Gender Perspectives: Submales -- Meek, Crushed, Emasculated

[VerbalAbuse]

There's a large body of literature focused on submissive males (thousands of stories on lit alone) -- it often emphasizes a humiliation narrative, where the male character is depicted as meek, crushed, or even emasculated, stripping him of any agency or dignity. The focus is on humiliation, not on the empowerment or triumph of the character.

In contrast, submissive female literature, with classics like Story of O and Emmanuelle, offer a different lens through which submission is explored. The female protagonists in those stories, while undergoing extreme forms of submission, still maintain a sense of agency or triumph within the context of their submission. O, for example, is driven by her desire to submit, yet exudes power in the very act of surrendering herself -- her triumph is in fully embracing and accepting her role, even if it’s a role that might seem degrading or humiliating on the surface. Emmanuelle is a slut, aspiring to be the ultimate slut -- yet winning bigly at each turn.

 

[Rob_Royale]

Good points and I'm looking forward to doing my first sub male story, though it will be more like your second example. I don't do humiliation. This young man will enjoy serving his mistress and she in turn happy to show her appreciation, showing him off to her friends and showing her affection. As loving as dom/sub can get.

 

[AG31]

There's a large body of literature focused on submissive males (thousands of stories on lit alone) -- it often emphasizes a humiliation narrative, where the male character is depicted as meek, crushed, or even emasculated, stripping him of any agency or dignity. The focus is on humiliation, not on the empowerment or triumph of the character.

In contrast, submissive female literature, with classics like Story of O and Emmanuelle, offer a different lens through which submission is explored. The female protagonists in those stories, while undergoing extreme forms of submission, still maintain a sense of agency or triumph within the context of their submission. O, for example, is driven by her desire to submit, yet exudes power in the very act of surrendering herself -- her triumph is in fully embracing and accepting her role, even if it’s a role that might seem degrading or humiliating on the surface. Emmanuelle is a slut, aspiring to be the ultimate slut -- yet winning bigly at each turn.

This is a phenomenon that interests me a lot. I've tried, in various ways, to articulate the difference between humiliation and submission. One quality that I've focused on is self acceptance. I haven't read a lot of stories where the MC is stripped of agency or dignity. I haven't read a lot because I don't like them. But I am focused on male MCs, so it works out to be that there just aren't that many Lit. stories that I like, illustrating your point exactly. Early on I added "with dignity" to my blurbs. I've since switched to "with self-acceptance." I've realized that self-acceptance is the core quality that attracts me, and that crosses the boundaries between erotica and other literature.

 

[AG31]

Good points and I'm looking forward to doing my first sub male story, though it will be more like your second example. I don't do humiliation. This young man will enjoy serving his mistress and she in turn happy to show her appreciation, showing him off to her friends and showing her affection. As loving as dom/sub can get.

I'd like to hear @VerbalAbuse's take on this. "Love" isn't part of what I look for in a story about submission. Even though O's lover declares his love for her repeatedly, it's clear it isn't the kind you're talking about.

 

[VerbalAbuse]

I'd like to hear @VerbalAbuse's take on this. "Love" isn't part of what I look for in a story about submission. Even though O's lover declares his love for her repeatedly, it's clear it isn't the kind you're talking about.

take on what? Rob saying he's writing a story? or that he doesn't do humiliation?

 

[VerbalAbuse]

This is a phenomenon that interests me a lot. I've tried, in various ways, to articulate the difference between humiliation and submission. One quality that I've focused on is self acceptance. I haven't read a lot of stories where the MC is stripped of agency or dignity. I haven't read a lot because I don't like them. But I am focused on male MCs, so it works out to be that there just aren't that many Lit. stories that I like, illustrating your point exactly. Early on I added "with dignity" to my blurbs. I've since switched to "with self-acceptance." I've realized that self-acceptance is the core quality that attracts me, and that crosses the boundaries between erotica and other literature.

You're stories go against the established norm. They're atypical. It's an undeniable quality.

 

[Rob_Royale]

I'd like to hear @VerbalAbuse's take on this. "Love" isn't part of what I look for in a story about submission. Even though O's lover declares his love for her repeatedly, it's clear it isn't the kind you're talking about.

The idea of him looking at her with complete adoration while he's massaging her feet appeals to me, as does her appreciative responce. "That's my good boy."

 

[AG31]

ou're stories go against the established norm. They're atypical. It's an undeniable quality.

Not news to me, and I'm pleased that you've taken the trouble to form an opinion. But could you elaborate? Can you explain how they go against the established norm? I've never satisfactorily explained it to myself.

