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US helicopter fire upon civilians on live TV!
Thirteen dead for certain (including the reporter).
Thirteen dead for certain (including the reporter).
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I just saw this in the news. He was just stood there, doing a piece to camera, and got shot!
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That was way up close!
The Arab world will go nuts over the repeated images on TVs!
The Arab world will go nuts over the repeated images on TVs!
Colleen Thomas
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Many of the dead were killed when a U.S. helicopter fired on a disabled U.S. Bradley fighting vehicle as Iraqis swarmed around it, cheering, throwing stones and waving the black and yellow sunburst banner of Iraq (news - web sites)'s most-feared terror organization.
That's an excerpt from an Ap report. The APC was disabled by a car bomb, the crew escaped, but the apache fired on the ApC to keep insurgents from looting munitions from inside the disabled vehicle.
-Colly
That's an excerpt from an Ap report. The APC was disabled by a car bomb, the crew escaped, but the apache fired on the ApC to keep insurgents from looting munitions from inside the disabled vehicle.
-Colly
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The report I saw was on the BBC news. All was quiet and reasonably calm and the reporter was giving an account of what had just happened, when a part of a helicopter came into view behind him, and opened fire. Wrong place at the wrong time, maybe, but it looked bloody awful.
Colleen Thomas
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Tatelou said:
It was a car bomb that disabled it, according to the report. Not a "hot" fire zone, but the apache was called for support by the APC crew before they bailed out.
I'm not terribly knowledgeable, but even I know standing near a recently disabled vehicle is just about suicidal. In an insurgency, the rounds in a Bradley's main gun would make a ton of improvised ordanance. And we dropped bombs on our own disabled tanks rather than let them be looted during the active combat phase of this mess.
I'm sure it made a neato backdrop, but still, that was defintely not very wise on his part. Considering this is a gurilla war and it's very hard to tell civilian from insurgant, standing there while people were waving a terrorists group's flag is even more hard to explain.
I know photo jpiurnalists often risk a great deal to get the story, but I am still shocked a correspondant would take that kind of risk.
-Colly
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Two children were also killed in the same round of fire. I have no further comment on this.
Virtual_Burlesque
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There is a considerable visual difference between a lone reporter who has sauntered up to a disabled vehicle and one videotaping with a television news crew.Colleen Thomas said:
At the very least that implies one reporter facing one camera-person holding a video camera — perhaps a sound person also, and probably a marked vehicle nearby with some type of transmitter to get the signal back live.
The U.S. Army Apache helicopter fired its missile at the Bradley, killing Mazen al-Tumeizi, a 28-year-old Palestinian reporter from the West Bank, and 16 others, 2 of which were children, 55 were injured.*
Then again, Mazen al-Tumeizi, was a Palestinian reporter from the West Bank, standing near a disabled fighting vehicle in the Green Zone outside Baghdad, with a television crew working for the Arabic satellite channel Al-Arabiya, and the rest were only anonymous Iraqi.
No reason for anyone in the West to be concerned.
* Casualty numbers from CBC.ca, CNN still lists no report.
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Virtual_Burlesque
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Edited to add:
I double posted, so here is the story [& URL] in question.
US missile attack kills 13 civilians in Iraq
By Patrick Cockburn in Baghdad
13 September 2004
"I am a journalist. I'm dying, I'm dying," screamed Mazen al-Tumeizi, a correspondent for the Arabic television channel al-Arabiya, after shrapnel from a rocket fired by an American helicopter slammed into his back.
Twelve others were killed and 61 wounded by rockets from two US helicopters on Haifa Street in central Baghdad. They had fired into a crowd milling around a burning Bradley fighting vehicle that had been hit by a rocket or bomb hours before.
"The helicopter fired on the Bradley to destroy it after it had been hit earlier and it was on fire," said Major Phil Smith of the 1st Cavalry Division. "It was for the safety of the people around it."
Mr Tumeizi, a Palestinian, was the sixth Arab journalist to be killed by American troops since Baghdad was captured last year. The videotape of his last moments shows the Bradley blazing in the distance and a crowd of young men celebrating its destruction, but it shows no reason why the helicopters should open fire.
