Gender Identity

[BareMySoul]

Evining all

How, if at all, do you guys define your gender identity? I've had a nose around the boards and stories and have noticed many different expressions of the idea of gender; I'm curious to know how others define or view themselves. I see gender as something flexible and fluid, and it's interesting to see such diversity on this site.

What are your thoughts and opinions? Anybody else share the same views? I'm doing a study on the relationship between sexuality and gender identity, and would love to hear the thoughts of others on this subject.

Opinions would be gratefully received

 

[Stella_Omega]

Sexual orientation, per se, has nothing to do with gender identification; those two things are orthogonal, my newest favorite word!

Of course you know Kinsey's scale of orientation, right? I consider that there are many scales dealing with our identity, our sexuality, and even how we relate to other people's identities.

I'm trans gender. If the know-how had been available as a teen, I probably would have fully transitioned. I solidly identified as a man.

Presentation-wise, I was a very femmy guy, luckily Ziggy Stardust etc had offered a model for the look at least. Orientation-wise, I was bisexual, but it was much easier to get with guys than with girls sexually. I identified as what I now would call homoflexible male...
And on the asexual -to- hypersexual scale, I was hypersexual. Still am. Now, I am doing the transition thing, but after all of these years I do not ID as male any longer, and I am oriented mostly towards women, including trans women, and I don't consider myself a straight guy-- nor exactly a lesbian. I am attracted to gender in almost every form except onstage drag queens because I don't like the tampon jokes.

 

[haurni]

I'm a heteroflexible guy (I prefer women but I like men too) presenting as quite masculine in appearance, though I have some gender fluidity/dysphoria. In addition to the usual straight guy's interests I'm attracted to lesbians, transwomen and some men. If I was younger or if I'd started getting more in touch with my 'feminine side' sooner I'd probably be more obviously flexible around gender issues - in fact, I'd like to be, and it's something I'm exploring. Knowing what I know now, and if I'd had the option when I was born, I'd have chosen to be a bisexual female - I don't 'need' to be a woman, but I'd like to be. If I had a magic wand that would let me change my sex and give me all the necessary knowledge of how to live as a woman, I'd still be a guy on occasion but I'd probably spend more time as female. This feeling is getting stronger as I get older.

 

[BareMySoul]

Thank you for the replies.

Yes, I'm familiar with the Kinsey scale. I've met and exchanged words with quite a few people on this subject, and many people seem to be of the opinion that sexual orientation and gender identity are very closely linked, far from orthoganal (which is a good word ) It is nice to hear an opinion that does not echo this.

 

[haurni]

Many people would be wrong.

I point to (without necessarily endorsing the conclusions of) a paper by Lawrence (Arch. Sex Behav., 2010, 39:514-45) who asserts that sexual orientation is an important factor in studies of transsexuality, and research by Veale (M.A. thesis, U. of Albany, 2005), Freund et al. (Arch. Sex Behav., 1982, 11(1):49-63) and Blanchard (Arch. Sex. Behav., 1985, 14(3):247-261) showing that (at least MTF) transgender people exhibit a wide range of sexual orientations.

 

[stickygirl]

Thank you for the replies.

Yes, I'm familiar with the Kinsey scale. I've met and exchanged words with quite a few people on this subject, and many people seem to be of the opinion that sexual orientation and gender identity are very closely linked, far from orthoganal (which is a good word ) It is nice to hear an opinion that does not echo this.

Really?! In the context of the wider population then that correlation would be correct and, forgive if I'm not up to speed with terminology, but for the majority of the population the understood model is boy meets girl, have sex and both live a blissful long life raising more heterosexual kids.

Hmm - I'd be interested in anything you have on that because that's a surprise to me. Who have you been asking?

You seem to be holding back something here regarding your study. I appreciate you don't want to skew replies by making a statement at this point, but why are you asking?

I'd agree that gender is fluid within the population but not necessarily for the individual. Gender fluid is not common amongst the LGBT community in my experience - there are few but most trans* are pretty sure of their gender.

Stella - I never had you down for an Orthogonalist. You're not one of those Helmert extremists are you?
Haurni - I love it when you quote all the stuff. You know how to push my buttons, you dirty dog

 

[haurni]

Haurni - I love it when you quote all the stuff. You know how to push my buttons, you dirty dog

I'd be happy to test your null hypotheses, SG.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

I am a bisexual male- male because I was born one and have strong desire to be one, yet feminine undertones, having small desire to be a woman, wonders of what-ifs etc.