 

[Cagivagurl]

There's a large body of literature focused on submissive males (thousands of stories on lit alone) -- it often emphasizes a humiliation narrative, where the male character is depicted as meek, crushed, or even emasculated, stripping him of any agency or dignity. The focus is on humiliation, not on the empowerment or triumph of the character.

In contrast, submissive female literature, with classics like Story of O and Emmanuelle, offer a different lens through which submission is explored. The female protagonists in those stories, while undergoing extreme forms of submission, still maintain a sense of agency or triumph within the context of their submission. O, for example, is driven by her desire to submit, yet exudes power in the very act of surrendering herself -- her triumph is in fully embracing and accepting her role, even if it’s a role that might seem degrading or humiliating on the surface. Emmanuelle is a slut, aspiring to be the ultimate slut -- yet winning bigly at each turn.

Because....

it's a mans world...

Females are coached from birth to be submissive good little housewives... Raise children, care for their husbands....

men are coached to be strong independent forceful superior...

Everything you see hear or read is designed to grow the stereotype. Women are programmed from birth to repeat the cycle from whence they came...
Walk behind your man.
Don't speak unless he gives you permission.
Do his bidding.
He is the king of his castle.
Your value depends on his.
Without a husband you are nothing. A spinster...
The world builds on those stereotypes We are forced to follow the rules.
In some countries, women are disfigured to stop them from straying. Their clitoris removed less they enjoy sex. For that is their value... Nothing. They deserve no pleasure.

So why is it so bad when a man is forced into what is an everyday part of being a woman???

Because it goes against the teachings... They become less than a woman... God forbid that happens...

Just my thoughts on the matter...

Women becoming sluts is not empowerment. It's a continuation of the male fantasy... It's not growth for women....
Growth for women is when they can stand on their own without the assistance of men...
When they realise they have value... They don't have to depend or rely on a male.... Then they are free...

Live and love as they wish without fear or condemnation...

Let the men stay home and do the fucking cleaning. Let them mind the children... Go forth and rule the world...

Cagivagurl

Break them and you are a feminist, a rebel

 

[Greyvision]

I think what you have noted is the typical male brain/ male author approach to male and female submission. I haven't looked into this in any great detail, but suspect female authors may have less emphasise on the humiliation approach when attempting to achieve male submission. Interesting subject though, and worth looking into a bit more. Are there any female authors on lit who like to cover this subject matter, is there a noticeable difference of approach?

 

[AwkwardlySet]

There's a large body of literature focused on submissive males (thousands of stories on lit alone) -- it often emphasizes a humiliation narrative, where the male character is depicted as meek, crushed, or even emasculated, stripping him of any agency or dignity. The focus is on humiliation, not on the empowerment or triumph of the character.

In contrast, submissive female literature, with classics like Story of O and Emmanuelle, offer a different lens through which submission is explored. The female protagonists in those stories, while undergoing extreme forms of submission, still maintain a sense of agency or triumph within the context of their submission. O, for example, is driven by her desire to submit, yet exudes power in the very act of surrendering herself -- her triumph is in fully embracing and accepting her role, even if it’s a role that might seem degrading or humiliating on the surface. Emmanuelle is a slut, aspiring to be the ultimate slut -- yet winning bigly at each turn.

I don't think that's the case.
It's true that many stories featuring a male-sub focus on humiliation, sissification, feminization, etc. But there are far more stories with a female sub. I understand how you got the impression that those stories are mostly about empowerment, since in the Lesbian category you will find plenty of stories where the submission also gives power to the sub. I wrote one such series as well. But you will also find a lot more fem-sub stories where the sub is humiliated and severely degraded in BDSM, Fetish, Non-Con category, and even LW. Far more men get off on female submission than on male submission.

I also doubt that it's a coincidence that a man being forcefully transformed into a woman through feminization and sissification is seen as such a sign of humiliation in those stories. Being feminized equals being subjugated and humiliated. Manliness is power, femininity is submission.

I hate the above-mentioned view so much but it is what it is, and such stories are the prevalent ones on Literotica and most other story sites. I prefer to read and write stories where a man can be manly in almost every stereotypical way yet still submissive when it comes to sex and pleasure, and respectful and gallant towards the fairer sex. There aren't many such stories on Lit or anywhere else.

 

[AG31]

Are there any female authors on lit who like to cover this subject matter, is there a noticeable difference of approach?

All my stories are about male surrender (a better word than submission for me, as it has less connotation of humiliation). VerbalAbuse thinks my stories

go against the established norm.

And I feel that he's right, but can't really explain it. If you're moved to read them, I'd love to hear what you think.