Many of those hit by the rockets in Haifa Street, in a tough neighbourhood of tower blocks notorious as a centre of resistance to the occupation, were on their way to work. "We are just ordinary workers. We are just trying to live," said Haidar Yahyiah, 23, sobbing with pain from a broken leg as he lay in bed in nearby Karkh hospital.
He and others described how they had been woken by the sound of explosions in Haifa Street in the early dawn. They had been sleeping on the roofs because it is too hot in the Baghdad summer to sleep inside. They saw a vehicle on fire. But it was several hours later, at about 8am, that they sallied out.
By then US troops had already removed four lightly wounded soldiers from the Bradley. Young men and children had swarmed over the vehicle, cheering triumphantly, waving black flags and setting it ablaze again. The US military said that a Kiowa, a light reconnaissance and attack helicopter, fired rockets at the Bradley to destroy weapons and ammunition on board. But it is evident from the al-Arabiya video that the rockets landed among people standing or walking far away from the Bradley.
Hamid Ali Khadum was on his way to work when he was hit. "At first I thought I had just tripped over dead people but then I realised I was wounded myself," he said as he lay in Karkh hospital waiting for an operation on his heavily bandaged left leg. The rest of his body was peppered with shrapnel. A male nurse standing nearby said: "This happens not just in Haifa Street but in all Baghdad, and not just in Baghdad but in all Iraq."
The slaughter in Haifa Street took place only a few hundred yards from the heavily defended International Zone (what used to be called the Green Zone) which houses the headquarters of the Iraqi government and its American ally. It is a measure of the military failure of the US occupation that it has failed to assume control of this Sunni Muslim neighbourhood in the heart of the capital.
Early yesterday, insurgents fired more than a dozen rockets and mortars into the International Zone. The zone contains the US embassy and Saddam Hussein's Republican Palace, which the US is about to refurbish at a cost of $200m (£110m). US troops set up road blocks around the city, causing enormous traffic jams, in an unavailing attempt to catch whoever was launching the mortars.
There was scattered violence elsewhere in Baghdad, in which 12 people died and 41 were injured. Colonel Alaa Bashir, the police chief of the Yarmouk district in west Baghdad, was killed by a bomb while on patrol. A suicide bomber blew himself up in a vehicle packed with explosives at the gates to Abu Ghraib prison - he was the only one to die. A US plane attacked a machine-gun team from the Mehdi Army in their stronghold in Sadr City in east Baghdad.
In Ramadi, a city controlled by insurgents west of Baghdad, 10 people were killed and 40 wounded in fighting, according to the local hospital. A US Humvee was also set ablaze, but casualties were unknown.
South of Baghdad, three Polish soldiers were killed during an attack, further indicating that violence has spread to all parts of Iraq, even though up to six months ago it had been largely confined to the so-called Sunni triangle or the Sunni Muslim provinces around Baghdad. Gunmen from Shia areas have now joined in.
12 September 2004 18:39
I double posted, so here is the story [& URL] in question.
US missile attack kills 13 civilians in Iraq
By Patrick Cockburn in Baghdad
13 September 2004
"I am a journalist. I'm dying, I'm dying," screamed Mazen al-Tumeizi, a correspondent for the Arabic television channel al-Arabiya, after shrapnel from a rocket fired by an American helicopter slammed into his back.
Twelve others were killed and 61 wounded by rockets from two US helicopters on Haifa Street in central Baghdad. They had fired into a crowd milling around a burning Bradley fighting vehicle that had been hit by a rocket or bomb hours before.
"The helicopter fired on the Bradley to destroy it after it had been hit earlier and it was on fire," said Major Phil Smith of the 1st Cavalry Division. "It was for the safety of the people around it."
Mr Tumeizi, a Palestinian, was the sixth Arab journalist to be killed by American troops since Baghdad was captured last year. The videotape of his last moments shows the Bradley blazing in the distance and a crowd of young men celebrating its destruction, but it shows no reason why the helicopters should open fire.