Probably more pansexual than anything as I will date or fornicate with anything with a penis or vagina even if it's "not supposed to have it." Bisexual works fine and leaves little to explain.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Lemme just point out that OP merely said a lot of people think that, not that they themself do.

Many people would be wrong.

I point to (without necessarily endorsing the conclusions of) a paper by Lawrence (Arch. Sex Behav., 2010, 39:514-45) who asserts that sexual orientation is an important factor in studies of transsexuality, and research by Veale (M.A. thesis, U. of Albany, 2005), Freund et al. (Arch. Sex Behav., 1982, 11(1):49-63) and Blanchard (Arch. Sex. Behav., 1985, 14(3):247-261) showing that (at least MTF) transgender people exhibit a wide range of sexual orientations.

I can assure you that FTM do as well. AMong the guys I talk to are guys who ID as straight male, ex-lesbian male, gay male... Some guys only feel comfortable sexually with other trans guys. I personally identify more as a queer woman the higher my T levels go.

Go figure.

 

[blade_rocknut]

Thank you for the replies.

Yes, I'm familiar with the Kinsey scale. I've met and exchanged words with quite a few people on this subject, and many people seem to be of the opinion that sexual orientation and gender identity are very closely linked, far from orthoganal (which is a good word ) It is nice to hear an opinion that does not echo this.

Studies aside, I opine that gender and sexuality are only coincidentally associated, and neither is indicative or dependent on the other.

 

[haurni]

I would disagree. Obviously it's not a one to one mapping between gender and sexuality (a statement with which anyone reading this section of the forums would probably agree), but neither is it 'coincidental'. I believe that nature has arranged things so that we (as a species) generally have certain preferences but, as reality tends to be rather fuzzy, this is not and never has been a binary thing. By definition there'll always be someone out there on the tail ends of the normal distribution. But vive la difference.

 

[stickygirl]

I still don't understand the original question
or how to answer it
I think I may have gender-question-fatigue asdfghjkl

 

[haurni]

I still don't understand the original question
or how to answer it

I think she's looking for a list of terms/categories related to peoples' self-perceptions of their sexuality. Gay, bi, lesbian, pansexual, asexual, queer, genderqueer, two-spirit, etc. Just a shot in the dark here but I'm guessing that it relates to whether or not people put themselves into rigid/binary categories (gay/straight) or whether they pick several.

I see gender as something flexible and fluid, and it's interesting to see such diversity on this site.

Certainly there are people who say that they've always known they were of the opposite gender, or who've always known that they were gay. I think there are others who sort of grow into things. And of course sexual expression and the targets thereof can vary depending on situational factors. About the only thing you can count on with people is that to fit everyone into categories you need a lot of categories!

I initiated a discussion on a related topic a few months ago but it didn't last very long.

 

[blade_rocknut]

Good point. I didn't pay close attention to the original question, either.

I try not to label myself anything other than male; gender wise. Although I know I'm not hard at the male end of the spectrum, I stop shy of using "gender fluid"; because I really can't lay claim to legitimately being able to move from one expression to the other. Playing dress up doesn't make me a girl, and I know that. Maybe gender flexible? I definitely bend the rules... but spring back.

Sexuality. I called myself straight for too many years, but again; flexible seems applicable. Heteroflexible is a label I've taken a shine to.

 

[haurni]

Heteroflexible is a label I've taken a shine to.

I like that one as well as it expresses the fact that I'm biased (but not exclusively) toward women. At the same time, it seems to bear the implication that I'd only go for a guy if there were no women around, or as a second choice, or as something I could 'tolerate', which isn't quite true. 'Heteropreferential', maybe?? 'Heteroinclined'?

 

[stickygirl]

Evining all

How, if at all, do you guys define your gender identity? Female I've had a nose around the boards and stories and have noticed many different expressions of the idea of gender; I'm curious to know how others define or view themselves. I see gender as something flexible and fluid, and it's interesting to see such diversity on this site. There is no gender binary

What are your thoughts and opinions? Anybody else share the same views? I'm doing a study What study? on the relationship between sexuality and gender identity,There is none and would love to hear the thoughts of others on this subject.

Opinions would be gratefully received You're most welcome

I think she's looking for a list of terms/categories related to peoples' self-perceptions of their sexuality.

She? Maybe she's gender fluid? If the OP would have the courtesy to reveal a little more of zerself in zer profile I might feel bothered to take the enquiry seriously. So far I feel like someone has accosted me in the street with another survey.

Certainly there are people who say that they've always known they were of the opposite gender Huh? You mean to their assigned birth gender, or who've always known that they were gay. About the only thing you can count on with people is that to fit everyone into categories you need a lot of categories!