 

[AG31]

I prefer to read and write stories where a man can be manly in almost every stereotypical way yet still submissive when it comes to sex and pleasure, and respectful and gallant towards the fairer sex. There aren't many such stories on Lit or anywhere else

I'd be very interested to know how my stories impact you. Only two involve the man's attitude toward women, and then rather peripherally, but in my mind my male MCs exhibit "manliness."

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I'd be very interested to know how my stories impact you. Only two involve the man's attitude toward women, and then rather peripherally, but in my mind my male MCs exhibit "manliness."

I haven't read any of your stories but I always check the tags first, and judging by those, your stories seem to be about public display, nudity, and humiliation among other things. I dislike those kinks so those stories don't seem to be something I would enjoy.

 

[madelinemasoch]

I’m not sure if this is something I even want to talk about outside of a story. I frankly find the distaste other people have towards humiliation in an erotic context to be a useless limitation and something that I frankly do not understand. There are multitudinous different contexts and relationship forms and dynamics in which this kind of thing can take place and be characterized by. One of my favorite examples is the humiliation as a space that allows a woman to be as brutally honest and cruel as she needs to be, especially as a way of proving to her that she needs you and that you love her even more for it, that she can do anything to you and you’ll accept her for it, as a way of keeping her around. I think this one is the most delicious and I don’t care if people don’t think it’s healthy. If that was my only way in the door with certain people I would take it in an instant. I prefer when these things unfold naturally rather than having to plan it out ahead of time or coax the woman into this kind of speech and behavior. Let the unconscious plan it for us instead and just let it flow. It doesn’t have to be so unacceptable. The secret is once the door is open they actually tend to enjoy and appreciate this kind of thing as pleasurable. I don’t like humiliation when it reinforces negative restrictive societal structures of heterosexuality and economic exploitation (like a lot of financial domination and pornography promotes). I’m not even sure they understand what their speech and actions imply and why that world they thrive off of is actually detrimental to their own spirits. This has a deleterious effect on the culture and promotes disunity and division when humiliation could instead be used to seal up false divisions and violate us into continuity with each other.

Humiliation is used as a means of connection with the Goddess instead of a means of rejection into isolation and loneliness in my stories.

 

[madelinemasoch]

In terms of emasculation I think it actually reforms a new identity within the subject that is post-male or anti-masculine in its core. This is I think one door into trans-femininity or a hermaphroditism where Aphrodite triumphs. I enjoy when emasculation is paired and followed by feminization as well and only when this leads to worship of females rather than subjection to masculine heteronormativity. I don’t like when men exploit this kind of relationship for their own gain when the entire point is his overthrow in favor of the woman and the feminine, and I don’t like when women give in to that kind of thing. I think that the idea that women only want masculine guys or that women will inevitably naturally submit to the strongest males which is kind of implied by a lot of cuckold porn and stories is actually a misogynist myth and isn’t true in reality. It’s kind of hot but it’s really not that appealing theoretically or erotically for me. Female domination is supposed to transcend this kind of belief system and unleash its participants from its shackles. So emasculation is good for a transformative process if it leads in the direction of closeness with the woman. The language of the new subject it produces is subversive of both norms of (hetero)sexuality and masculinity in a gender and bio sex way. This is why I mostly use she/her for my feminized slave characters. It’s authentically subversive rather than being subsumed within any kind of artificially rebellious LGBT politic or what have you.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I agree with @AwkwardlySet - there's loads of stories in BDSM where a female sub is treated as a subhuman object. It rather goes beyond humiliation - 'not only will you be made to feel intense shame, you will be then treated as a mere thing and we don't give a fuck how you feel' - I generally stop reading because unrealistic (or even realistic) torture porn isn't my thing.

There's people who complain the BDSM category is too full of stories insisting there's the one true way, obsessing over consent and safe words and safety, but unfortunately I don't see that - there's still loads of stories where the male top/dom simply treats women like shit.

For a humiliation story, getting someone to feel more than embarrassment, getting into shame and unworthiness, you need to care enough to get them to feel something. It's a fine line to tread. If you have a man who really feels that dressing as a woman is humiliating, then that's a doddle. Vice versa? For a woman, it's a Tuesday.

What makes O still read today is there's not many other humiliation stories which get across that her owner does in fact care for her, in whatever twisted way. Which is why she still has any power at all.

I've written a few happily-submissive men, some being switches. Generally people who read them enjoy the stories, but not many people want to read them. I get the impression most people want to read about whichever sex being treated as a sex doll, rather than as anyone with their own thoughts.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I think that the idea that women only want masculine guys or that women will inevitably naturally submit to the strongest males which is kind of implied by a lot of cuckold porn and stories is actually a misogynist myth and isn’t true in reality.