Many of those hit by the rockets in Haifa Street, in a tough neighbourhood of tower blocks notorious as a centre of resistance to the occupation, were on their way to work. "We are just ordinary workers. We are just trying to live," said Haidar Yahyiah, 23, sobbing with pain from a broken leg as he lay in bed in nearby Karkh hospital.
He and others described how they had been woken by the sound of explosions in Haifa Street in the early dawn. They had been sleeping on the roofs because it is too hot in the Baghdad summer to sleep inside. They saw a vehicle on fire. But it was several hours later, at about 8am, that they sallied out.
By then US troops had already removed four lightly wounded soldiers from the Bradley. Young men and children had swarmed over the vehicle, cheering triumphantly, waving black flags and setting it ablaze again. The US military said that a Kiowa, a light reconnaissance and attack helicopter, fired rockets at the Bradley to destroy weapons and ammunition on board. But it is evident from the al-Arabiya video that the rockets landed among people standing or walking far away from the Bradley.
Hamid Ali Khadum was on his way to work when he was hit. "At first I thought I had just tripped over dead people but then I realised I was wounded myself," he said as he lay in Karkh hospital waiting for an operation on his heavily bandaged left leg. The rest of his body was peppered with shrapnel. A male nurse standing nearby said: "This happens not just in Haifa Street but in all Baghdad, and not just in Baghdad but in all Iraq."
The slaughter in Haifa Street took place only a few hundred yards from the heavily defended International Zone (what used to be called the Green Zone) which houses the headquarters of the Iraqi government and its American ally. It is a measure of the military failure of the US occupation that it has failed to assume control of this Sunni Muslim neighbourhood in the heart of the capital.
Early yesterday, insurgents fired more than a dozen rockets and mortars into the International Zone. The zone contains the US embassy and Saddam Hussein's Republican Palace, which the US is about to refurbish at a cost of $200m (£110m). US troops set up road blocks around the city, causing enormous traffic jams, in an unavailing attempt to catch whoever was launching the mortars.
There was scattered violence elsewhere in Baghdad, in which 12 people died and 41 were injured. Colonel Alaa Bashir, the police chief of the Yarmouk district in west Baghdad, was killed by a bomb while on patrol. A suicide bomber blew himself up in a vehicle packed with explosives at the gates to Abu Ghraib prison - he was the only one to die. A US plane attacked a machine-gun team from the Mehdi Army in their stronghold in Sadr City in east Baghdad.
In Ramadi, a city controlled by insurgents west of Baghdad, 10 people were killed and 40 wounded in fighting, according to the local hospital. A US Humvee was also set ablaze, but casualties were unknown.
South of Baghdad, three Polish soldiers were killed during an attack, further indicating that violence has spread to all parts of Iraq, even though up to six months ago it had been largely confined to the so-called Sunni triangle or the Sunni Muslim provinces around Baghdad. Gunmen from Shia areas have now joined in.
12 September 2004 18:39
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Colleen Thomas
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According to Janes, the Bradley fighting vehicle is armed with:
A 25mm chain gun
A tow missile launcher
a 7.62 mm coaxil machine gun.
The tow missile launcher in and of itself would be enough to open an APC and could inflict crippling damage on a tank. The propellant from the 25mm gun's shells could provide several improvised anti-personelle charges or perhaps enough to make one of the car bombs that originally disabled this vehicle.
In this kind of low-intensity conflict, insurgents make use of practically any munitions they can get their hands on, from old artillery shells to unexploded bomblets from cluster bombs.
A disabled american vehicle is an explosion waiting to happen. The odds are strongly in favor of something being on the way, helicopter, artillery or missile, to render it no use to the enemy. Standing near one is just dumb. You are playing russian roulette if you do.
If there are a lot of people around one, displaying the flag of a terrorist organization, it seem reasonable that the pilot will assume this is exactly what he came to prevent, insurgents looting the vehicle and will carry out his fire mission.
I haven't seen the video, in fact I am unlikely to see it, I would suspect it will be judged NAQ by american broadcasters. Judgeing from the Ap report, this result, while tragic, was entierly predictable.
