Gay females and the dreaded male gaze

[Pantalaimon44]

Presuming the attention isn’t always completely unwanted, I wonder how many lesbian couples have (I hesitate to use the word enjoyed here) benefited some way in their relationship by the occasional attraction of a non-female ally? Obviously different relationships vary, but…

and I'm not saying “is it okay to lust after and objectify two women who are in love”, or even, that’s there’s necessarily anything welcome about the male gaze in any context, but…

Once I was at a "Friendsgiving" in the USA and my wife and I got to know a gay couple at the party. They were both really attractive human beings, obviously open-minded, avid travellers, intelligent but also clearly in love with one another. They just happened to both be women.

I know it’s a bit cliche, a cis-male swooning over two cute women who were only into other women, but I keep telling myself it wasn’t like that. I didn’t “just want to watch” or hope they were secretly bisexual and wanted a threesome or whatever really, but something about these two beautiful people, who were queer and not heterosexual, really provoked a certain kind of arousal in me.

To be fair, I would have been attracted to either of them individually, and have been attracted to other people who are less traditionally feminine. Not exclusively, mind you. I’m pansexual/polysexual so I find lots and lots of people attractive physically. Somehow their “gayness” added a little something to it, even though I know I do not fit into their potential ideals of what is attractive.

Like, I find Ellie from the Last of Us 2 (the adult Ellie) super super attractive, and I know she's not expressly masculine and doesn't defy any supposed "traditional" ideas of what is attractive, but I love the fact that she's gay. Both games ostensibly try to get the player to feel love, real love, for this character and I think they largely succeed.

A YouTuber named Makingemi has come up in my feed because of The Last of Us and she and her girlfriend are just simply adorable. I honestly don't perv over them, but I do feel... ashamed? for feeling some kind of attraction I guess... to these women who I can imagine feel absolutely nothing for any cis males that might be watching.

Blah, ramble over. If you've gotten this far, thanks for reading.

 

[Bigaug]

Not sure if this counts or applies to what you are talking about, but one night, wife and I went into a bar restaurant/ type place for a drink and a snack, they sat us in the back of the restaurant at a small table, two women were in a booth about 10 feet away from us sitting on the same side, they were obviously feeling no pain, I moved next to my wife at her request and she said lets watch, they were rubbing under the table, and then noticed us staring, my wife was horny as hell and they kept it up , one had a short skirt and we watched as her friend moved her hand up slowly and played with her, this caused my wife to take my hand and put it between her legs, I was hard as a rock, after a long half hour, they both came and I exploded and my wife came, it was wonderful, they got up to leave and the one with a dress, went close by my wife softly rubbed her cheek and said same time next week? We went back the next week and the week after, no luck, tried a few other nights, unfortunately the restaurant changed ownership and stuff like that was no longer allowed, but we use that night often in our masturbation sessions!

 

[Escierto]

Seeing a lesbian couple always makes me happy.

 

[stickygirl]

Male gaze is unlikely to disappear from the lexicon while there is cause for it to be there.

Here's a outline of what it means - not the sound-bite slap down it has become to women having opinions or hoping to start a meaningful discussion.

I started a thread about the female gaze in the Authors hangout for the sake of balance some time ago.

 

[AlexBailey]

I wish the term "male gaze" would be eliminated from the public lexicon. It basically singles out men for doing something that A) comes naturally to them and B) that every other non-male person does but we're made to feel bad about it.

Humans admire other humans and humans objectify each other regardless of gender and sexuality.

This.


Some scattered thoughts:

I believe that among men there are many rotten apples who help to ruin the reputations of all others. That said, though they are fewer and farther between, there are also rotten apples among women.

There are many different definitions of 'male gaze' and someone's definition of it can say as much about the person using the term as it does about the gaze perspective.


Some feminists prescribe to a belief that there is a concerted effort by men to subjugate women. While there are some serious misogynists out there who feel threatened by being brought down to equal social standing with women, I hope and want to believe the this is a minority of men.

Some men are disgusting gonad driven dogs who see women only as sexual objects. Again, there are many men out there like this but I hope and believe that this is a minority.