If we are talking about reality now, I believe that the above statement is actually true for the majority of women. It does depend on the culture a lot, but in general, yeah, it's true in my opinion. I don't like that it's so as I believe that the sexes should be equal in all things and that physical strength, aggressiveness, and alpha behavior shouldn't play such a role. But they do. A lot.

What we were mostly talking about in the posts before yours, was fiction and fantasy. There at least, we have the freedom to paint everything as we want and not reflect reality, such as it is. That's why we can discuss our personal likes and dislikes and send all the messages we want to send. The kink you are so fond of, humiliation, there was no need to defend it really; no one was actually attacking it. It's a legit kink, one that many readers seem to enjoy.
We were merely stating our personal preferences but also commenting on the prevalent fantasies and themes in a subgroup of erotic stories.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I agree with @AwkwardMD -

Ahem!

 

[SPARTAN047]

The reason: submissive males who like to serve are not appreciated and are thought of as simps where it's their duty to serve and be crushed anyway.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Ahem!

Fixed!

 

[AG31]

getting someone to feel more than embarrassment, getting into shame and unworthiness, you need to care enough to get them to feel something.

Thanks for this! It's an embarrasingly (sic) obvious answer to a question I've wrestled with for several years. I write stories about men being treated badly, involving public nudity and being treated like an object, and such, but I've never been comfortable with the word "humiliation." I've settled on the word "surrender," but it's probably just as simple as "embarrasment." Humiliation requires some sort of personal relationship. My stories don't involve that. Thanks again!

 

[madelinemasoch]

If we are talking about reality now, I believe that the above statement is actually true for the majority of women. It does depend on the culture a lot, but in general, yeah, it's true in my opinion. I don't like that it's so as I believe that the sexes should be equal in all things and that physical strength, aggressiveness, and alpha behavior shouldn't play such a role. But they do. A lot.

What we were mostly talking about in the posts before yours, was fiction and fantasy. There at least, we have the freedom to paint everything as we want and not reflect reality, such as it is. That's why we can discuss our personal likes and dislikes and send all the messages we want to send. The kink you are so fond of, humiliation, there was no need to defend it really; no one was actually attacking it. It's a legit kink, one that many readers seem to enjoy.
We were merely stating our personal preferences but also commenting on the prevalent fantasies and themes in a subgroup of erotic stories.

This is interesting because I’m not that type of writer. All of my writing is reflecting priorly existing realities (small parts of a massive world) that I have beheld in other people before. My creative process involves bringing unconscious imprints to the surface of my mind. That’s what getting an idea is to me. I don’t really care what anyone outside of this process which is actually very personal and intimate to me has to say about them. I will continue believing it. And so I think your reality/fantasy dichotomy is actually transcended by the creative process of catching ideas. The fantasies wouldn’t be in my head if they weren’t reflecting something real outside of myself.

Also I wasn’t seeking to defend erotic humiliation, I was just trying to answer why it might be enjoyable or useful in a narrative and what it means to me.

 

[AlexBailey]

In my thinking, humiliation requires internal conflict. Being outed for something you embrace isn’t humiliating unless some expectation is being seriously compromised.

For me, going out in a skirt with my hair in braids is fun and in line with my identity, but I think it’s fair to say most men would feel uncomfortable and possibly humiliated to be seen that way.

To me it logically means that a story that highlights humiliation reinforces stereotypes rather than breaking them down.

Personally I like stories that work through social expectations - especially when more acceptance is nurtured, but that’s just my own preference. I understand that humiliation and forced situations can let someone off the hook for their actions. They can struggle emotionally and identify what they enjoy while submitting without needing to take responsibility for the situation.

It’s not a judgement, it’s just a matter of taste and preference.

 

[countdowntolov3]

I'm a woman, and I write stories with heavy submission/humiliation elements. Often when I read a submissive-male story, I find myself thinking, "Oh, that's not the kind of humiliation I think I'd enjoy." It's hard to know if it's a gender thing, or just my personal preferences. After all, there are plenty of stories about submissive women that aren't my thing either.

If I try to find stories about submissive men that fit my particular taste, I feel like most of them include the feminization kink. "Girl feminizes boy, teases him, but it's still sweet." That sort of thing. But I'm not really into the feminization part, as much as the blushing-submissive-boy vibe. Not really sure what to make of that. Maybe "feminization" is easier to search for than "submissive male but not the mean kind but also not too nice just right in the middle how I like it"? Or maybe I'm just bad at using tags...