I initiated a discussion on a related topic a few months ago but it didn't last very long.

I thought that was a really good discussion and I hope the OP has a look through that
I'd love to hear where the OP has gotten ( note American slang I'm picking up ) the idea that gender and sexuality were AT ALL related. Frankly for someone who is doing a serious study that is one naive statement. So I'll ask the OP once again - What study? What is your background? Why, apart from idle curiosity, are you asking?
Here's some reading - https://www.genderspectrum.org/understanding-gender
One final question - Why am I so crabby today?

 

[blade_rocknut]

I like that one as well as it expresses the fact that I'm biased (but not exclusively) toward women. At the same time, it seems to bear the implication that I'd only go for a guy if there were no women around, or as a second choice, or as something I could 'tolerate', which isn't quite true. 'Heteropreferential', maybe?? 'Heteroinclined'?

One may read that into it, or; as I apply the moniker, I'm strongly biased toward women, but there are some other individuals who push my button.

 

[haurni]

She?

I made a (perhaps unwarranted) assumption based on the contents of the OPs previous posts.

Certainly there are people who say that they've always known they were of the opposite gender Huh? You mean to their assigned birth gender

My bad, I did not phrase that properly, and thank you for pointing it out. I think I should have said "people whose gender doesn't accord with what they were assigned at birth".

One may read that into it, or; as I apply the moniker, I'm strongly biased toward women, but there are some other individuals who push my button.

I was just mulling over potential negative connotations of the term. Since we're talking about labels here I was wondering if there was a better single-word descriptor to catch what you have just expressed so aptly.

 

[Dyslexicea]

I still don't understand the original question
or how to answer it
I think I may have gender-question-fatigue asdfghjkl

I may be one of those who's caused some of your fatigue but you are right the question does at times become very fatiguing.

Even when it comes to gender (gender being what sex a person was born) isn't as simple as female male. XX or XY aren't the only combinations possible for humans. For those of us who have the more common 26 chromosomes it is XX XY. 25 chromosome of those only XOs survive to birth. There is also 27 chromosome which results in XXX, XXY and XYY. The only one of those three which is completely normal biologically is the XXX and surprisingly very common, about one in one thousand women are XXX. Further complicating matters are those who have 28 chromosomes.

I could even, although it would take a book, go into how during gestation as we develop from a fetus to a human beings, the many triggers and hormones don't always, actually never, act the same for each of us and this is true even for identical twins, which I am one of, so although many of us may be XX or XY not all of us are able to identify with our biological gender.

As Stella pointed out gender identity isn't related to sexuality by which I assume you mean orientation. I identify as a woman and I am a woman born woman, in my case my orientation is same sex but for others who identify as women their orientation may be bisexual or heterosexual. Let me complicate this even more, a woman can be lesbian(same sex) yet be asexual just as she can be heterosexual or bisexual in orientation but still be asexual. The trouble is language and we are stuck with a male driven language. Men tend to think with their little heads and even when they think with the big one they are influenced by the small one. Which means we are stuck with terms like homosexual, heterosexual and bisexual. None of those terms really address orientation, meaning which gender can we have meaningful love type relationships with. Which most of the time includes sex but not always and for many it's not sex forever. Sexual desire can and does die, hopefully not for me but if it did it wouldn't change my orientation.

Making your question even more complicated is gender expression. I never know by such vague questions as "what is your gender identity" how am I suppose to respond. I'm femme my gender expression is to the feminine side. My wife, the love of my life, is stud so her gender expression is more masculine. But both of us identify as women. Again language is a problem to accurately describe my gender expression neither feminine=female, NO, masculine=male, NO, can ever describe how I outwardly and inwardly express myself. There really isn't a yin and yang to gender, we are all both feminine and masculine and many degrees in-between.

 

[Bramblethorn]

One may read that into it, or; as I apply the moniker, I'm strongly biased toward women, but there are some other individuals who push my button.

Since we're talking about labels here I was wondering if there was a better single-word descriptor to catch what you have just expressed so aptly.

"Gynophilic" is useful if you want to convey "attracted to women" without making a statement about your own gender; similarly "androphilic" for men.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Even when it comes to gender (gender being what sex a person was born)

I'm not looking to start up another definitions argument, but I think that's the opposite of standard usage. The great majority of sources that acknowledge a distinction between "sex" and "gender" use "sex" for physical/genetic characteristics and "gender" for behaviour/identity. For instance:

World Health Organization: '"Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women. "Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.'

GLAAD defines "sex" as classification as male or female, assigned at birth based on bodily characteristics, "gender identity" as one's personal sense of being a man or a woman, and "gender expression" as external manifestation of gender identity.