I have been a male with a partner who self-identified as a lesbian living within a lesbian community. My presence was not always welcome and I've felt judged, marginalized , and excluded in my own home and within my community simply because I was born male. I understand how it feels and can relate when a woman feels discriminated against both overtly and passively.

As a soft, sometimes effeminate male I understand the dangers of walking alone or being confronted by aggressive males. I've been mistaken for female and groped in crowds, whistled at and had cars slow down as they pass me on the street. If you're a guy who does this sort of thing DO NOT think it serves as any sort of compliment, there are way too many bad apples out there, too many dangerous possibilities for it to be a comfortable situation for many of the objects of someone's lack of impulse control.

It's sad, but the bad apples have ruined the barrel for everyone. Good men should stand up against the dogs who objectify women. Way too often the 'locker room talk' gets disrespectful. It's okay to admire, but keep it respectful.


I love seeing girls kissing and loving on other girls. Part of it is all of the delicious femininity, but another part is the bravery and self determination required to go against the grain of social norms. What is sexier than self-confidence? I suppose that an insecure male could be upset by lesbians, after all, lesbians can be seen to have rejected men, turned their backs on them. After all, what is a guy to think of the saying, 'A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.'? Behind every woman I've known who hated males is a story that justifies the position.


I've also known many women who look at other women with a 'male gaze' -- I've heard girls talking about what they would want to do with Kristen Stewart, Mary Stewart Masterson or women they've seen around town. I've seen girls whistle at other girls on the street. Being a gonad driven dog is not a uniquely male thing.


I think it's fine to feel how you feel. The problem comes when someone allows their views and desires to become a burden for someone else. Be good. Be respectful. Make the world safer and more comfortable for others and everyone will be better off.

 

[Escierto]

Male gaze is unlikely to disappear from the lexicon while there is cause for it to be there.

Here's a outline of what it means - not the sound-bite slap down it has become to women having opinions or hoping to start a meaningful discussion.

I started a thread about the female gaze in the Authors hangout for the sake of balance some time ago.

Wow, what a thread that was! Very interesting conversation. There do not seem to be threads like that on Lit today.

 

[stickygirl]

This.
Some scattered thoughts:

~snip~

I think it's fine to feel how you feel. The problem comes when someone allows their views and desires to become a burden for someone else. Be good. Be respectful. Make the world safer and more comfortable for others and everyone will be better off.

If I may say so Alex, and I maybe Emp 2, you’ve fallen into the ‘extremes’ trap for illustration purposes by referring to misandrous lesbians and gonad driven men. Those extreme views exist but are not the norm, as you well know and they are outside the bounds of gaze. Male gaze was systemic in the film industry, in advertising and in employment - and broadly speaking still is, despite some legislation. Is not defined as extreme behaviour, it is casually expressed. In the work place it is the judgement of women as sexual objects first and whatever role they are recruited for, second. They are either ball-busters or teases... virgins or sluts... same same.

Should men do what comes naturally to them? No. Not if that means making women uncomfortable or demeaned. Yes there are good men, but how many have listened to the sexual banter in locker rooms and actually spoken up? Not many men will speak up for women, will they, so we have to speak up for ourselves and be cussed for it.

I’m lucky to work in a good environment and yes of course there is flirting and humour between people who know each other well and appreciate the boundaries, so risque jokes are in context. Moreover if someone does overstep the boundary, they’ll get a raised eyebrow or some kind of feedback to let them know. In the street, amongst strangers, being a regular guy, perhaps keen to impress others with his ego-size, being a dude is invariably offensive and objectifying. I’m not a kill-joy nor would I encourage that, but the context is important.

 

[AlexBailey]

....Yes there are good men, but how many have listened to the sexual banter in locker rooms and actually spoken up? Not many men will speak up for women, will they, so we have to speak up for ourselves and be cussed for it.

....In the street, amongst strangers, being a regular guy, perhaps keen to impress others with his ego-size, being a dude is invariably offensive and objectifying. I’m not a kill-joy nor would I encourage that, but the context is important.

Context is always important.