If people are going to cluster around disabled vehicles they will keep getting hurt and killed. It isn't like this is a new SOP that no one knew about. One of the first scenes I remember from in Baghdad was a trashed out M1A2 that the embed reported we had destroyed ourselves when an RPG knocked a track off, rather than letting it fall into enemy hands.
I will say no more on this thread. I think I have made the only point I intended to make and since I have little else to say, I would just be running it into the ground.
-Colly
A 25mm chain gun
A tow missile launcher
a 7.62 mm coaxil machine gun.
The tow missile launcher in and of itself would be enough to open an APC and could inflict crippling damage on a tank. The propellant from the 25mm gun's shells could provide several improvised anti-personelle charges or perhaps enough to make one of the car bombs that originally disabled this vehicle.
In this kind of low-intensity conflict, insurgents make use of practically any munitions they can get their hands on, from old artillery shells to unexploded bomblets from cluster bombs.
A disabled american vehicle is an explosion waiting to happen. The odds are strongly in favor of something being on the way, helicopter, artillery or missile, to render it no use to the enemy. Standing near one is just dumb. You are playing russian roulette if you do.
If there are a lot of people around one, displaying the flag of a terrorist organization, it seem reasonable that the pilot will assume this is exactly what he came to prevent, insurgents looting the vehicle and will carry out his fire mission.
I haven't seen the video, in fact I am unlikely to see it, I would suspect it will be judged NAQ by american broadcasters. Judgeing from the Ap report, this result, while tragic, was entierly predictable.
If people are going to cluster around disabled vehicles they will keep getting hurt and killed. It isn't like this is a new SOP that no one knew about. One of the first scenes I remember from in Baghdad was a trashed out M1A2 that the embed reported we had destroyed ourselves when an RPG knocked a track off, rather than letting it fall into enemy hands.
I will say no more on this thread. I think I have made the only point I intended to make and since I have little else to say, I would just be running it into the ground.
-Colly
R. Richard
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People in Iraq standing around a vehicle disabled by a roadside bomb are suicidally stupid.
If the same people allow children to also cluster around the vehicle, then the people are, in effect, killing their own children.
JMHO.
If the same people allow children to also cluster around the vehicle, then the people are, in effect, killing their own children.
JMHO.
Virtual_Burlesque
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Journalists aside, firing into a crowd (17 dead, 55 injured = 72 at least) is a f**king stupid way of winning hearts and minds, or have we given up on everything but control of the oil?
Iraqi sentiment aside, there is the question of journalists reaction.
Say what you wish, but killing a news reporter while he is on the air and in contact with his audience is a catastrophically stupid action.
Perhaps American media are so whipped that they will try to ignore the implications.
No journalist worth his salt outside of America (inside as well, actually) will refrain from comment.
Iraqi sentiment aside, there is the question of journalists reaction.
Say what you wish, but killing a news reporter while he is on the air and in contact with his audience is a catastrophically stupid action.
Perhaps American media are so whipped that they will try to ignore the implications.
No journalist worth his salt outside of America (inside as well, actually) will refrain from comment.
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Colleen Thomas said:
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Colleen Thomas
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You can take your anti-americanism and stuff it Cv. This is a free forum and I will continue to point out pertinent facts, your sarcasm notwithstanding.
I posted an excerpt from the Ap report. It clearly says there was a flag being displayed, even notes the colors of it.
You don't know me well enough to comment on my childhood. And if you think I am going to sit back while you make every incident you can find into another America bashing thread, you don't know me at all.
-Colly
I posted an excerpt from the Ap report. It clearly says there was a flag being displayed, even notes the colors of it.
You don't know me well enough to comment on my childhood. And if you think I am going to sit back while you make every incident you can find into another America bashing thread, you don't know me at all.
-Colly
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You must also understand it is not the chopper crews decision to fire. Know procedure in these situations, I can safely say the crew radioed a report on the situation and were ordered to fire.
An order I would not disagree with under the circumstances.
An order I would not disagree with under the circumstances.
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You can go to hell too.Rideme Cowgirl said:
Plus, how's my threads "America" bashing?
Virtual_Burlesque
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Some in the crowd were waving a black flag, as this AP photograph shows, but this was ”several hours after” the Bradley was disabled. The US troops had already removed four lightly wounded soldiers. Young men and children had swarmed over the vehicle, cheering triumphantly, waving black flags and setting it ablaze again.
