steet was that trying to pick up R. Richard's girl would have severe negative effects on the pickor's health.] The urge to pick up the girl would have faded swiftly if the guys had been able to talk to her. However, the image of the girl was such that I was quickly able to reestablish myself with the women in the beach area. What the average guy wants is the image of a girl with the mind and social presence of a woman.

From my personal experience, what a woman wants is a man who can take care of her. That is, a man who can take care of her without the constant need to worry that the man might kill/severly injure the boys who step out of line. No boys need apply.

JMHO.

 

[S-Des]

I thought you made an interesting point with "girl" referring to something youthful and sexy. I would never date a "girl" (although I've ogled a lot of 18-24 year-olds that I would definitely refer to in that way), I'm only interested in a woman. It's a touchy subject because just like the Ma'am thread, I'm sure some women would take offense to the characterization.

In the end, I think a "girl" can be mature at times and a "woman" can be immature. Neither excludes the other. I think parts of both are necessary to make an amazing person. It's hard to find one of them with just the right touch of both (but I'm looking, daily).

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

The differences are purely semantic when I use them. I use both, depending on whether the woman in question is cutting loose or being more serious at the time. Since both are valid mindsets, I mean neither term in a demeaning or insulting way.

 

[Stella_Omega]

... Women do not sexualize 'boy' as men sexualize 'girl'. ...)

I do- always did. I hear my Daughter doing the same thing too, and I don't think it came from me- at least, not conversationally. It's in her psychological makeup.

 

[CharleyH]

I do- always did. I hear my Daughter doing the same thing too, and I don't think it came from me- at least, not conversationally. It's in her psychological makeup.

I appreciate the individual, but was talking about a longer cultural tradition.

Enough Madonna videos will make any girl think a boy a toy. lol

Edit to add: or any boy think the same.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I appreciate the individual, but was talking about a longer cultural tradition.

Enough Madonna videos will make any girl think a boy a toy. lol

yeah, I know. But- cultural traditions are made from people- and if enough people say; "No, not the way I do it" then traditions change.


I never was a huge fan of Madonna... I mean, she's okay

 

[CharleyH]

yeah, I know. But- cultural traditions are made from people- and if enough people say; "No, not the way I do it" then traditions change.


I never was a huge fan of Madonna... I mean, she's okay

and yeah I know LOL - and I would love to debate the issue, I find it interesting and fascinating- and - quite frankly - I agree with you ... yet, there is always ... more.

 

[minsue]

But I think of myself as a woman.

And yet, you usually refer to me as your 'girl' *raises eyebrow*

 

[3113]

I did back when I was a boy. She thought she was robbing the cradle with an eighteen year old. Never told her I was only fourteen. She was 39 or 40.

Well, we will grant, Boota, that the broke the mold when they made you

 

[CharleyH]

And yet, you usually refer to me as your 'girl' *raises eyebrow*

LOL you are a female gosling, what else would one refer to you as?

I still think it a wonderful thread and discussion.

 

[minsue]

LOL you are a female gosling, what else would one refer to you as?

I still think it a wonderful thread and discussion.

I just find the distinction amusing - she's a 'woman' and I'm her 'girl'.

 

[CharleyH]

I just find the distinction amusing - she's a 'woman' and I'm her 'girl'.

 

[matriarch]

And yet, you usually refer to me as your 'girl' *raises eyebrow*

Oh no I don't.

I refer to you as my 'beautiful girl'.
But you're all woman.

 

[Pure]

3113, hi,

you pick up the phone. a man (boy) says, "we're doing a poll of girls in New York, as to the cars they buy..." does that bother you?

i agree about the 'youth' connotation, but that has some other dimensions. according to 'reliable sources', i've heard that if you call an escort agency, the madam says, 'how many girls do you want?'

i find the one term which can't be dispensed with, in English, is 'girl friend'. for all ages. i try 'woman friend' sometimes, in a fit of PC-ism, but it sounds awful.