Over several decades as a lead contractor, employer, and project manager I have chastised guys for being inappropriate on construction sites on many occasions and have turned down a project based on a customer's attitudes toward LGBTQ. My wife is a social worker at a shelter where social intervention is a daily occurrence. My sons are very sensitive about these issues - I've overheard heard them talking with their friends, discouraging objectification. Apparently they also once drove someone out of a party who insisted on calling a trans friend by his dead name. The offender was annoyed that he was 'expected to remember' and use the new name and belligerently insisted that he had known the person before transition so he could refer to them however he wished. It takes courage and conviction to speak up to strangers and peers, and providing a role model and example makes it easier for others to muster the courage also do the right thing.


Back to context; the OP of this thread seemed to be speaking of 'male gaze' in daily life and experience rather than in media. He had mentioned feeling, "...ashamed? for feeling some kind of attraction I guess... to these women who I can imagine feel absolutely nothing for any cis males that might be watching."


The OP also asked:

"I wonder how many lesbian couples have (I hesitate to use the word enjoyed here) benefited some way in their relationship by the occasional attraction of a non-female ally?"

I've known girls who got off on the reactions they would get from men or women from their Public Displays of Affection, sometimes just for fun, but also as a political action statement back in the early nineties - having queer kiss-ins on the Capitol steps and whatnot. (The first time I really kissed another guy was at a pride kiss-in.)


So yeah, context can be everything!




(BTW, I believe that concerns for profits and maximizing viewership is what is most responsible for 'male gaze' in media. I think it is a very rare exception where someone is trying to encourage a deeper social power dynamic.)

(And yes, Stickgirl. You may always say so.)

 

[HoldYouDown]

Do male gays like the male gaze?

 

[AlexBailey]

How many different terms do we need to indicate that someone isn't heterosexual? Cis gender, nonbinary, fem boys, trannys pre-op and post-op, pre-op with meds...etc is getting confusing to me.

No snark, just confusion.

Is it any less confusing to identify someone's race?

Do male gays like the male gaze?

Certainly some do. Some women like it too.

 

[AlexBailey]

You responded to my question with a question. I think that in spite of me stating no snark, just curiosity, you were offended.

Is there anyone less thin-skinned who can offer any helpful insight?

You misinterpreted my reaponse.

I'm not thin-skinned at all. Intended it to be thought provoking, not snarky. Notice in my signature how feel about my own pronouns? It was a real analogy. People often feel similarly about identifying their gender or sexuality as others do about identifying their ethnicity, right down to how they may or may not be offended about being mislabeled or the way people within their group may use terms that may be seen as offensive when used by someone outside of their group.

For example, I like being called queer by people who understand it as between genders, but it can also be used by others as a smear. I also like non-binary/gender-fluid though I would not expect three terms to be used by anyone who was not familiar with the terms and wouldn't know the difference -- much the same as someone from the United States might not differentiate between Latinos and the different South American ethnic groups.

Accuracy is unimportant when someone is being congenial, but when they know the difference yet they use terms that they know are offensive... well, that's a different matter.

 

[Pantalaimon44]

Not sure if this counts or applies to what you are talking about, but one night, wife and I went into a bar restaurant/ type place for a drink and a snack, they sat us in the back of the restaurant at a small table, two women were in a booth about 10 feet away from us sitting on the same side, they were obviously feeling no pain, I moved next to my wife at her request and she said lets watch, they were rubbing under the table, and then noticed us staring, my wife was horny as hell and they kept it up , one had a short skirt and we watched as her friend moved her hand up slowly and played with her, this caused my wife to take my hand and put it between her legs, I was hard as a rock, after a long half hour, they both came and I exploded and my wife came, it was wonderful, they got up to leave and the one with a dress, went close by my wife softly rubbed her cheek and said same time next week? We went back the next week and the week after, no luck, tried a few other nights, unfortunately the restaurant changed ownership and stuff like that was no longer allowed, but we use that night often in our masturbation sessions!

Thank you for this story! It's more or less what I'm talking about. Just a mutual enjoyment, or I guess as any couple that might be hot and turning people on, there's more than a satisfaction, there's an encouragement, I guess.