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/photos/iraq_cp_6356166.jpg
The dumbest statement so far is awarded to Major Phil Smith for this gem:
“The helicopter fired on the Bradley to destroy it after it had been hit earlier and it was on fire," said Major Phil Smith of the 1st Cavalry Division. "It was for the safety of the people around it."
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/photos/iraq_cp_6356166.jpg
The dumbest statement so far is awarded to Major Phil Smith for this gem:
“The helicopter fired on the Bradley to destroy it after it had been hit earlier and it was on fire," said Major Phil Smith of the 1st Cavalry Division. "It was for the safety of the people around it."
minsue
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For fuck's sake, CV. Arguing, even passionately, is one thing, but attacking a person for disagreeing with you is quite another altogether. Posts like this are the reason there have been so many laments of late about the liberals on the political threads.
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I swear, your right leg is two inches shorter than the left.minsue said:
"Dumb fucks." said "the snake" from that best selling book called, "The Bible" (I'm not sure who's version it was).
Virtual_Burlesque
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There IS a CNN report on the incident, halfway down an omnibus article covering all the violence from this Sunday.
It doesn’t offer any substantially new information, but it provides a strangely surreal feeling that you are reading about a second, separate but similar event.
Officials: 31 killed in widespread Iraqi fighting
Third heading down in list of four.
Intense firefight
On Baghdad's Haifa Street, a two-and-a-half-hour firefight between insurgents and Iraqi security forces -- backed by U.S. military -- left 13 people dead and 55 others wounded, according to Ministry of Health officials.
Residents said most of the casualties in the gunfight occurred after a crowd gathered around a burning U.S. military vehicle and was fired on by a helicopter. The U.S. military said the crowd was made up of insurgents and looters.
Two journalists were killed in the attack, according to their employers. An Iraqi cameraman working for Reuters was wounded when a U.S. helicopter fired on the crowd, a Reuters spokesperson said.
The airstrike also killed a producer for the Arabic-language television network Al-Arabiya, according to Nihad Ya'qub, an executive director with the network.
Mazin al-Tumaidi, a Palestinian, was near the U.S. tank as Iraqis chanted around the burning vehicle, Ya'qub said. A U.S. helicopter fired a rocket at the crowd, killing al-Tumaidi, Ya'qub said.
According to the U.S. military version of the incident, a U.S. Bradley fighting vehicle en route to help a patrol on Haifa Street was hit by a car bomb.
Four U.S. soldiers were wounded in the attack, according to U.S. military spokesman Maj. Smith. As the Bradley crew was being evacuated, the U.S. forces came under small-arms fire and attack from grenades and Molotov cocktails, Smith said.
Smith said a U.S. helicopter was firing on the vehicle, to destroy it and prevent it from falling into insurgents' hands.
The Bradley was surrounded by looters trying to remove weapons and other items from it, Smith said. They were "not innocent civilians," he added.
Several witnesses disputed the U.S. military's account, saying the crowd gathered around the burning vehicle, chanting "God is great," throwing stones at the vehicle and hitting it with metal pipes, but were not firing toward the U.S. forces or looting the vehicle.
It doesn’t offer any substantially new information, but it provides a strangely surreal feeling that you are reading about a second, separate but similar event.
Officials: 31 killed in widespread Iraqi fighting
Third heading down in list of four.
Intense firefight
On Baghdad's Haifa Street, a two-and-a-half-hour firefight between insurgents and Iraqi security forces -- backed by U.S. military -- left 13 people dead and 55 others wounded, according to Ministry of Health officials.
Residents said most of the casualties in the gunfight occurred after a crowd gathered around a burning U.S. military vehicle and was fired on by a helicopter. The U.S. military said the crowd was made up of insurgents and looters.
Two journalists were killed in the attack, according to their employers. An Iraqi cameraman working for Reuters was wounded when a U.S. helicopter fired on the crowd, a Reuters spokesperson said.
The airstrike also killed a producer for the Arabic-language television network Al-Arabiya, according to Nihad Ya'qub, an executive director with the network.