Monash University School of Medicine: "Sex refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs. Gender describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine."

Australian Government guidelines: "Gender is part of a person’s social and personal identity. It refers to each person’s deeply felt internal and individual identity, and the way a person presents and is recognised within the community. A trans or transgender person is someone who identifies as a gender that is different to their sex at birth."

isn't as simple as female male. XX or XY aren't the only combinations possible for humans. For those of us who have the more common 26 chromosomes it is XX XY. 25 chromosome of those only XOs survive to birth. There is also 27 chromosome which results in XXX, XXY and XYY. The only one of those three which is completely normal biologically is the XXX and surprisingly very common, about one in one thousand women are XXX. Further complicating matters are those who have 28 chromosomes.

Adding to this: a lot of people don't have identical sets of chromosomes in all their cells. A person can have XX in their blood and XY in their skin, for instance. Increasing use of genetic testing shows that chimera/mosaic conditions are more common than most would have guessed. I recently posted a link on the GLBT news forum to a story about an autopsy study which found that more than half of Canadian women autopsied had some XY cells in their brains.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I like that one as well as it expresses the fact that I'm biased (but not exclusively) toward women. At the same time, it seems to bear the implication that I'd only go for a guy if there were no women around, or as a second choice, or as something I could 'tolerate', which isn't quite true. 'Heteropreferential', maybe?? 'Heteroinclined'?

I REALLY love your two new terms. really, really. You've done the world a great service!

I am pretty tired of people bringing chromosomes into every discussion about gender. Billions of people identify, and present, in ways that seemingly belie their natal chromosome designations. X's and Y's are but the merest beginnings of who we are.

One final question - Why am I so crabby today?

(((hugs)))

 

[Bramblethorn]

I REALLY love your two new terms. really, really. You've done the world a great service!

I am pretty tired of people bringing chromosomes into every discussion about gender. Billions of people identify, and present, in ways that seemingly belie their natal chromosome designations. X's and Y's are but the merest beginnings of who we are.

Apologies for that. I only meant to underline the point that anybody who uses chromosomes in support of a rigid binary doesn't know very much about how chromosomes work. (At least that's how I interpreted Dyslexicea's point, and agreed with it.)

 

[stickygirl]

^^^ which all goes to show how our language is a fudge of the truth but to be fair to language, traditional cultural values were established long before genes were ever discovered. It's nice to have some hard science so let the LGBT community say "We told you so" but that doesn't even come close to changing the views of the man-in-the-street.

Slight digression here
One little beacon of good news in the UK today and one that makes me proud of my fellow countryfolk, is that our Olympic diving champ, Tom Daley, came out as bi on YouTube "I've dated girls... but I've met someone who makes me feel safe and happy... and I'm dating a guy and I couldn't feel happier". In a few hours, he's had over 2million hits and 77k thumbs up against 1k thumbs down and an overwhelming number of supportive messages. It probably helps that he's a complete babe
I think the man on the street is becoming the old man in the retirement home because my generation are going like *ok, cool* There's a lot to do in changing attitudes and language and even kicking ideas around in Lit's little fishbowl does help. Big love to the older Stonewall generation who set the ball rolling

and no Dyslexicea, you've not contributed to my weary If it helps people understand then I'll be there. I hope BaremySoul does step back in - don't be put off by our zillion post histories - we're all still learning just like you

 

[haurni]

as simple as female male. XX or XY aren't the only combinations possible for humans. For those of us who have the more common 26 chromosomes it is XX XY. 25 chromosome of those only XOs survive to birth. There is also 27 chromosome which results in XXX, XXY and XYY. The only one of those three which is completely normal biologically is the XXX and surprisingly very common, about one in one thousand women are XXX. Further complicating matters are those who have 28 chromosomes.

Adding to this: a lot of people don't have identical sets of chromosomes in all their cells. A person can have XX in their blood and XY in their skin, for instance. Increasing use of genetic testing shows that chimera/mosaic conditions are more common than most would have guessed. I recently posted a link on the GLBT news forum to a story about an autopsy study which found that more than half of Canadian women autopsied had some XY cells in their brains.

Then there are those who have two chromosomes (or maybe more) but are intersex of various sorts. And of course they also have their orientations, gender (or not), preferred modes of gender expression, and so on.

There's a documentary called "Intersexion" that's worth watching - I think it may be on YouTube but there's a trailer for it here. In it is a great quote from one of the interviewees: "There's more to being a man or a woman than just a genital. People have genitals, people are not genitals. I know that's hard to believe because we've all met a lot of pricks in our lives."