I can't imagine the mess everyone made during that experience, and honestly, it can still live in your minds as a truly exceptional moment. Doing it week after week although seemingly welcome, would only lessen the experience. Just be glad that it happened. Well, it sounds a little too good to be true, but bless you for sharing it.

 

[Pantalaimon44]

If I may say so Alex, and I maybe Emp 2, you’ve fallen into the ‘extremes’ trap for illustration purposes by referring to misandrous lesbians and gonad driven men. Those extreme views exist but are not the norm, as you well know and they are outside the bounds of gaze. Male gaze was systemic in the film industry, in advertising and in employment - and broadly speaking still is, despite some legislation. Is not defined as extreme behaviour, it is casually expressed. In the work place it is the judgement of women as sexual objects first and whatever role they are recruited for, second. They are either ball-busters or teases... virgins or sluts... same same.

Should men do what comes naturally to them? No. Not if that means making women uncomfortable or demeaned. Yes there are good men, but how many have listened to the sexual banter in locker rooms and actually spoken up? Not many men will speak up for women, will they, so we have to speak up for ourselves and be cussed for it.

I’m lucky to work in a good environment and yes of course there is flirting and humour between people who know each other well and appreciate the boundaries, so risque jokes are in context. Moreover if someone does overstep the boundary, they’ll get a raised eyebrow or some kind of feedback to let them know. In the street, amongst strangers, being a regular guy, perhaps keen to impress others with his ego-size, being a dude is invariably offensive and objectifying. I’m not a kill-joy nor would I encourage that, but the context is important.

Thank you for this, I can't agree more, honestly.

First of all, sorry everyone on this thread for bringing up such a divisive term in the subject.

But I have to say, I think we talk more about the male gaze, because it's inadvertently or intentionally enforcing stereotypes in our society, and they can be harmful.

I get that a cis male (or cis-male looking person) might be discriminated against in other context, but the reason people talk about "the male gaze" being a problem I think is because it probably has a net larger effect or happens in overwhelmingly larger numbers to the other types of bigotry and prejudice.


Anyway, I feel silly starting this thread now, especially because of the discussion that has come out of it, but more the fool I am for trying to express that "I'm a cis bi male and I found a lesbian couple attractive and I think they noticed... and they didn't seem to mind." Maybe if I hadn't danced around and tried to phase things in terms of euphemisms, I would have realised that it was a crock of shit post and I was better off leaving it out and not bringing it up in the first place.

I'm not upset with any of you, mind you, although I may not fully agree with you all... I'm just irritated with myself for behaving like such a knob.

That being said, I'm not going to feel bad for being attracted to those women for being gay, or just being authentic women. But to my mind, there's not a fine line between looking at someone and finding that one is attracted, to "perving" over them and being obnoxious. Hopefully I haven't strayed too much into the latter.

 

[AlexBailey]

No worries Pan,

Context is everything...this is a porn site after all! Just be respectful.

I love watching girls on girls. I’ve been at ecstasy parties where I was either the only guy or one of three with twenty or so girls who were mostly lesbians. Ever seen twelve girls in a circle of munch?

 

[Asian_Flower]

Boys will be boys. Girls probably look just as much. Why waste time over analysing natural behaviour.

 

[Pantalaimon44]

Too true. We’re all sexual beings and really, the world would probably be a better place on the whole if it were celebrated instead of demonized. Sex-positivity and all that.

I don’t think people should “own” each other in that way. I get that jealousy happens and all that, but I wish compersion were more widely recognised and understood.

 

[Pantalaimon44]

No worries Pan,

Context is everything...this is a porn site after all! Just be respectful.

I love watching girls on girls. I’ve been at ecstasy parties where I was either the only guy or one of three with twenty or so girls who were mostly lesbians. Ever seen twelve girls in a circle of munch?

I hope I’m being respectful, but hopefully someone would tell me if I’m not.

I have, of course, seen a “circle of munch” (still chuckling about that a few days later), but not IRL. That’s a bucket list item that’s probably going to remain unticked for some time, sadly.

Yeah, sex education should start with girls on girls. Or just start at the pansexual/polysexual/bisexual level and then go more and more vanilla.