Mazin al-Tumaidi, a Palestinian, was near the U.S. tank as Iraqis chanted around the burning vehicle, Ya'qub said. A U.S. helicopter fired a rocket at the crowd, killing al-Tumaidi, Ya'qub said.
According to the U.S. military version of the incident, a U.S. Bradley fighting vehicle en route to help a patrol on Haifa Street was hit by a car bomb.
Four U.S. soldiers were wounded in the attack, according to U.S. military spokesman Maj. Smith. As the Bradley crew was being evacuated, the U.S. forces came under small-arms fire and attack from grenades and Molotov cocktails, Smith said.
Smith said a U.S. helicopter was firing on the vehicle, to destroy it and prevent it from falling into insurgents' hands.
The Bradley was surrounded by looters trying to remove weapons and other items from it, Smith said. They were "not innocent civilians," he added.
Several witnesses disputed the U.S. military's account, saying the crowd gathered around the burning vehicle, chanting "God is great," throwing stones at the vehicle and hitting it with metal pipes, but were not firing toward the U.S. forces or looting the vehicle.
Virtual_Burlesque
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Heavy fighting erupts across Iraq
CBC News (www.cbc.ca)
Last Updated Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:15:49 EDT
Excerpt
(Italics added by VB)
. . . "They call it the 'death street,'" said local resident Hussam Mehdi. "No police force, no American soldiers can cross here without being shot at."
The fighting began when a U.S. patrol passed through the neighborhood.
"I heard four mortar rounds shot from this area. After that an American convoy, an armored American convoy came in here. Then the people started shooting and the Americans shot back," said Mehdi.
Scores of Iraqis were killed and injured in the fighting ferried to nearby hospitals. Iraqi insurgents managed to disable a Bradley fighting vehicle, injuring four American soldiers. Witnesses said American aircraft fired on the burning tank, killing those standing near it.
"There was a tank it was all burned up and there were some kids all around it. Two helicopters came in and shot the tank," said Fadhel Karim, who runs a pastry shop near the scene of the fighting.
On Sunday, U.S. forces were also presiding over the opening of a new state-of-the-art clinic in a poorer section of the city. A gift to Iraqis, courtesy of U.S. taxpayers, the clinic includes a 24-hour emergency room, a radiology lab and a pharmacy. Maj. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, commander of the Baghdad-based 1st Cavalry Division, said through acts line this, the army hopes to win the trust and confidence of Iraqis and thereby quell the insurgency. . . .
CBC News (www.cbc.ca)
Last Updated Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:15:49 EDT
Excerpt
(Italics added by VB)
. . . "They call it the 'death street,'" said local resident Hussam Mehdi. "No police force, no American soldiers can cross here without being shot at."
The fighting began when a U.S. patrol passed through the neighborhood.
"I heard four mortar rounds shot from this area. After that an American convoy, an armored American convoy came in here. Then the people started shooting and the Americans shot back," said Mehdi.
Scores of Iraqis were killed and injured in the fighting ferried to nearby hospitals. Iraqi insurgents managed to disable a Bradley fighting vehicle, injuring four American soldiers. Witnesses said American aircraft fired on the burning tank, killing those standing near it.
"There was a tank it was all burned up and there were some kids all around it. Two helicopters came in and shot the tank," said Fadhel Karim, who runs a pastry shop near the scene of the fighting.
On Sunday, U.S. forces were also presiding over the opening of a new state-of-the-art clinic in a poorer section of the city. A gift to Iraqis, courtesy of U.S. taxpayers, the clinic includes a 24-hour emergency room, a radiology lab and a pharmacy. Maj. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, commander of the Baghdad-based 1st Cavalry Division, said through acts line this, the army hopes to win the trust and confidence of Iraqis and thereby quell the insurgency. . . .
SugerWhite
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One should study law because law is the enemy of natural justice and one should wish to know one's enemy.
BlackShanglan
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SugerWhite said:
The only "natural justice" I have ever encountered involves the people with the biggest, pointiest sticks being declared "right." I think it a canard.
ChilledVodka III
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Fuck off, Lucky.
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